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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Shropshire => England => Shropshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: mr_edd on Saturday 15 November 25 12:23 GMT (UK)
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Hello All
I wonder if someone might be willing to offer me a fresh pair of eyes & an unbiased opinion on this.
I will stick to the facts as best I can but before doing so must say I have spent the last twenty years tracing back the wrong JONES family in Oswestry, I only learned last week that I had bought the wrong birth certificate some twenty years ago & as a result of "Ancestry Hints & badly put together trees" is what led to my big mistake.
My Great Grandfather was Edward Jones born Oswestry c1855 he married Ann Williams at Morton Parish Church 21 Jul 1876 aged 24 (1852) & there is a line through the father. Edward's occupation was Collier.
When my Grandmother Elizabeth Jones was born in Oswestry a year later in 1877 father is recorded as Edward Jones a Coal Miner (Edward also appears in some censuses as a Well Sinker).
In the census of 1871 Edward is with a Joseph Jones & wife Elizabeth & down as aged 16 (1855) a BOARDER.
In 1861 Joseph & Elizabeth have a Mathew E Jones aged 6 (1855) BOARDER, birthplace N.K
I cannot find a Mathew E Jones birth, or death or later census for him.
In 1891 Edward is visiting Joseph & Elizabeth & Joseph now calls Edward his SON, he calls Edward's wife his Daughter in law, & Edward's Children as his Grandchildren. So it looks like there was acceptance eventually.
Joseph Jones had been a nightmare because there are two that get mixed up in Ancestry trees, one born 1818 Membury / Oswestry & the other born Whittington 1832
Years ago I went down the 1832 route discovering that that Joseph had been born Joseph Richards to Thomas Richards & Elizabeth Jones in Whittington. That Joseph Jones had married an Eliza Niccolls & I saw Joseph's father as Thomas Richards. In1841 Joseph is Joseph Richards a scholar, in 1851 he is Joseph Richards a Mason & 1871 he is Joseph Jones a Stone Mason, all three of those censuses were on Willow Street.
Like I said that's now the wrong family for me.
The Joseph Jones for me is the one born 1818 Membury / Oswestry, his father was John Jones a Parish Clerk of Morton.
Joseph married on 5 Nov 1841 at St Oswald's, Oswestry to an Elizabeth Jones! so of course her name did not change.
Elizabeth's father was David Jones an AG LAB from Sweeney.
The one & only Child in Joseph & Elizabeth's marriage was Edward c1855 & considering they married some 13 or 14 years prior then that's a long time for a Child, My guess is Joseph was infertile & perhaps Elizabeth was desperate to be a Mother & went & did the deed with a male unknown.
Edward lived mainly around Sweeney, Morton & Nant-Y-Caws as did Joseph & Elizabeth.
For those of you on Ancestry I have built a test tree called "Joseph Jones 1818 test tree" if that helps to understand this mess better!
Despite years of trying I have never found a birth certificate or baptism for the right Edward Jones.
So ultimately my question here is do you think the Mathew E Jones in 1861 is Edward?
Hope someone takes up the challenge & apologies in advance if this one fries your brain!
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Ignore me realized my mistake!
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Possible birth regarding Matthew E
JENKINS, MATTHEW EDWARD - No mother's name recorded so illegitimate
GRO Reference: 1855 M Quarter in OSWESTRY Volume 06A Page 644
Instant digital download available for £3.00 from GRO if unaware.
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/indexes_search.asp Need to register but index is free to search, if not already.
Possibly this child was 'adopted' or taken in by the childless Jones family. Another possibility is Joseph COULD be bio father, but doubtful. MEJ maybe a relative of Joseph or Elizabeth nee Jones, only DNA can help speculation.
Added - Not finding the above MEJ on any census in area, so could be your Edward with links to the Jones census you have.
There is also an adopted son Charles Jones with couple in 1881 age 4, so they were open to raising others. By 1911 he is adopted son of Edward.
Cas
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Thank you for your helpful input CAS
I shall follow that up, Yes the Charles Jones had always bothered me as well. My Grandmother Elizabeth Jones born Oswestry in 1877 according to census has a brother also Charles 1877 but can't find anything about him.
I also note that in 1871 with Joseph & Elizabeth besides Edward Jones 16 BOARDER is a Joseph Jones aged 14 NEPHEW, never figured that one out either.
Regards
Ed
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Hi Cas
I have got the birth certificate, the mother is named.
Birthdate looks like Twenty Second February 1855
The Workhouse Oswestry.
Mother Elizabeth Jenkins
No father named.
Registered 8th March 1855
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Charles Jones - unless you have a birth record to prove he is Edwards son, I would think this is the adopted son from 1881 with Joseph/Elizabeth.
Possible 1861 for Nephew in 1871
Trefonen, Shropshire
Joseph Jones 42 Head
Ann Jones 44 Wife
Sarah Jones 17 Daughter
Watkin Jones 9 Son
William Jones 6 Son
Joseph Jones 4 Son
If access - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/8767/records/19757063
Watkin has mother's maiden Jones, so possibly connected to wife Elizabeth as a brother for Joseph would not be called same. But wife could be a sister to Joseph?
Trefonen is a small village located approximately three miles (4.8 km) south-west of Oswestry, and three miles east of the England-Wales border, in Shropshire, England.
Will see if can locate Elizabeth Jenkins or a death in area....
Cas
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Not locating any EJ which could be childbearing age in or around Oswestry...possibly came from bordering Denbighshire? Only checked 1851
Difficult to pin down without more detail.
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Hi Cas
Further to my last message I just ran DNA & got a great hit on Ancestry.
User name epowrie (unfortunately last online 11 months ago)
half 3rd cousin 1x removed or 4th cousin | Parent 1
Shared DNA: 30 cM across 2 segments
She has a James Jenkins 1836 Oswestry with parents James Jenkins 1801-1851 & Mary Mansell 1799- but she does not record a sister Elizabeth Jenkins 1836. Another tree owner adgysart2
has James Jenkins 1801-1851 marrying Mary Mansell, he has Son James Mansell 1836 Oswestry with other siblings including a sister Elizabeth Jenkins 1837 Oswestry!!!!
What do you make of this now?
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Sounds good Ed, particularly if you have DNA to back up.
Would keep options open as work in progress...
Well done!
Added - Just a friendly reminder....would not copy info from others trees unless you can verifiy, would self research and build your own tree from records.
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1841 has father James not in county but the rest are. Next door down is a Mansell but don't know if connected.
They have missed youngest William age 1 off index with family
1841 - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/8978/records/9607879
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Wonder if this is her?
Baptism - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/62289/records/177077
Different spelling - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/9841/records/56000922
1851 - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/8860/records/8128911
Cas
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Looks a good possible 1861 in Rugby Warwickshire servant to Maude household
Betsey Jenkins, 23 Servant
Estimated Birth Year 1838
Born Oswestry, Shropshire, England
Living Rugby, Warwickshire
1861 - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/8767/records/21319377
Added - possible connection, also looks like a Jane Mansell in same household as nurse age 43.
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Hi Cas
Thank you yes I found the Rugby one then she goes stone cold.
I have cleared up a couple of things, trees have her parents as James Jenkins & Mary Mansell, others Mary Gee.
1841 James & Mary are running an unnamed pub in Oswestry, at rootchat from 2010 says the parents died by 1851 & Mary Gee a widow is running the Albion on Church St, the Jenkins kids are there including Betsy aged 13
You can imagine if the parents have died how the wheels fell off for Betsy, it was perhaps a drinker from the Albion that got her pregnant!
Mary Gee calls Betsy her Niece so that settles that one. As Betsey was bapt Mar 1837 I thought we have just missed civil reg so looked for an younger sibling.
Name: Mother's Maiden Surname:
JENKINS, JOSEPH MAUSELL
GRO Reference: 1839 J Quarter in OSWESTRY Volume 18 Page 159
What's the betting it's MANSELL !!!!! But where is the marriage?
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Powys has the Guardian's minutes & pay books for parents of boarded out Children from 1852 onwards. It's a 240 mile round trip unless I pay for research (or if some kind soul lives around the corner, just saying).
If Joseph & Elizabeth Jones can be seen receiving payments from the Parish then that would nail it on!
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I also cannot find a Jenkins/Mansell marriage but I am sure her surname was Mansell not Gee. There were likely 2 sons William born to couple
JENKINS, WILLIAM mmn MANSELL
GRO Reference: 1840 D Quarter in OSWESTRY Volume 18 Page 161
This was the son in 1841 not indexed with family, died age 10mths
William Jenkins
Burial Age 10 Months
Birth Date abt 1840
Death Date 1841
Burial Date 6 Sep 1841
Burial Place Oswestry, St Oswald's, Shropshire, England
Religion Anglican
Page number 112
Refernce Number P214/A/4/5
JENKINS, WILLIAM mmn MANSELL
GRO Reference: 1842 S Quarter in OSWESTRY Volume 18 Page 142
No images on Anc* familysearch may have?
William Jenkins
Baptism Date 1 Sep 1842
Baptism Place Oswestry,Shropshire,England
Death Date 15 Sep 1844
Father James Jenkins
Mother Mary
FHL Film Number 501462, 501463, 501464
Deaths are on GRO
Also cannot find anything on Elizabeth/Betsy after 1861. It could be possible she was sending money to the Jones family for his keep. Parish relief did not pay out easily if there was someone responsible, why was he not in the workhouse? Although his surname is Jones? By 1871 he would have been able to earn himself.
Cas
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Possible deaths for parents of Elizabeth/Betsy
JENKINS, MARY age 46 (b c 1800)
GRO Reference: 1846 J Quarter in OSWESTRY Volume 18 Page 126
JENKINS, JAMES age 57
GRO Reference: 1847 D Quarter in OSWESTRY Volume 18 Page 115
James Jenkins
Burial Age 57
Birth Date abt 1790
Death Date 1847
Burial Date 1 Oct 1847
Burial Place Oswestry, St Oswald's, Shropshire, England
Religion Anglican
Page number 190
Refernce Number P214/A/4/
(b c 1790, information as good as informant knowledge, or 1841 age is out, but in 1841 age can be rounded down to nearest 5)
Cas
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The Aunt Margaret Gee, widow in 1851 was b c 1810 in Kinton, Shropshire
There is this marriage
Margaret Mansell
Marriage Date 4 May 1824
Marriage Place Great Ness, Shropshire, England
Residence Date 1824
Residence Place Great Ness
Religion Anglican
Spouse Thomas Gee
Page number 9
Reference Number P114/A/3/2
If access - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/62290/records/19896
Pallots - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/5967/records/636076
Kinton is a township within Great Ness
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/SAL/GreatNess
1861 b c 1807 looks likely she is in Derby with son Thomas Ratcliff Gee b c 1827
1861 - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/8767/records/23908519
Thomas married 1869 - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/61409/records/1571498
1871 - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/7619/records/24621179
Possible death in 1878 Derby, age 71
Would check to see if you have any possible shared matches to your Jenkins source, that could connect to extended family
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Thanks Cas
Great work, that Great Ness popped up the other day either for Mary Mansell or Margaret Gee, so she was a Mansell then, perhaps Mary's sister.
I think I need to go to Powys & hope the smoking gun is there otherwise I could be spending money & time for something that's not right, but TBH it looks like it is.
Regards
Ed
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Hello
I know it's a bit late but I have some more on the Jenkins /Mansell bit.
The marriage is over at Wrexham 20.6.1831
Mary Mansell and James Jackyns but looking at the original Jenkyns of Oswestry
wit David Roberts and Eliza? Mansell .
The Mansell girls signed but were a bit shakey with their signatures.
It was by licence and they were bach and spinster.
Mary was born 3rd Sep baptised 24.9.1799 at the Congregational chapel Oswestry d of Richard and Elizabeth Mansell of Kinnersley (farmer and nee Davies on siblings records).
Richard Mansell married Elizabeth Davies 5.2.1799 at Melverley Shrops .Wit William and Sarah Mansell.
Children Mary 1799 ,Margaret 19.1/16.2.1801 ,Richard 18.10/8.12.1802 ,Thomas 10.3./15.5.1804 ,Elizabeth 17.1/22.3.1807 ,William 19.4.1818 at Kinnerley .
Hope that helps
Ciderdrinker
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Well found ciderdrinker, the marriage bond (licence) at NLW has him as Jenkyns
Jenkyns, James, bach., Oswestry, Shropshire to Mansell, Mary, sp., Wrexham, Denbighshire : 1831 Jun 20. ARCHIVES ; St. Asaph A 173/98
Marriage - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/62103/records/840847
Licence - https://discover.library.wales/permalink/44WHELF_NLW/cn21ca/alma99162947702419
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Good Work
Great find that marriage bond.
James seems to have been a bit of a naughty boy.
Son James bapt 4.11.1821 s of James Jenkins servant Church St Sweeney
and Ann Bright.
The baby died aged 7months 15.4.1822
That's the earliest I can see him.
Ciderdrinker
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There is a Richard Mansell b c 1777 retired farmer living in Kinton in census b Kinnerley, dies in 1870 but does not state married or widowed. Up to Ed if thinks there is a connection.
Ed - Pro tools for a month (£7.99) can be a positive as it shows match relationships and gives the smaller under 20cMs. If connected by DNA to this family there must be at least a few small matches to the name Mansell maybe.
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Fantastic work Cas & Ciderdrinker, thank you so much.
Of course what is key for me now is to see if there is anything in payment books for Oswestry Workhouse held at Powys for payments made to Joseph & Elizabeth Jones to pay for the Child's board.
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Just for info, it seems boarding out was not an official practice until around 1868
https://www.workhouses.org.uk/boardingout/
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Hi Cas
I have read online that in the 1850s/1860s there were some informal arrangements made by the Guardians. I am told that the payment books from Oswestry from 1852 are at Powys & should give the names of the fostering families.
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A little thought scenario...
There is nothing to state he was left in the workhouse, only the birth which Elizabeth/Betsy would have used for birth/maternity care, as was the case for the poor outside of home delivery at that time.
As mentioned, it could be possible that Betsy sent money for his care. When infants it was called nurse child.
The info found by Ciderdrinker, reply #20, that father James was living Church Street, SWEENEY in 1821 and family at Church Street in 1841 and 1851 it is a very good possible that the Jones knew the family, or knew of them. (Family were also innkeepers/publicans)
Also as mentioned there is a good possible that he may have a Jones father that is connected to Joseph or Elizabeth. Hence the Jones surname. I would think to try prove/disprove this is Edwards bio family, would be through DNA, as that is the only truth teller nobody can escape from.
Just a few thoughts....
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Hi Cas
Joseph's wife Elizabeth born, Oswestry c1821, had a brother Edward born Oswestry 1810
In the 1871 Elizabeth's brother Edward Jones is at the top of the page aged 61 unmarried followed by Joseph Jones & Elizabeth Jones 1821 (so Joseph's wife / Edward's sister) then followed by Edward Jones my Great Grandfather.
At the foot of the prior page is Elizabeth 1821 & Edward 1810s mother aged 81 born Oswestry, she was born about 1791 in another twist she was an ELLIS & married David Jones an AG LAB from Sweeney.
The witnesses at Edward Jnr's 1876 marriage were Eliza Jones (probably Elizabeth) & an Edward Jones, I have never found a third Edward Jones so I guess he is Elizabeth's brother, he could be the father?
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Only your DNA can give clues Ed, all else is speculation or assumption.
No real relationship to the Jones family until after he married. Maybe after years they thought of him as son and his children were a bonus, they were childless after all. Looks like he looked out for them when older and the boy they adopted.
If Betsy was his mother, she was only around 17/18 when he was born. It could be a childhood sweetheart or as you say someone from the pub.
Maybe build a separate tree for the Jenkins/Mansell family and pad out with extended family. Then go looking to see if any matches with your DNA.
I mentioned pro tools as just finished a month myself. Interesting how the small matches can help make sense of some family lines. Ancestry only show those shared matches 20cMs and above without it.
Good luck
Cas