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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: ManchesterJohnson on Thursday 13 November 25 18:03 GMT (UK)
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Ok, so of course I've found Smith's in my line and I'm stuck.
I have my great grandmother's marriage certificate, dated June 6th 1895, marrying James Cain. This certificate has her aged 26 and living at 131 Jersey Street, in Ancoats, Manchester.
Her father is listed at John Smith (of course it would be!), who is deceased but was a labourer.
The only matching census record I can find is from 1871, shwoing a 1 year old Mary Jane Smith living with John and Mary Smith, in Ancoats. I don't know if this is the right Mary Jane, but it's the only one that matches. I can't find any matching records for her, even though I've paid for a few birth certificates.
I've attached the marriage cert so you can see other details. The witness for Mary Jane is listed as Margaret Smith, but I don't know if that's a sister, friend or mother.
Does anyone have any ideas of how I can track her down?
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Possible
Marriages Dec 1864
Burns Mary Manchester 8d 672
Smith John Manchester 8d 672
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Smith dob 13.6.1872--appears in Ancoats 1921 and 1939 war reg with same dob
John William
1872
—
1872
England Roman Catholic Parish Baptisms
Ancoats, St Alban, Lancashire, England
Smith
Mary Jane dob 8.6.1869
1869
—
1869
England Roman Catholic Parish Baptisms
Ancoats, St Alban, Lancashire, England
Smith
Margarita dob 2.9.1865
1865
—
1865
England Roman Catholic Parish Baptisms
Ancoats, St Alban, Lancashire, England
All 3 above baptisms have mmn Burns.
SS
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And that's why I'm on the beginners forum!
Thank you. The Margarita is an interesting link with the marriage cert.
Where did you find the catholic baptism records? And why aren't these births on the GRO database?
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I cannot as yet answer all your questions. The actual baptism/confirmation images are available on Ancestry with transcripts on FindMyPast. My experience often with many early Catholic births show that the parents did not register the births with GRO.
There are many far more experienced rootschatters who I expect will add to your post and also give you further help in the search.
If this is your 1st post--welcome
SS
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"I don't know if this is the right Mary Jane, but it's the only one that matches"
matches...who?.....matches what?
You have obtained this marriage certificate as part of your research into the origins of .....who?
what do you know about your Mary Jane Smith?
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Apologies if I wasn't clear enough but researching these more difficult lines is still new to me.
Mary Jane Smith is my great grandmother. In 1895, she married my GGF James Cain. From that point forward, I have every census record without issue.
From the marriage certificate, I know that her father is John Smith. I have her death certificate in 1921, with James Cain being the widower.
My aunt, the only living relative of the generation previous to me, was born in 1935, so never met her and recalls very little said about her.
I therefore have nothing tangible before 1895. The records I do have all point to her being born 1869/70 but I cannot find a birth record that matches this info..
In the 1871 census, there is an entry for a family, John and Mary Smith, with a daughter, of the right age (1) Mary Jane Smith, living in the same area of Manchester as her husband-to-be's family. There is no other evidential link between that census entry and my GGM. Likewise, I cannot find any other census entries in 1881 or 1891 that show my GGM. The reason I thought that the 1871 census Mary Jane might be my Mary Jane is that it shows John and Mary Smith, the parents in the 1871 record, as being Irish. Despite me only finding one Irish ancestor so far, my DNA says I am >40% Irish!
So I came on here to ask for help in trying to trace the birth of Mary Jane Smith, so that I can identify and trace her parents.
Does that make it a bit clearer or am I still asking the wrong questions?
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It explains things really well, I and others will continue to seek
SS
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Baptism: 17 Sep 1865 St Alban, Ancoats, Lancashire
Margarita Smith - [Child] of Joannis Smith & Mariae (formerly Burns)
Born: 2 Sep 1865
Godparents: Thomas Smith; Anna Burns
Baptised By: J. Gornall
Register: Baptisms 1863 - 1870, Page 40, Entry 205
Source: Original Register at Lancashire Archives
Baptism: 13 Jun 1869 St Alban, Ancoats, Lancashire
Mary Jane Smith - [Child] of John Smith & Mary (formerly Burns)
Born: 8 Jun 1869
Godparents: James Smith; Catherine Smith
Baptised By: J. Gornall
Register: Baptisms 1863 - 1870, Page 132, Entry 656
Source: Original Register at Lancashire Archives
Found here for free. It's easy to use, and you might find more. 🙂
https://www.lan-opc.org.uk/
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Oops. I missed this one SS found. Also on Lancashire Parish Clerks
Baptism: 16 Jun 1872 St Alban, Ancoats, Lancashire
John William Smith - [Child] of John Smith & Mary (formerly Burns)
Born: 13 Jun 1872
Godparents: John Welsh; Ann Burns
Baptised By: J. Gornall
Register: Baptisms 1870 - 1891, Entry 986
Source: Original Register at Lancashire Archives
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This is the marriage SS found. A Civil Marriage, so unfortunately you have to pay for the certificate 🙁
https://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/index.php
SMITHJohn
BURNSMary 1864 Manchester Register Office or Registrar AttendedArchives+, Manchester Central LibraryMCR_RM/58/129
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you say have Mary Jane census after her marriage to James Cain.
I'm not finding one for certain
It would hopefully have where she was born.
None of the baptisms found have an abode which is not helping.
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1901/11/21 record Manchester
SS
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1901/11/21 record Manchester
SS
Is husband now JOHN.
I'm really struggling with this one 🙄
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you say have Mary Jane census after her marriage to James Cain.
I'm not finding one for certain
It would hopefully have where she was born.
None of the baptisms found have an abode which is not helping.
1901/11/21 record Manchester
Might help others looking James transcribed as Enos on Anc*y
1901
Piece 3740
Folio 131
Page number 15
Jersey Street
James Cain 33 Head
Mary Jane Cain 30 Wife
Mary Elizt Cain 4 Daughter
Margaret Cain 1 Daughter
Josephin Cain 1 Daughter
Catherine Cain 5 mths Daughter
CAIN, JOSEPHINE SMITH
GRO Reference: 1899 S Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 220
CAIN, MARGARET SMITH
GRO Reference: 1899 S Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 220
Address 84 Jersey Street in 1911 but Mary JANE Cain is listed as Mary ANN,
two more children James & Gertrude
Mary Jane Cain age 52 in 1921 same street different number (as per Mary on 1895 marriage cert. posted by ManchesterJohnson)
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Looked at Jersey Street numbers 72, 84, 131 on 1891 census - not much help ???
No 72 Elizabeth CAIN, wid children JAMES, Catherine & Joseph (same address 1899 marriage cert.) same address in 1881
James Born 26 Oct 1867 Bpt. 3 Nov 1867 St. Patrick's Father Mattheu Mother Elizabeth McGuire
No 84 William DUCIE & his sister Margaret
No 131 Richard WHITE & his family (he's at that address in 1881)
This is the only SMITH family I can see living in Jersey Street in 1891 :-\
No 66 William Mars Head son in law James SMITH 37 wife Hannah (nee Mars) 37, dau Ellen 8 (mmn MARS), nephew William Smith 21
Are these all the children of James & Mary Jane?
Maria Elizabetha Cain 24 Jul 1896 Baptism 2 Aug 1896 Manchester
Jacobi, Maria Joannae
Joseph Cain 30 Dec 1897 Baptism 9 Jan 1898 Manchester
Jacobi, Mariae Johannae
Margarita Cain 13 Jul 1899 Baptism 23 Jul 1899 Manchester
Jacobi, Mariae
Josephina Cain 13 Jul 1899 Baptism 23 Jul 1899 Manchester
Jacobi, Mariae
Catherina Cain 29 Oct 1900 Baptism 10 Nov 1900 Manchester
Jacobi, Mariae Jane
Jacobus Cain 18 Nov 1903 Baptism 6 Dec 1903 Manchester
Jacobi, Mariae Jeannae
Gertruda Cain 30 Jun 1906 Baptism 10 Jul 1906 Manchester
Jacobi, Mariae Joannae
Could naming patterns of James & Mary's children help narrow the search :-\
We know James' parents Matthew, Elizabeth and siblings Catherine & Joseph (from census)
and from their m/c
father's Matthew Cain & John Smith
witnesses were Margaret Smith & Joseph Cain
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Ladyhawk, thank you. Yes, those are the right children. The only one I was not aware of was Joseph Cain (1897). Jacobus we knew as James. Other than Maria Elizabeth who died as a child, I knew all of them personally.
The Cain side I have pretty well put together, but struggling with the Smiths.
With Mary Jane, one curious aspect is that she lists here address on her marriage certificate (1895) as 131 Jersey Street. As you point out, in 1891, the White family resided there. As they did until around 1897.
I have the 1871 census which shows John and Mary Smith living at 2 Smiths Court, in the same area as Jersey Street. This has Mary Jane as 1 year old, being born in Manchester. John and Mary are listed as being born in Ireland in 1841 and 1843 respectively.
I will send for the marriage cert of John Smith and Mary Burns in 1864 and see if that matches.
Thanks everyone.
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Just posting this as a ref:, it may or maynot be the correct 1871 census re opening post
Smiths Court, Manchester, Lancashire, England
John Smith - - Male 30 1841 Hawker Ireland
Mary Smith - - Female 28 1843 - Ireland
Mary Jane Smith Daughter - Female 1 1870 - Manchester, Lancashire, England
Michael Smith Brother - Male 13 1858 Hawker Manchester, Lancashire, England
A possible son John William 1872 mmn Burns. as per previous posts
A marriage (image on Ancestry for those with a sub) Ancoats, St James the Less 28/29.2.1892
John Smith 18 occ Hawker, bach, 24 Bk Mill Street--father John Smith occ Hawker
Bridget Glynn 18, factory operative, 26 Bk Mill Street--father Patrick Glynn, occ Dyer
Probably NOT our man
SS
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Just posting this as a ref:, it may or maynot be the correct 1871 census re opening post
Smiths Court, Manchester, Lancashire, England
John Smith - - Male 30 1841 Hawker Ireland
Mary Smith - - Female 28 1843 - Ireland
Mary Jane Smith Daughter - Female 1 1870 - Manchester, Lancashire, England
Michael Smith Brother - Male 13 1858 Hawker Manchester, Lancashire, England
A possible son John William 1872 mmn Burns. as per previous posts
SS - have you found the above family on the 1881 census?
Mary Jane born c1870 there is this death entry :-\
Mary Jane Smith Age 11
Death Mar 1881 Manchester Volume 8d Page 197
Mary Jane Smith age 26 occupation was cotton piecer on her 1895 marriage cert. perhaps we can find her on the 1891 census with same occupation :-\
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It was worth a try.
SS, a year older today ;D
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The inquest is in Manchester Times 12 March 1881.
John Smith was of Worsley Street Deansgate.
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1881--4, Worsley Street, Manchester, Lancashire, England
John Smith Head Married Male 48 1833 Smallware weaver Manchester, Lancashire, England
Anne Smith Wife Married Female 47 1834 Smallware winder Manchester, Lancashire, England
Thomas Smith Son Single Male 19 1862 Copper smith Manchester, Lancashire, England
Alice Smith Daughter Single Female 15 1866 Domestic serv Manchester, Lancashire, England
SS
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Don't know if connected but have been looking at this family. Ann is not the mother of the McAndry sons as 1871 that is Catherine nee McCormack who dies March Q 1879.
1881 - Bradford, Manchester
James Mc Andry 48 Head
Ann Mc Andry 40 Wife
Arthur Mc Andry 20 Son
William Mc Andry 18 Son
Janes Welsh 70, Mother in Law
Mary J. Smith 11 Niece, Manchester
If access - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/7572/records/10852278
Added - Think the connection maybe to wife Ann?
Cas
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1891 same family in Bradford, Lancs
all dittoed b Ireland
James McAndrew 56 Head
Ann McAndrew 50 Wife
Jane Welsh 70 Mother-in-law
Mary Jane Smith 21 Niece (occ is similar to marriage info)
John W Smith 18 Brother (brother to Mary Jane?)
Maggie Smith 16 Sister
If access - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/6598/records/21062913
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/LAN/Bradford/ looks quite near to Ancoats
Cas
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There is this possible death for wife Ann that would fit with last census
Honora McAndry
Age 59
Estimated Birth Year abt 1838
Registration Quarter Oct-Nov-Dec
Death Registration Place Prestwich, Lancashire
Death Date Dec 1897
Volume 8d Page 218
So likely this marriage connects
Honora Byrne - James McAndry same page.
Registration Year 1879
Registration Quarter Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration District Manchester
Inferred County Lancashire
Volume 8d Page 379
Maybe a long shot but Byrne and Burns are similar. Although could have been married previously. Also Ann can be a pet form of Honora
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That 1891 is interesting.
1861 London Road Manchester
James McAndey29Head b Ireland
Catherine McAndey33Wife "
Nathan McAndey9Son "
James McAndey6Son "
Arthur McAndey3/12Son mmn McCormick. B Manchester
Ellen McCormack40Sister-in-law
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Civil marriage
MCANDRYJames
BYRNEHonora1879
Manchester Register Office or Registrar AttendedArchives+,
Manchester Central LibraryMCR_RM/97/104
Lancashire FreeBmd
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Just posting this as a ref:, it may or maynot be the correct 1871 census re opening post
Smiths Court, Manchester, Lancashire, England
Manchester rate books (dated in September 1871 and September 1872)
1871 has John Smith at 2 Smith Court
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-6XWV-J1
1872 has Mary Smith at 2 Smith Court
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6GG9-S21
Had John died?
Mind you, all the other names are different.
Add in (October) 1873, no Smiths
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6FQ9-BS
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Thank you again everyone. The Burns / Byrne connection is interesting at Byrne is a good old Irish name.
Mary Janes’s father is listed as deceased on her marriage certificate so her living with family would be a reality. The fact you’ve found her with the other men Burns family definitely ups the ante.
Bradford is not far from Ancoats, and coincidentally is where my mother’s family came from. Mary Jane is on my paternal side. I’ll plug these links into my tree and see how it looks.
Thank you again everyone I’m learning a lot from how you guys search.
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I like all the research recently done and have no doubts that is the 3 children in 1891 census. my slight issue is that John W(1873 but baptised 1872) and Maggie (1875, or is her age incorrect and should be 26=1865 a per baptism.There is a very strong death in late 1871 Manchester for John aged 30 who was 30 in 1871 census.
SS
added, below birth a possible, date of birth different from baptism.
who was at that address in 1865 rate books and is it possibly the same address as 1864 marriage?
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Allum Street is close to Newton Street. Ancoats A fire proof mill was there in 1863
In 1866 a waste warehouse burnt down . Close to Allum Street and Union Street.
It's in lots of newspapers.
Not much help really but just a clue to the location.
I don't know where to find Rate Books on Ancestry ???
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Modified...
The 1881 census with the McAndrey's shows Mary Jane as the niece, at the right age and born in Manchester. As her father is listed as deceased on her marriage cert, that ties together.
Jane Weish is listed as the mother-in-law, so if I'm getting this correctly, that means Ann McAndrey (McAndrew), the wife of James McAndry, must have been a sister to Mary Jane's mother, Mary. That also maps with the logic of her being Mary Jane. I'm assuming Welsh is her married name.
I'll keep digging.
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I think this is the man who was at the baptisms J Gornall.
Piece 4033 Folio33 Page number22
1871 Ancoats Manchester
Rev John Gornall b 1824 Preston
Occupation Catholic priest of St Albans.
Are the Smiths in the same area. ???
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wilcoxon, the SMiths were definitely in the Ancoats area, as were my grandparents and I spent time there as a kid. Mary Jane also quotes an Ancoats address on her wedding cert, but the evidence here says she was living in Bradford. Now Bradford in Manchester is only a few miles away from Ancoats, but that was still a trek in those days. Still, it is tying together.
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Bradford to Ancoats roughly 1.7 miles.
SS
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ss, yeah - I suppose that's only half an hours walk. And I like the coincidence, as my mothers family is from the Bradford area.
So I think that is her!
Her parents John and Mary came to England sometime after 1840's with his sister Ann (Byrne/Burns) and their mother Jane Welsh ne Burns/Byrne.
It definitely helps explain my Irish DNA results!
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Think this maybe the 1871 for Ann Byrne. Age is out but image could be 31. So likely unmarried on marriage to McAndry? I would not assume relationship until more evidence. Connection could be a Burn/Byrne cousin...Jane could have remarried a Welsh etc.
Godparents are normally sponsored to step in if anything happens to parents if I am correct. I think there are clues in the children's bapts as godparent relationships can be family or close friends
1871 - All Souls, Manchester (New Cross)
Anne Byrne 21 Head, unmarried, Ireland
Jane Welsh 56 Mother, Widow, Ireland
Anne Mee 15 Boarder
Mary Hunt 70 Boarder
Anne Hunt 28 Boarder
If access - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/7619/records/17718563
I would try use DNA. Have you tried a search for surnames and area in your DNA tab to see if on right track with any hits? Can be tricky finding connection, but the search in DNA tab all have some link to you.
Added - would remember there is over 4 yrs between 1891 census and marriage address in 1895, would check the surname of people/wife at marriage address for possible family connection maybe.
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Just posting this as a ref:, it may or maynot be the correct 1871 census re opening post
Smiths Court, Manchester, Lancashire, England
Manchester rate books (dated in September 1871 and September 1872)
1871 has John Smith at 2 Smith Court
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-6XWV-J1
1872 has Mary Smith at 2 Smith Court
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6GG9-S21
Had John died?
Mind you, all the other names are different.
Add in (October) 1873, no Smiths
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6FQ9-BS
Possibly
John Smith b c 1841.
Death Lancs Free Bmd .
SMITH John 30 1872 AncoatsArchives+, Manchester Central LibraryANC/115/94
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Just posting this as a ref:, it may or maynot be the correct 1871 census re opening post
Smiths Court, Manchester, Lancashire, England
John Smith - - Male 30 1841 Hawker Ireland
Mary Smith - - Female 28 1843 - Ireland
Mary Jane Smith Daughter - Female 1 1870 - Manchester, Lancashire, England
Michael Smith Brother - Male 13 1858 Hawker Manchester, Lancashire, England
Probably NOT our man
SS
England and Wales Select Cemetery registers Ancestry
NameJohn Smith
Age28 Record Type Burial Birth Date abt 1844
Death Dateabt 1872 Burial Date31 Jan 1872
Philips Park CemeteryCemetery SectionEGrave Number455
Occupation Hawker
It be nice if there was more information.
So agreed , probably not the one we are looking for .
They were on the same census district as the Rev Gornall in 1871. Another dead end. ::)
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Wilcoxon thank you for all your effort though. I’ve been through quite a few dead ends with John Smith! I couldn’t afford any more GRO buys so came here 😃
I started out with that 1871 family being the basis, but they don’t track with the other findings.
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1891 same family in Bradford, Lancs
all dittoed b Ireland
James McAndrew 56 Head
Ann McAndrew 50 Wife
Jane Welsh 70 Mother-in-law
Mary Jane Smith 21 Niece (occ is similar to marriage info)
John W Smith 18 Brother (brother to Mary Jane?)
Maggie Smith 16 Sister
If access - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/6598/records/21062913
Don't know if connected but have been looking at this family. Ann is not the mother of the McAndry sons as 1871 that is Catherine nee McCormack who dies March Q 1879.
1881 - Bradford, Manchester
James Mc Andry 48 Head
Ann Mc Andry 40 Wife
Arthur Mc Andry 20 Son
William Mc Andry 18 Son
Janes Welsh 70, Mother in Law
Mary J. Smith 11 Niece, Manchester
If access - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/7572/records/10852278
Added - Think the connection maybe to wife Ann?
Think this maybe the 1871 for Ann Byrne. Age is out but image could be 31.
So likely unmarried on marriage to McAndry? I would not assume relationship until more evidence. Connection could be a Burn/Byrne cousin...Jane could have remarried a Welsh etc.
1871 - All Souls, Manchester (New Cross)
Anne Byrne 21 Head, unmarried, Ireland
Jane Welsh 56 Mother, Widow, Ireland
Anne Mee 15 Boarder
Mary Hunt 70 Boarder
Anne Hunt 28 Boarder
If access - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/7619/records/17718563
Added - would remember there is over 4 yrs between 1891 census and marriage address in 1895, would check the surname of people/wife at marriage address for possible family connection maybe.
There is this possible death for wife Ann that would fit with last census
Honora McAndry Age 59
Dec 1897 Prestwich, Lancashire Volume 8d Page 218
So likely this marriage connects
Honora Byrne - James McAndry same page.
Dec 1879 Manchester Volume 8d Page 379
Maybe a long shot but Byrne and Burns are similar. Although could have been married previously. Also Ann can be a pet form of Honora
Been following - Cas well found - the 1871 census for Ann does appear to be age 21 looking at some of the other entries on that page but then again mother in law Jane Welsh is 70 in 1881 & 1891 :-\
Cas your hunch was correct re: 1897 death entry
Honora McANDRY age 59 years
Died 3 Dec 1897, 11 Willow Street Bradford
Bronchitis
Wife of James, general labourer,
Informant James widower, present at death, same address he made his mark
I took a gamble on this 1894 death entry
Jane WELSH, 71 years, widow of James WELSH, general labourer
Died 11 June 1894, 11 Willow Street Bradford
Old age certified by George Thomas M.R.C.S
Informant Ann McANDREW daughter present at death, same address she made her mark
You would need to obtain the Dec 1879 BRYNE/McANDRY m/c to confirm her father’s name
I’m not seeing a Welsh/Bryne/Burn marriage on FreeBMD, Lancashire BMD or Ireland Geanology https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/search/
Not having much luck finding a baptism for Honora/Ann Byrne/Burn either ???
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On 2 June 1898 there was a serious train crash at Leyland, an excursion was returning from Blackpool.
One of the injured was Anne Burn 11 Willow Street Bradford.
No other names that I recognise.
Sheffield Daily Telegraph 4 June 1898