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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Shropshire => Topic started by: bully on Thursday 27 November 25 21:42 GMT (UK)
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Hello again all,
I'm looking at a Frederick Attwell who married Louisa Rowley at Wellington, Shropshire 1886.
It says Louisa was born 1865, but I'm wandering where Frederick was born and when.
He had a son with Louisa, Reginald Frederick who was born in Oakengates, Shropshire 1920, who I believe went on to be a footballer.
He died in Burnley.
Thanks
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I think you have the wrong Frederick. Louisa would be a bit old to be having a child in 1920 if b 1865
Looking at Reginald on 1921, his father is Frederick, but much younger
Think this is his birth - forenames reversed
Frederick R Attwell
Q2 1920
Shifnal Volume 6a p1230
Mother's Maiden Name Greenfield
Frederick Attwell
Edith G R Greenfield
Marriage Q4 1919
Shifnal Vol 6a p1630
Think this Frederick might be the son of the Frederick and Louisa you've posted about, so Reginald is the grandson
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Frederick & Louisa
Are you saying the Frederick Hatfield 1886 marriage is them?
Can you please post all the details on the marriage certificate.
Have you found them in 1891?
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Freebmd marriage entry shows him as Frederick Hatfield not Attwell. What is the source of your info that says Louisa was b 1865. Are you taking your info from somebody's tree?
Where do they fit into your FH?
Have you looked at census entries 1891-1921 to find his birthplace?
Censuses to 1911 are free to search on www.familysearch.org
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Hi again,
Yes, it was info that was on familysearch, so was just trying to see how it comes together.
I will check the other census details.
Thanks
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You can see Louisa and her children in 1911 & 1901
Confirming Attwell/Rowley with the birth entries in GRO
Baptisms of some children are on FindMyPast, and for one lot Frederick is a Private in the R.E.
His military record is on FindMyPast -age 19 & 1 month 24th May 1878 names father as JOHN of Woodhouse Pitts, St George’s, Wellington.
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Hi Bully
Info from other trees is often badly researched & unreliable. Others then copy that info.
We always advise you do you your own research using info you know yourself to be correct
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Hi,
Sorry guys my original message wasn't correct, as was pointed out.
The footballers father was Frederick Attwell born 1895, who indeed married Edith G R Greenfield at Shifnal.
Then the other Frederick, who married Louisa, is the footballers grandad.
It's this guy who's birth I was looking for.
The 1865 birth date, was from her marraige, which matches the 1901.
Something must have happened to her husband, as he's not on it.
Cheers
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A football farewell THE son of a Burney footballing legend has died this week. Mr Ronald Frederick Attwell died, aged 50, at his Clarence Street home on Monday. He was found by his mother, Mrs Eileen Attwell of Walsden Grove, whose late husband Reg was one of the most famous names to wear the claret and blue shirt in the 40s and 50s and was in the 1947 cup final against Chariton. When he died in 1986 his ashes were scattered on Turf Moor and his mother is hoping her son's can have the same resting place. “He loved football and was a very good player in his younger days,” said Mrs Attwell, who said that her son had been unwell for a long time. He attended Todmorden Road and Bumley Wood Schools and had worked at various companies in the town. In his younger days he emigrated to Canada for a time but later retumned to Burnley. “He lived alone but had an awful lot of friends in the town,” said his mother. She has two more sons, Donald and Kenneth and a daughter, Mrs Marilyn Wilson. Mr Attwell will be cremated at Bumley Crematorium on Monday moming. )
Published: Friday 31 January 1997
Newspaper: Burnley Express
Any help ?
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Published: Saturday 24 January 1953
Newspaper: South Yorkshire Times and Mexborough & Swinton Times
January 1953.
Footballer Cleared A charge against Reginald Frederick Attwell (32. )the Burnley left half, alleging he was drunk in charge of a van was dismissed by Burnley magistrates on Monday.
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Published: Friday 05 December 1986
Newspaper: Burnley Express
There is an article about him, also a photograph of him with the team.
I can't attach images due to a problem with my settings.
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Back to the question. Frederick senior
As per my reply #5
Louisa is a widow in 1901. She has 6 month old twins. Suggesting a late 1899 or more likely a 1900 death for William,
So have you already purchased but ruled out this death?
Deaths Sep 1900 (>99%)
Attwell Frederick 41 Wellington, Sh. 6a 451
The age of that man matches the one in the military record I mentioned. I believe it is possible to purchase the record as a one off from FindMyPast. Not sure if a one month sub is also possible.
So birth is about 1859. Army file says St George’s, Wellington. Haven’t found it though.
Added…if still doubtful about the army file, note intended address at Discharge and compare with birth places of George & Fred.
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Could be this one
Wellington Guardian 26 May 1900
Edited
An Old Soldier AND Relief.— The Rev. W. P. Nock alluded to the case of Frederick Attwell, old soldier, who, reported the ‘'Journal” last week, has been compelled, owing to his being destitute, apply to the Board for relief.
He did not think the man would be able to work again. He bad two medals and five clasp*, as well as the Khedive’s star, and had fought in the Zulu, Egyptian, and Soudan wars.
Mr. Noel: said the case bad been left in the hands of the doctor. —
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Deleted part because I misread. Too early in the morning
However… Recommended reading! It completely tallies with the enlistment records. Full story of his career! Wounds, current situation. How his wife is helping, and how she wouldn’t pawn his medals because he had gone through too much to earn them.
Wellington Journal
19 May 1900
Page 9
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And the burial matches the place of birth
Frederick Atwell
Age 41
Burial 2 Aug 1900 St George's, Shropshire
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Good Morning all,
I seem to be having problems finding anything on the census pages for Frederick's birth details.
No clues at all.
Help
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1881, he is at Aldershot
Frederick Attwell Soldier Single Male 21 Soldier r e Willington, Shropshire, England
However, have you looked at the attestation.
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You can see Louisa and her children in 1911 & 1901
Confirming Attwell/Rowley with the birth entries in GRO
Baptisms of some children are on FindMyPast, and for one lot Frederick is a Private in the R.E.
His military record is on FindMyPast -age 19 & 1 month on 24th May 1878 names father as JOHN of Woodhouse Pitts, St George’s, Wellington.
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Woodhouse pit was a coal mine. Not much help really.
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Frederick Attwell is difficult to find, no obvious birth registration and unable to find any Attwell or similar names in 1861 or 1871.
There's lots on Freebmd for Shropshire but nothing fits.
In 1876 a Frederick Attwell of St George's was fined for being drunk. Wellington Journal 6 May 1876. Mind you half of Wellington also appeared in court, a good May day for a lot of them.
It might be worth getting the marriage certificate Hatfield, / Rowley. Is it an error or has his name changed.
Even 1891 census for the family can't be found, not by me anyway.
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I couldnt find anything for Fred either ::)
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We know from newspapers and army records that Frederick Attwell was born c 1860 in St George's, Shropshire. After leaving the army he was a coal miner
1901 has Louisa also born St George's, daughter Maud b 1889, same place.
Alice Maud Attwell on birth index and baptism.
Baptism Date 23 Jan 1889 Baptism Place St George's, Shropshire.
Working sideways I looked for an Alice or Maud born Shropshire and found this family.
1891 12 Tramway, Fenton, Stoke on Trent
All born St George's Shropshire
Frederick Elks 31Head coal miner
Louisa Elks 29 Wife
Alice M Elks 2Daughter
Later children.
George and Frederick were born in Staffordshire, Mary , Clarence and Ivy in St George's Shropshire.
Looks like the family just moved away for a while.
Elks ? Maybe there was no intention to deceive, perhaps whoever filled in the census misheard.
I'm 99% sure that this is the Attwell family because there are other records for Elks.
1861 / 1871, still searching. ;D
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Yes, I was coming at it from the other way,
Army record says Addresss at Discharge was 15 Old Tramways Rd, Fenton Potteries, Staffordshire.
Being at no 12 at census rather than 15 seems good enough in the face of all other evidence.
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Re my previous reply.
I meant NO other records for Elks.
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Yes, I was coming at it from the other way,
Army record says Addresss at Discharge was 15 Old Tramways Rd, Fenton Potteries, Staffordshire.
Being at no 12 at census rather than 15 seems good enough in the face of all other evidence.
However … At No 15 are Joseph Pagett 31, his wife Elizabeth 32, Samuel 14, Louisa, 7, all born St Georges, plus George, 4, and Jabez 1. B Longton & Fenton Respectively.
Jabez’s birth
PAGET, JABEZ ROWLEY
GRO Reference: 1889 J Quarter in STOKE UPON TRENT Volume 06B Page 261
So not as useful as I was hoping.
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Re my previous reply.
I meant NO other records for Elks.
But in 1881 at St Georges, Wellington, there is a Joseph Elks, wife Charlotte & family just a few households down from the Pagets
See also HELKS & ELKES for records. (Charlotte was nee Roberts :'()
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Yes, I was coming at it from the other way,
Army record says Addresss at Discharge was 15 Old Tramways Rd, Fenton Potteries, Staffordshire.
Being at no 12 at census rather than 15 seems good enough in the face of all other evidence.
However … At No 15 are Joseph Pagett 31, his wife Elizabeth 32, Samuel 14, Louisa, 7, all born St Georges, plus George, 4, and Jabez 1. B Longton & Fenton Respectively.
Jabez’s birth
PAGET, JABEZ ROWLEY
GRO Reference: 1889 J Quarter in STOKE UPON TRENT Volume 06B Page 261
So not as useful as I was hoping.
1871
Samuel Rowley47Head
Ann Rowley46Wife
Mary A Rowley16
Eliza Rowley13
Louisa Rowley 9
Drucilla Rowley3
Ecclesiastical parishSt George
Shropshire
Registration DistrictWellington
I think Louisa Attwell and Eliza Elks are sisters.
Not that it matters really.
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Eliza Paget is the sister. (Not Elks)
But yes. No better off.
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Hi all,
According to Fred's army records he was discharged at Chatham in 1894 so, I don't get how he's in stoke on the 1891 census with his family, and is a coalminer.....
Apparently it has his dad down as a John
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Deleted part because I misread. Too early in the morning
However… Recommended reading! It completely tallies with the enlistment records. Full story of his career! Wounds, current situation. How his wife is helping, and how she wouldn’t pawn his medals because he had gone through too much to earn them.
Wellington Journal
19 May 1900
Page 9
This explains why he was a coalminer in 1891.
In Fredericks own account.
Joined Royal Engineers in May 1878
Sent to Aldershot and on to Chatham.
Dec 1878 went to South Africa.
1881 returned to England.
1882 sent to Egypt.
1886 he was transferred to Reserves and completed 8 years in that service.
All fits in with the date you have of 1894.
The 1886 marriage certificate will give his occupation at that time and hopefully more details of his father.
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I can't believe this chap changed his surname on at least two occasions, Hatfield when he married and Elks on the 1891!
It doesn't half make it difficult to find him.
Even his dad John, from his army details, can't find a John Attwell, or Hatfield, or Elks.
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Do you have the Hatfield marriage certificate yet?