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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Waterford => Topic started by: Stephen K on Friday 14 November 25 09:36 GMT (UK)
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Kitty Ryan was born circa 1880 in Portlaw, Co. Waterford. I'm unsure what the name Kitty was short for. Her parents were Michael Ryan and Kathleen Ryan (nee Fogarty). She had a brother, Thomas, but I don't know if he was older or younger than Kitty. Different records list Thomas' birth as 1887 - 1881. At the time of Griffiths, the family lived at 33 Queen Street, Portlaw, also known as The Bridge, Portlaw. The Michael Ryan mentioned in Griffiths would have been Kitty's grandfather. It is believed the family continued to live there for many years. I can find no trace of the family in either the 1901 or 1911 census, nor any record of Kitty's birth or baptism. I know her brother Thomas moved to Croydon as he appears in the English 1901 census. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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Start with the information you do have then you can work through other records.
I know her brother Thomas moved to Croydon as he appears in the English 1901 census.
So how old is Thomas in 1901? 1911? 1921? 1939? when he died?
I'm unsure what the name Kitty was short for.
Kitty is usually a nickname for Katherine/Catherine, Kathleen, Kate, etc.
Her parents were Michael Ryan and Kathleen Ryan (nee Fogarty).
Have you searched for their marriage? (registration of Catholic marriages began in 1864.
At the time of Griffiths, the family lived at 33 Queen Street, Portlaw, also known as The Bridge, Portlaw. The Michael Ryan mentioned in Griffiths would have been Kitty's grandfather. It is believed the family continued to live there for many years.
How many years? until 1901? did Kitty's parents stay there or just some other relatives?
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At the time of Griffiths, the family lived at 33 Queen Street, Portlaw, also known as The Bridge, Portlaw. The Michael Ryan mentioned in Griffiths would have been Kitty's grandfather. It is believed the family continued to live there for many years.
In 1911 Katherine Kelly, age 77, was living at 33 Queen's St. in Portlaw- she was single and born in Co. Waterford-
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Waterford/Portlaw/Queen_s_Street/909867/
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai003954557/
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Kitty Ryan was born circa 1880 in Portlaw, Co. Waterford.
If you haven't found her birth registration how do you know she was born in Portlaw? Did she marry? (if so, where and when)
Previous topic on Thomas Ryan-
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=894087.msg7684041#msg7684041
This is Thomas Ryan. Born in Portlaw, Co. Waterford, Ireland, but moved to Croydon as a boy.
Just a quick message to say Thank You. The information you added here has put many things into perspective for the 81-year-old man I was researching for. It has filled a big gap in his knowledge of his family. Thank you so much.
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Keep this family in mind-
Death of Michael Ryan, age 11, father Michael Ryan, coachman, at The Bridge, Portlaw- informant was brother (Pierse)-
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1894/05963/4695174.pdf
Birth- at 3 Curtis St., Portlaw- father Michael Ryan a coachman, mother Catherine HIGGINS-
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/birth_returns/births_1882/02768/2015793.pdf
Michael Ryan and Catherine Higgins married 1868- his father listed as William Ryan-
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/marriage_returns/marriages_1868/11469/8215758.pdf
Daughter Mary (1869), Main St. (father stableman)-
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/birth_returns/births_1869/03381/2239560.pdf
Son Pierce (1871) , Main St. (father servant)-
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/birth_returns/births_1871/03293/2206763.pdf
Daughter Johanna (1874), Main St. (father stableman)-
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/birth_returns/births_1874/03145/2153575.pdf
Daughter Bridget (1878). 6 Bridge St. (father coachman)-
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/birth_returns/births_1878/02974/2089398.p
Pierce Ryan in 1901 and 1911 working as a groom at Curraghmore-
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Waterford/Portlaw/Curraghmore/1768298/
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Waterford/Portlaw/Curraghmore/909657/
Married 1928- father Michael, groom-
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/marriage_returns/marriages_1928/09092/5289179.pdf
Death in 1941- widow Brigid living at Curraghmore-
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1941/04703/4255578.pdf
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Thank you for all that information. I had already discovered this for myself however the gentleman I am researching this for is insistent that Catherine's maiden name was Fogerty and not Higgins.
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Thank you for all that information. I had already discovered this for myself however the gentleman I am researching this for is insistent that Catherine's maiden name was Fogerty and not Higgins.
Would have been nice if you'd mentioned that in original post. Have still been searching for more information but will stop now until my questions have been answered or at least addressed.
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I have just spoken to the person I'm researching for. He tells me he got the Fogarty name from his mother. He never knew her. I always had my doubts that Higgins might have been the correct connection, but because of his insistence, I went along with Fogarty. So now I'm not so sure. Also in this conversation, and just as important, he now tells me that Kitty may in fact be Nettie/Netty.
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I have just spoken to the person I'm researching for. He tells me he got the Fogarty name from his mother. He never knew her. I always had my doubts that Higgins might have been the correct connection, but because of his insistence, I went along with Fogarty. So now I'm not so sure. Also in this conversation, and just as important, he now tells me that Kitty may in fact be Nettie/Netty.
So does this mean he doesn't really know anything about 'Kitty' and that born c1880 in Portlaw is possibly not too accurate?
Nettie/Netty could be nickname for Ann, Hannah, etc. but wondering it it could be Nellie/Nelly (Ellen)?
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What he tells me about Nettie/Kitty is that she is supposed to have had special needs and therefore, probably never married. It seems that any information he has comes from his now long-deceased mother.
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What he tells me about Nettie/Kitty is that she is supposed to have had special needs and therefore, probably never married. It seems that any information he has comes from his now long-deceased mother.
Was 'Kitty' his mother's sibling or aunt? if so, what was his mother's name or the name of the Kitty's sibling she is descended from? Probably easier to find the family through her rather than Kitty or whatever her name was.
*edited*
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Staying with the family of Michael Ryan and Catherine Higgins-
This could be them in 1901 with daughter Joanna[h]-
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Waterford/Kilmeadan/Ballycahane/1768185/
Ballycahane townland just south of Portlaw-
https://www.townlands.ie/waterford/upperthird/guilcagh/kilmeadan/ballycahane/
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Waterford/Kilmeaden/Ballycahane/909544/
Interestingly lists 6 children/4 living.
We have births of 4 (Mary, Pierce, Johannah, Bridget) and know that Pierce and Johanna[h] were alive in 1911. So, who are the two missing children and which of the 6 children died before 1911?
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Firstly thank you for all your help.
I followed your link to the 1911 census but that only brings up Michael, Kate and a daughter Mary. I don't see where you get the list of six.
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Firstly thank you for all your help.
I followed your link to the 1911 census but that only brings up Michael, Kate and a daughter Mary. I don't see where you get the list of six.
Two ways to view the entire page-
1. click on the box 'show all information' on right side (transcription)
2. click on 'household return (form a)' to see actual record-
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai003953658/
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? Death of groom Michael Ryan, widower-
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1926/04989/4360663.pdf
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Bridget Walsh, wife of Pierce Ryan-
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/199432202/bridget-ryan
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https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Waterford/Kilmeaden/Ballycahane/909544/
Interestingly lists 6 children/4 living.
We have births of 4 (Mary, Pierce, Johannah, Bridget) and know that Pierce and Johanna[h] were alive in 1911. So, who are the two missing children and which of the 6 children died before 1911?
Actually, I was forgetting about son Michael (1882-1894) :-\
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Found a second deceased child- Bridget in 1892. Address is 2 Bridge St. Portlaw.
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1892/06024/4715496.pdf
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Finally sorted out most of the puzzle here!
Starting here-
Kitty Ryan was born circa 1880 in Portlaw, Co. Waterford. I'm unsure what the name Kitty was short for. Her parents were Michael Ryan and Kathleen Ryan (nee Fogarty). She had a brother, Thomas, but I don't know if he was older or younger than Kitty. Different records list Thomas' birth as 1887 - 1881. At the time of Griffiths, the family lived at 33 Queen Street, Portlaw, also known as The Bridge, Portlaw. The Michael Ryan mentioned in Griffiths would have been Kitty's grandfather. It is believed the family continued to live there for many years. I can find no trace of the family in either the 1901 or 1911 census, nor any record of Kitty's birth or baptism. I know her brother Thomas moved to Croydon as he appears in the English 1901 census.
Kitty wasn't Kitty (or Catherine) and she wasn't born c1880. Mother was Catherine/Kate Higgins (not Fogerty). Ryans lived in Portlaw but at various addresses there. The Michael Ryan in Griffith's Valuation was not the grandfather of 'Kitty.'
Starting with Thomas as he's the child that can be traced in English records. The 1939 Register apparently gives his date of birth as 6 July 1879 and the 1911 census gives birthplace as Portlaw, Co. Waterford.
This is my source for 1939 Register and original needs to be verified but the date does fit.
https://www.familysearch.org/en/tree/person/details/LC59-RNQ
I've lost count of how many times I searched for Thomas' birth registration but armed with an exact date I searched again. Only one Thomas Ryan registered 1879 in Carrick on Suir district (which includes Portlaw) but parents are James & Bridget and it's not Portlaw.
Then I searched the register pages which covered the July/September quarter of 1879 in Portlaw sub-district. Bingo! Found a son born to Michael Ryan and Catherine Higgins on that date at 6 Bridge Street but father's residence was Curtis St. (more on addresses later). The name given for the child was Michael not Thomas but a stamp on the right side of the page indicates a new (amended) certificate was issued (too difficult to read date)-
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/birth_returns/births_1879/02904/2064011.pdf
to be continued...
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Still can;t find new registration (could have been years later) but here's Thomas' baptism -
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632238?locale=en#page/72/mode/1up
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As I already mentioned, the Ryan family moved about quite a bit. They seem to have moved out of Portlaw itself between 1894 (death of son Michael) and 1901 census.
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/marriage_returns/marriages_1868/11469/8215758.pdf
1869- stableman, Main St.; 1871- servant, Main St.; 1874- stableman, Main St.; 1878- 6 Bridge St., coachman; 1879- Curtis St., coachman; 1882- coachman, 3 Curtis La.; 1892- coachman, 2 Bridge St.; 1894- The Bridge
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Waterford/Kilmeadan/Ballycahane/1768185/
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Waterford/Kilmeaden/Ballycahane/909544/
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1926/04989/4360663.pdf
Here are the 6 children found, 2 died before 1911 (which fits with details in 1911 census)-
1. Mary Ryan (1869)
2. Pierce Ryan (1871-1941)
3. Johanna Ryan (1874)
4. Bridget Ryan (1878-1892)
5. Thomas Ryan (1879)
6. Michael Ryan (1882-1894)
I think 'Kitty' was either Mary or Johanna but leaning toward Mary at this point.
In 1901 Johanna was at home with parents (can't find her in 1911).
In 1911 Mary was at home with parents. She is possibly the Mary Minnie Ryan working for the Marquis of Beresford at Curraghmore in 1901 as a laundry maid.
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Waterford/Portlaw/Curraghmore/1768292/
Miniie is often a nickname for Mary. Remember that her brother Pierce was also employed by the Beresford family in 1901 and 1911.
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Thank you so much for all your help. It has really been a big help.
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Glad that we finally found the right family. I suppose the outstanding issue is the identity of 'Kitty.'
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I think Kitty/Netty will just have to remain a mystery.
Can I ask you one last thing, please?
In an earlier post, you mentioned addresses and said "more about addresses later" Perhaps you could go into this a little further.
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As I already mentioned, the Ryan family moved about quite a bit. They seem to have moved out of Portlaw itself between 1894 (death of son Michael) and 1901 census.
1869- stableman, Main St.; 1871- servant, Main St.; 1874- stableman, Main St.; 1878- 6 Bridge St., coachman; 1879- Curtis St., coachman; 1882- coachman, 3 Curtis La.; 1892- coachman, 2 Bridge St.; 1894- The Bridge