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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: ManchesterJohnson on Thursday 13 November 25 18:03 GMT (UK)
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Ok, so of course I've found Smith's in my line and I'm stuck.
I have my great grandmother's marriage certificate, dated June 6th 1895, marrying James Cain. This certificate has her aged 26 and living at 131 Jersey Street, in Ancoats, Manchester.
Her father is listed at John Smith (of course it would be!), who is deceased but was a labourer.
The only matching census record I can find is from 1871, shwoing a 1 year old Mary Jane Smith living with John and Mary Smith, in Ancoats. I don't know if this is the right Mary Jane, but it's the only one that matches. I can't find any matching records for her, even though I've paid for a few birth certificates.
I've attached the marriage cert so you can see other details. The witness for Mary Jane is listed as Margaret Smith, but I don't know if that's a sister, friend or mother.
Does anyone have any ideas of how I can track her down?
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Possible
Marriages Dec 1864
Burns Mary Manchester 8d 672
Smith John Manchester 8d 672
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Smith dob 13.6.1872--appears in Ancoats 1921 and 1939 war reg with same dob
John William
1872
—
1872
England Roman Catholic Parish Baptisms
Ancoats, St Alban, Lancashire, England
Smith
Mary Jane dob 8.6.1869
1869
—
1869
England Roman Catholic Parish Baptisms
Ancoats, St Alban, Lancashire, England
Smith
Margarita dob 2.9.1865
1865
—
1865
England Roman Catholic Parish Baptisms
Ancoats, St Alban, Lancashire, England
All 3 above baptisms have mmn Burns.
SS
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And that's why I'm on the beginners forum!
Thank you. The Margarita is an interesting link with the marriage cert.
Where did you find the catholic baptism records? And why aren't these births on the GRO database?
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I cannot as yet answer all your questions. The actual baptism/confirmation images are available on Ancestry with transcripts on FindMyPast. My experience often with many early Catholic births show that the parents did not register the births with GRO.
There are many far more experienced rootschatters who I expect will add to your post and also give you further help in the search.
If this is your 1st post--welcome
SS
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"I don't know if this is the right Mary Jane, but it's the only one that matches"
matches...who?.....matches what?
You have obtained this marriage certificate as part of your research into the origins of .....who?
what do you know about your Mary Jane Smith?
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Apologies if I wasn't clear enough but researching these more difficult lines is still new to me.
Mary Jane Smith is my great grandmother. In 1895, she married my GGF James Cain. From that point forward, I have every census record without issue.
From the marriage certificate, I know that her father is John Smith. I have her death certificate in 1921, with James Cain being the widower.
My aunt, the only living relative of the generation previous to me, was born in 1935, so never met her and recalls very little said about her.
I therefore have nothing tangible before 1895. The records I do have all point to her being born 1869/70 but I cannot find a birth record that matches this info..
In the 1871 census, there is an entry for a family, John and Mary Smith, with a daughter, of the right age (1) Mary Jane Smith, living in the same area of Manchester as her husband-to-be's family. There is no other evidential link between that census entry and my GGM. Likewise, I cannot find any other census entries in 1881 or 1891 that show my GGM. The reason I thought that the 1871 census Mary Jane might be my Mary Jane is that it shows John and Mary Smith, the parents in the 1871 record, as being Irish. Despite me only finding one Irish ancestor so far, my DNA says I am >40% Irish!
So I came on here to ask for help in trying to trace the birth of Mary Jane Smith, so that I can identify and trace her parents.
Does that make it a bit clearer or am I still asking the wrong questions?
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It explains things really well, I and others will continue to seek
SS
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Baptism: 17 Sep 1865 St Alban, Ancoats, Lancashire
Margarita Smith - [Child] of Joannis Smith & Mariae (formerly Burns)
Born: 2 Sep 1865
Godparents: Thomas Smith; Anna Burns
Baptised By: J. Gornall
Register: Baptisms 1863 - 1870, Page 40, Entry 205
Source: Original Register at Lancashire Archives
Baptism: 13 Jun 1869 St Alban, Ancoats, Lancashire
Mary Jane Smith - [Child] of John Smith & Mary (formerly Burns)
Born: 8 Jun 1869
Godparents: James Smith; Catherine Smith
Baptised By: J. Gornall
Register: Baptisms 1863 - 1870, Page 132, Entry 656
Source: Original Register at Lancashire Archives
Found here for free. It's easy to use, and you might find more. 🙂
https://www.lan-opc.org.uk/
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Oops. I missed this one SS found. Also on Lancashire Parish Clerks
Baptism: 16 Jun 1872 St Alban, Ancoats, Lancashire
John William Smith - [Child] of John Smith & Mary (formerly Burns)
Born: 13 Jun 1872
Godparents: John Welsh; Ann Burns
Baptised By: J. Gornall
Register: Baptisms 1870 - 1891, Entry 986
Source: Original Register at Lancashire Archives
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This is the marriage SS found. A Civil Marriage, so unfortunately you have to pay for the certificate 🙁
https://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/index.php
SMITHJohn
BURNSMary 1864 Manchester Register Office or Registrar AttendedArchives+, Manchester Central LibraryMCR_RM/58/129
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you say have Mary Jane census after her marriage to James Cain.
I'm not finding one for certain
It would hopefully have where she was born.
None of the baptisms found have an abode which is not helping.
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1901/11/21 record Manchester
SS
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1901/11/21 record Manchester
SS
Is husband now JOHN.
I'm really struggling with this one 🙄
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you say have Mary Jane census after her marriage to James Cain.
I'm not finding one for certain
It would hopefully have where she was born.
None of the baptisms found have an abode which is not helping.
1901/11/21 record Manchester
Might help others looking James
1901 census
RG13/3740/131 p 15
Jersey Street
James Cain 33 Head
Mary Jane Cain 30 Wife
Mary Elizt Cain 4 Daughter
Margaret Cain 1 Daughter
Josephin Cain 1 Daughter
Catherine Cain 5 mths Daughter
CAIN, JOSEPHINE SMITH
GRO Reference: 1899 S Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 220
CAIN, MARGARET SMITH
GRO Reference: 1899 S Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 220
Address 84 Jersey Street in 1911 but Mary JANE Cain is listed as Mary ANN,
two more children James & Gertrude
Mary Jane Cain age 52 in 1921 same street different number (as per Mary on 1895 marriage cert. posted by ManchesterJohnson)
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Looked at Jersey Street numbers 72, 84, 131 on 1891 census - not much help ???
No 72 Elizabeth CAIN, wid children JAMES, Catherine & Joseph (same address 1899 marriage cert.) same address in 1881
James Born 26 Oct 1867 Bpt. 3 Nov 1867 St. Patrick's Father Mattheu Mother Elizabeth McGuire
No 84 William DUCIE & his sister Margaret
No 131 Richard WHITE & his family (he's at that address in 1881)
This is the only SMITH family I can see living in Jersey Street in 1891 :-\
No 66 William Mars Head son in law James SMITH 37 wife Hannah (nee Mars) 37, dau Ellen 8 (mmn MARS), nephew William Smith 21
Are these all the children of James & Mary Jane?
Maria Elizabetha Cain 24 Jul 1896 Baptism 2 Aug 1896 Manchester
Jacobi, Maria Joannae
Joseph Cain 30 Dec 1897 Baptism 9 Jan 1898 Manchester
Jacobi, Mariae Johannae
Margarita Cain 13 Jul 1899 Baptism 23 Jul 1899 Manchester
Jacobi, Mariae
Josephina Cain 13 Jul 1899 Baptism 23 Jul 1899 Manchester
Jacobi, Mariae
Catherina Cain 29 Oct 1900 Baptism 10 Nov 1900 Manchester
Jacobi, Mariae Jane
Jacobus Cain 18 Nov 1903 Baptism 6 Dec 1903 Manchester
Jacobi, Mariae Jeannae
Gertruda Cain 30 Jun 1906 Baptism 10 Jul 1906 Manchester
Jacobi, Mariae Joannae
Could naming patterns of James & Mary's children help narrow the search :-\
We know James' parents Matthew, Elizabeth and siblings Catherine & Joseph (from census)
and from their m/c
father's Matthew Cain & John Smith
witnesses were Margaret Smith & Joseph Cain
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Ladyhawk, thank you. Yes, those are the right children. The only one I was not aware of was Joseph Cain (1897). Jacobus we knew as James. Other than Maria Elizabeth who died as a child, I knew all of them personally.
The Cain side I have pretty well put together, but struggling with the Smiths.
With Mary Jane, one curious aspect is that she lists here address on her marriage certificate (1895) as 131 Jersey Street. As you point out, in 1891, the White family resided there. As they did until around 1897.
I have the 1871 census which shows John and Mary Smith living at 2 Smiths Court, in the same area as Jersey Street. This has Mary Jane as 1 year old, being born in Manchester. John and Mary are listed as being born in Ireland in 1841 and 1843 respectively.
I will send for the marriage cert of John Smith and Mary Burns in 1864 and see if that matches.
Thanks everyone.
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Just posting this as a ref:, it may or maynot be the correct 1871 census re opening post
Smiths Court, Manchester, Lancashire, England
John Smith - - 30 Hawker b Ireland
Mary Smith - - 28 - b Ireland
Mary Jane Smith Daughter - 1 - b Manchester, Lancashire
Michael Smith Brother - 13 Hawker b Manchester, Lancashire
A possible son John William 1872 mmn Burns. as per previous posts
A marriage (image on Ancestry for those with a sub) Ancoats, St James the Less 28/29.2.1892
John Smith 18 occ Hawker, bach, 24 Bk Mill Street--father John Smith occ Hawker
Bridget Glynn 18, factory operative, 26 Bk Mill Street--father Patrick Glynn, occ Dyer
Probably NOT our man
SS
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Just posting this as a ref:, it may or maynot be the correct 1871 census re opening post
Smiths Court, Manchester, Lancashire, England
John Smith - - 30 Hawker b Ireland
Mary Smith - - 28 - b Ireland
Mary Jane Smith Daughter - 1 - b Manchester, Lancashire
Michael Smith Brother - 13 Hawker b Manchester, Lancashire
A possible son John William 1872 mmn Burns. as per previous posts
SS - have you found the above family on the 1881 census?
Mary Jane born c1870 there is this death entry :-\
Mary Jane Smith Age 11
Death Mar 1881 Manchester Volume 8d Page 197
Mary Jane Smith age 26 occupation was cotton piecer on her 1895 marriage cert. perhaps we can find her on the 1891 census with same occupation :-\
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It was worth a try.
SS, a year older today ;D
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The inquest is in Manchester Times 12 March 1881.
John Smith was of Worsley Street Deansgate.
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1881--4, Worsley Street, Manchester
John Smith Head married 48 Smallware weaver b Manchester
Anne Smith Wife Married 47 Smallware winder b Manchester
Thomas Smith Son 19 Copper smith b Manchester
Alice Smith Daughter 15 Domestic serv b Manchester
SS
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Don't know if connected but have been looking at this family. Ann is not the mother of the McAndry sons as 1871 that is Catherine nee McCormack who dies March Q 1879.
1881 - Bradford, Manchester
James Mc Andry 48 Head
Ann Mc Andry 40 Wife
Arthur Mc Andry 20 Son
William Mc Andry 18 Son
Janes Welsh 70, Mother in Law
Mary J. Smith 11 Niece, Manchester
If access - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/7572/records/10852278
Added - Think the connection maybe to wife Ann?
Cas
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1891 same family in Bradford, Lancs
all dittoed b Ireland
James McAndrew 56 Head
Ann McAndrew 50 Wife
Jane Welsh 70 Mother-in-law
Mary Jane Smith 21 Niece (occ is similar to marriage info)
John W Smith 18 Brother (brother to Mary Jane?)
Maggie Smith 16 Sister
If access - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/6598/records/21062913
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/LAN/Bradford/ looks quite near to Ancoats
Cas
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There is this possible death for wife Ann that would fit with last census
Honora McAndry
Age 59
Estimated Birth Year abt 1838
Registration Quarter Oct-Nov-Dec
Death Registration Place Prestwich, Lancashire
Death Date Dec 1897
Volume 8d Page 218
So likely this marriage connects
Honora Byrne - James McAndry same page.
Registration Year 1879
Registration Quarter Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration District Manchester
Inferred County Lancashire
Volume 8d Page 379
Maybe a long shot but Byrne and Burns are similar. Although could have been married previously. Also Ann can be a pet form of Honora
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That 1891 is interesting.
1861 London Road Manchester
James McAndey29Head b Ireland
Catherine McAndey33Wife "
Nathan McAndey9Son "
James McAndey6Son "
Arthur McAndey3/12Son mmn McCormick. B Manchester
Ellen McCormack40Sister-in-law
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Civil marriage
MCANDRYJames
BYRNEHonora1879
Manchester Register Office or Registrar AttendedArchives+,
Manchester Central LibraryMCR_RM/97/104
Lancashire FreeBmd
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Just posting this as a ref:, it may or maynot be the correct 1871 census re opening post
Smiths Court, Manchester, Lancashire, England
Manchester rate books (dated in September 1871 and September 1872)
1871 has John Smith at 2 Smith Court
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-6XWV-J1
1872 has Mary Smith at 2 Smith Court
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6GG9-S21
Had John died?
Mind you, all the other names are different.
Add in (October) 1873, no Smiths
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6FQ9-BS
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Thank you again everyone. The Burns / Byrne connection is interesting at Byrne is a good old Irish name.
Mary Janes’s father is listed as deceased on her marriage certificate so her living with family would be a reality. The fact you’ve found her with the other men Burns family definitely ups the ante.
Bradford is not far from Ancoats, and coincidentally is where my mother’s family came from. Mary Jane is on my paternal side. I’ll plug these links into my tree and see how it looks.
Thank you again everyone I’m learning a lot from how you guys search.
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I like all the research recently done and have no doubts that is the 3 children in 1891 census. my slight issue is that John W(1873 but baptised 1872) and Maggie (1875, or is her age incorrect and should be 26=1865 a per baptism.There is a very strong death in late 1871 Manchester for John aged 30 who was 30 in 1871 census.
SS
added, below birth a possible, date of birth different from baptism.
who was at that address in 1865 rate books and is it possibly the same address as 1864 marriage?
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Allum Street is close to Newton Street. Ancoats A fire proof mill was there in 1863
In 1866 a waste warehouse burnt down . Close to Allum Street and Union Street.
It's in lots of newspapers.
Not much help really but just a clue to the location.
I don't know where to find Rate Books on Ancestry ???
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Modified...
The 1881 census with the McAndrey's shows Mary Jane as the niece, at the right age and born in Manchester. As her father is listed as deceased on her marriage cert, that ties together.
Jane Weish is listed as the mother-in-law, so if I'm getting this correctly, that means Ann McAndrey (McAndrew), the wife of James McAndry, must have been a sister to Mary Jane's mother, Mary. That also maps with the logic of her being Mary Jane. I'm assuming Welsh is her married name.
I'll keep digging.
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I think this is the man who was at the baptisms J Gornall.
Piece 4033 Folio33 Page number22
1871 Ancoats Manchester
Rev John Gornall b 1824 Preston
Occupation Catholic priest of St Albans.
Are the Smiths in the same area. ???
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wilcoxon, the SMiths were definitely in the Ancoats area, as were my grandparents and I spent time there as a kid. Mary Jane also quotes an Ancoats address on her wedding cert, but the evidence here says she was living in Bradford. Now Bradford in Manchester is only a few miles away from Ancoats, but that was still a trek in those days. Still, it is tying together.
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Bradford to Ancoats roughly 1.7 miles.
SS
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ss, yeah - I suppose that's only half an hours walk. And I like the coincidence, as my mothers family is from the Bradford area.
So I think that is her!
Her parents John and Mary came to England sometime after 1840's with his sister Ann (Byrne/Burns) and their mother Jane Welsh ne Burns/Byrne.
It definitely helps explain my Irish DNA results!
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Think this maybe the 1871 for Ann Byrne. Age is out but image could be 31. So likely unmarried on marriage to McAndry? I would not assume relationship until more evidence. Connection could be a Burn/Byrne cousin...Jane could have remarried a Welsh etc.
Godparents are normally sponsored to step in if anything happens to parents if I am correct. I think there are clues in the children's bapts as godparent relationships can be family or close friends
1871 - All Souls, Manchester (New Cross)
Anne Byrne 21 Head, unmarried, Ireland
Jane Welsh 56 Mother, Widow, Ireland
Anne Mee 15 Boarder
Mary Hunt 70 Boarder
Anne Hunt 28 Boarder
If access - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/7619/records/17718563
I would try use DNA. Have you tried a search for surnames and area in your DNA tab to see if on right track with any hits? Can be tricky finding connection, but the search in DNA tab all have some link to you.
Added - would remember there is over 4 yrs between 1891 census and marriage address in 1895, would check the surname of people/wife at marriage address for possible family connection maybe.
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Just posting this as a ref:, it may or maynot be the correct 1871 census re opening post
Smiths Court, Manchester, Lancashire, England
Manchester rate books (dated in September 1871 and September 1872)
1871 has John Smith at 2 Smith Court
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-6XWV-J1
1872 has Mary Smith at 2 Smith Court
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6GG9-S21
Had John died?
Mind you, all the other names are different.
Add in (October) 1873, no Smiths
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6FQ9-BS
Possibly
John Smith b c 1841.
Death Lancs Free Bmd .
SMITH John 30 1872 AncoatsArchives+, Manchester Central LibraryANC/115/94
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Just posting this as a ref:, it may or maynot be the correct 1871 census re opening post
Smiths Court, Manchester, Lancashire, England
John Smith - - Male 30 1841 Hawker Ireland
Mary Smith - - Female 28 1843 - Ireland
Mary Jane Smith Daughter - Female 1 1870 - Manchester, Lancashire, England
Michael Smith Brother - Male 13 1858 Hawker Manchester, Lancashire, England
Probably NOT our man
SS
England and Wales Select Cemetery registers Ancestry
NameJohn Smith
Age28 Record Type Burial Birth Date abt 1844
Death Dateabt 1872 Burial Date31 Jan 1872
Philips Park CemeteryCemetery SectionEGrave Number455
Occupation Hawker
It be nice if there was more information.
So agreed , probably not the one we are looking for .
They were on the same census district as the Rev Gornall in 1871. Another dead end. ::)
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Wilcoxon thank you for all your effort though. I’ve been through quite a few dead ends with John Smith! I couldn’t afford any more GRO buys so came here 😃
I started out with that 1871 family being the basis, but they don’t track with the other findings.
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1891 same family in Bradford, Lancs
all dittoed b Ireland
James McAndrew 56 Head
Ann McAndrew 50 Wife
Jane Welsh 70 Mother-in-law
Mary Jane Smith 21 Niece (occ is similar to marriage info)
John W Smith 18 Brother (brother to Mary Jane?)
Maggie Smith 16 Sister
If access - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/6598/records/21062913
Don't know if connected but have been looking at this family. Ann is not the mother of the McAndry sons as 1871 that is Catherine nee McCormack who dies March Q 1879.
1881 - Bradford, Manchester
James Mc Andry 48 Head
Ann Mc Andry 40 Wife
Arthur Mc Andry 20 Son
William Mc Andry 18 Son
Janes Welsh 70, Mother in Law
Mary J. Smith 11 Niece, Manchester
If access - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/7572/records/10852278
Added - Think the connection maybe to wife Ann?
Think this maybe the 1871 for Ann Byrne. Age is out but image could be 31.
So likely unmarried on marriage to McAndry? I would not assume relationship until more evidence. Connection could be a Burn/Byrne cousin...Jane could have remarried a Welsh etc.
1871 - All Souls, Manchester (New Cross)
Anne Byrne 21 Head, unmarried, Ireland
Jane Welsh 56 Mother, Widow, Ireland
Anne Mee 15 Boarder
Mary Hunt 70 Boarder
Anne Hunt 28 Boarder
If access - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/7619/records/17718563
Added - would remember there is over 4 yrs between 1891 census and marriage address in 1895, would check the surname of people/wife at marriage address for possible family connection maybe.
There is this possible death for wife Ann that would fit with last census
Honora McAndry Age 59
Dec 1897 Prestwich, Lancashire Volume 8d Page 218
So likely this marriage connects
Honora Byrne - James McAndry same page.
Dec 1879 Manchester Volume 8d Page 379
Maybe a long shot but Byrne and Burns are similar. Although could have been married previously. Also Ann can be a pet form of Honora
Been following - Cas well found - the 1871 census for Ann does appear to be age 21 looking at some of the other entries on that page but then again mother in law Jane Welsh is 70 in 1881 & 1891 :-\
Cas your hunch was correct re: 1897 death entry
Honora McANDRY age 59 years
Died 3 Dec 1897, 11 Willow Street Bradford
Bronchitis
Wife of James, general labourer,
Informant James widower, present at death, same address he made his mark
I took a gamble on this 1894 death entry
Jane WELSH, 71 years, widow of James WELSH, general labourer
Died 11 June 1894, 11 Willow Street Bradford
Old age certified by George Thomas M.R.C.S
Informant Ann McANDREW daughter present at death, same address she made her mark
You would need to obtain the Dec 1879 BRYNE/McANDRY m/c to confirm her father’s name
I’m not seeing a Welsh/Bryne/Burn marriage on FreeBMD, Lancashire BMD or Ireland Geanology https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/search/
Not having much luck finding a baptism for Honora/Ann Byrne/Burn either ???
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On 2 June 1898 there was a serious train crash at Leyland, an excursion was returning from Blackpool.
One of the injured was Anne Burn 11 Willow Street Bradford.
No other names that I recognise.
Sheffield Daily Telegraph 4 June 1898
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After adding the Burns name, Ancestry (I claim no credit) through up a coincidental suggestion
1851 census in Lancaster
Andrew Burns 29 b Roscommon, Ireland
Jane Burns 29 b Roscommon, Ireland
Mary Burns 8 b Wigton, Cumberland
Margaret Burns 6 b Preston, Lancashire
Now this doesn't tie up with the 1871 census as although Mary Smith nee Burns shows at the right age (1843 birth), it shows her being born in Ireland.
Just an interesting one for the mix.
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I have the 1871 census which shows John and Mary Smith living at 2 Smiths Court,
I will send for the marriage cert of John Smith and Mary Burns in 1864 and see if that matches.
Thanks everyone.
Hopefully when the certificate arrives it will help. 🙂
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I have the 1871 census which shows John and Mary Smith living at 2 Smiths Court,
I will send for the marriage cert of John Smith and Mary Burns in 1864 and see if that matches.
Thanks everyone.
Being despatched on the 20th, so should have it early next week. I'll post it here.
Hopefully when the certificate arrives it will help. 🙂
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I will send for the marriage cert of John Smith and Mary Burns in 1864 and see if that matches
Being despatched on the 20th, so should have it early next week. I'll post it here.
Fingers crossed :)
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1891 same family in Bradford, Lancs
James McAndrew 56 Head
Ann McAndrew 50 Wife
Jane Welsh 70 Mother-in-law
Mary Jane Smith 21 Niece (occ is similar to marriage info)
John W Smith 18 Brother (brother to Mary Jane?)
Maggie Smith 16 Sister
Address was 20 Birch Street
Possible marriage for Margaret (Maggie), who may also be the marriage witness for Mary Jane in 1895
Unfortunately it's transcription only, but we have transcripts on two sites, including Lancashire OPC
4 October 1900 St Brigid, Bradford cum Beswick
Joannem Hall Pendlebury
+
Margaretam Smith, of 37 Chatham Street
father Joannis Smith (Ancoats, Manchester).
witnessed by Samueli Frederico Fecht, Francisca Teresia Fecht, of 3 Horace Street, Ardwick
The Pendleburys don't appear to have had any children.
In 1901 they are at 14 Birch Street, Bradford
Previous schedule is a Nathaniel McAndrew at number 12
Margaret is 25, Cotton operative, born Lancashire Bradford
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9GZ-55P
1911 at 36 Rhodes Street, Bradford
Margaret is 35, born Lanc Bradford Manc
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW1V-KGS
Still there in 1921, transcribed Pondlebury
In 1939 Margaret is again at 36 Rhodes Street, now widowed, date of birth 14 April 1875.
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Not much help really but ..... could be.
John Hall Pendlebury, retiree , buried 12 March 1938 aged 64.
Margaret Pendlebury buried 30 June 1969 aged 93.
Buried at Phillips Park Cemetery Manchester
In the same plot G 427
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She lived to a great age!
Using Lancs OPC, there are some baptisms at Bradford St Brigid featuring Margaret as godparent, including
2 June 1902, Helena Cryer filia Jacobi Cryer & Mariae (formerly Doran), godparent Margareta Pendlebury
18 June 1905, Arthur Holland, filius Benjamini Holland & Catherinae (formerly Burns), godparents: Jacobus Cain; Margareta Pendlebury
11 June 1914, Florentia Holland, filia Benjamin Holland & Catharinae (formerly Burns), godparent Margarita Pendlebury
1 May 1916 - godparent for all three, Margarita Pendlebury
Julianna Byrne, filia Jacobi Byrne & Juliannae (formerly Manning)
Jacobus Byrne - filius Jacobi Byrne & Juliannae (formerly Manning)
Anna Byrne - filia Jacobi Byrne & Juliannae (formerly Manning)
Gives birth dates. Address 45 Chatham street.
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Some great sleuthing John! Ties the family together with James Cain being a godparent alongside Margaret
Well found!
Wonder if the first Margarite died? If Margaret was b 1875 there is a possibility that John Smith may not be her father if he was the possible 1871/1872 death... if I recall, been a few days since this thread.
Cas
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Not taking your thunder John but with yours and a few others help on thread the OP has it cracked, could not resist looking up 1921
James Burns b c 1886 Bradford, Manchester with wife & children at same address. (Looks like Byrne/Burns is interchangeable)
If access 1921 - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/63150/records/27063877
His father is James Burns, wonder if this is brother to Mary Burns, (mother of Mary Jane) Catherine Holland nee Burns is a Witness they must all be cousins/related?
Marriage - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/2962/records/1050387597
1939 register, couple at same address
Cas
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Hi Cas, thanks, your Bradford lead has been so helpful here.
I agree that they must be cousins.
I think the OP had it right in 1871 with the Smiths in Smiths Court! Did John then die and perhaps Mary moved to where her relatives were living?
Even though there should be one in 1875, I can't see an obvious birth reg for Margaret, or a baptism, a pity as either could be helpful. Maybe it's 50/50 as to whether John was still alive and really her father.
John
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In 1939 Margaret is again at 36 Rhodes Street, now widowed, date of birth 14 April 1875.
Maybe?
A baptism from Lancs OPC
14 April 1875, St Anne, Ancoats
Margarita Burns, filia Mariae Burns
Born 14 April 1875 (same day!)
Abode 5 Lee St.
Godparent Anna Lee
Baptised by P. Liptrott
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In 1939 Margaret is again at 36 Rhodes Street, now widowed, date of birth 14 April 1875.
Maybe?
A baptism from Lancs OPC
14 April 1875, St Anne, Ancoats
Margarita Burns, filia Mariae Burns
Born 14 April 1875 (same day!)
Abode 5 Lee St.
Godparent Anna Lee
Baptised by P. Liptrott
[/quote]
Your on a roll John. I would say that is (Margaret/Maggie) it does look like John Smith was not her father, with giving her maiden surname. His death must be between 1871 - 1874 possibly, unless the marriage folded?
Great stuff!
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Thanks Cas.
That date of birth is a bit of a coincidence, maybe too much, and you would expect there to have been a baptism for Margaret, so I think you are right.
Just one more set of godparents, last time!
It's the baptism of Hilda, another child of Benjamin Holland and wife Catherine, nee Burns
9 August 1923, at St Brigid, Bradford
godparents Jacobus Cain, Gertrudis Cain
So it could be James senior or James junior there.
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Not much help really but ..... could be.
John Hall Pendlebury, retiree , buried 12 March 1938 aged 64.
Margaret Pendlebury buried 30 June 1969 aged 93.
Buried at Phillips Park Cemetery Manchester
In the same plot G 427
Also in same plot
John William Smith Age71
Birth Dateabt 1873
Burial Date17 Feb 1944
Philips Park Cemetery
Cemetery Section G Grave Number 427 Occupation Laborer
However there are other people in the same section / Grave /number
None of these have names that we have turned up in the thread.
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Another good find John to cement the Cain/Smith/Burns family....
Great find Wilcoxon...possibly JWS did not marry?
Guess the OP is going to be chuffed. Hope the 1864 marriage cert is positive also
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https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/176087856/john-william-smith
Not too sure about Anne Broughton, but it does seem to be a private plot as it has a headstone.
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Yes, a great find, wilcoxon.
So now we know when John William died.
So if Margaret was illegitimate, then maybe the John Smith burial at Philips Park in 1872 is the right one. I would have thought that Mary would be buried there as well, probably in a common grave?
Speaking of Broughton!
Playing around with a godparent search again (despite myself!)
What is this all about? :-\
From Lancs OPC
Baptism at Bradford St Brigid, 7 Nov 1880
Joanna Burns, filia Jacobi Burns & Mariae (formerly Smith)
Born 24 Oct 1880
Abode 56 Gibbons Street
Godparents Arthur McCandrew?, Margareta Welsh
Notes: Ipsa matrimonium contraxit die 3 mensis Maii anno 1919 cum Leonardo Broughton in hac Ecclesia Stae Brigidae apud Bradford. Praesentibus testibus Jacobo Burns et Helenae Broughton. J. C. Holland
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By the way, a marriage in Dec 1879, Manchester 8d 384 :-\
Burns, James
Smith, Mary
(also Patrick Gerity and Mary Burns!)
Lancashire BMD
1879
James Burns + Mary Byrne
James Burns + Mary Smith
Manchester Register Office or Registrar Attended
Ref MCR_RM/97/113
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Couple more baptisms at Bradford St Brigid
8 July 1883
Catherina Byrne, filia Jacobi Byrne & Mariae (formerly Byrne)
Born 26 Jan 1883
Abode 10 Chatham Street
Godparents Thomas Welsh, Maria Joanna Smith
24 October 1886
Jacobus Burns, filius Jacobi Burns & Mariae (formerly Byrne)
Born 15 Oct 1886
Abode 75 Simpson Street
Godparents Jacobi McAndrew, Anna McDonnough
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Struggling with them in 1881, but this could be them in 1891 in Manchester
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:78GF-R3Z
From transcripts, hope they are right
James Burns 49, born Kildare Ireland
Mary Burns 49 Sligo Ireland
Annie Burns 10 Bradford nr Manchester
Catherine Burns 7 Bradford nr Manchester
James Burns 4 Bradford nr Manchester
Is Mary the mother of the three Smith children with the McAndrews in Bradford?
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So that's the family Cas found earlier in Reply #49 (sorry, Cas!) but maybe then James Burns senior wasn't Mary's brother, but her second husband? :-\
Possibly James Burns and Mary Smith nee Byrne/Burms not related, just a coincidence of names?
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Intriguing finds John, although could be confusing unless in a tree. I did mention there are clues in the bapts in reply # 35 earlier but never thought there would be so much!
1911 for Catherine Holland nee Burns has her father James, widow, age 68 b Wicklow and also married sister Annie Hesford in household in Bradford, Manchester
1911 - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/2352/records/26046436
Think this is Annie & Catherine in 1901. 41 Chatham St, Catherine recorded as Kate
1901 - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/7814/records/23695965
Henry Spelman 23 Head
Mary Spelman 19 Wife
Henry Spelman 4/12 Son
Ellen Clabby 37 Mother-in-law
Joseph Clabby 11 Brother-in-law
Annie Burns 20 Boarder
Kate Burns 17 Boarder
1939 for James jnr has him born 15 Oct 1887 (not out of the ordinary to be a year out)
Guess the 1864 & 1879 marriages would have same father for Mary Burns married Smith then Burns and she was mother to the Smith & Burns children which would make them half siblings not cousins!
It does make sense..needs paper or DNA verification
Wicklow & Kildare are bordering
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/irl/KID
KILDARE, a county of Ireland, province of Leinster, 37 m. long and 20 broad; bounded E by Dublin and Wicklow
Cas
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https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/176087856/john-william-smith
Not too sure about Anne Broughton, but it does seem to be a private plot as it has a headstone.
Looks like Anne Broughton is sister Ann/Annie
1939 register has her as Anne Broughton with the Holland family birth 24 Oct 1881
Is she the first born baptism Joanna b 24 Oct 1880 reply #57 given by John.. But called Ann?
Catherine Holland has a birth of 26 June 1883 not 26 Jan 1883. Possible error transcript in bapt register? written plainly in 1939
1939 - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/61596/records/26905783
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/141378736/benjamin-holland with wife Catherine
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Just to tie up the Holland family 1921 has them indexed Hollard. Catherine age 37- 0 mths so born June. No extended family in household
1921 - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/63150/records/27066317
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Annie Burns
Marriage Age 21
Event Type Marriage
Birth Year abt 1881
Marriage Date 24 May 1902
Marriage Place Bradford, St Aidan, Lancashire, England
Parish as it Appears Manchester, St Aidan
Father James Burns, lab
Spouse Ernest Hesford
Reference Number GB127.M190/2/2/1
(both Annie & Ernest Hesford and father James Burns in the Holland Household in 1911)
1902 marriage - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/2962/records/6621702
Annie Hesford
Birth Date 24 Oct 1880 (same as bapt for Joanna, found by John reply #57)
Residence Place Bradford Manchester
Relation to Soldier Widow
Title WWI Pension Record Cards and Ledgers
Pension record - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/61588/records/111736032
Ernest Hesford (widow Annie Broughton)
Death Date 22 Jul 1916
Death Place 2nd West Gen Hosp Mchstr
Rank Private
Regiment Loyal North Lancashire Regiment
Regimental Number 15689
Ernest, record dated 1919 - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/60506/records/756087
Annie Hesford
Registration Date 1919
Registration Quarter Apr-May-Jun
Registration District Prestwich
Inferred County Lancashire
Spouse Leonard Broughton
Volume Number 8d Page number 804
Notes from reply #57
Notes: Ipsa matrimonium contraxit die 3 mensis Maii anno 1919 cum Leonardo Broughton in hac Ecclesia Stae Brigidae apud Bradford. Praesentibus testibus Jacobo Burns et Helenae Broughton. J. C. Holland
Cas
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1921 47 Goole Street Bradford
Ada Donner 50 Years 8 MonthsWife Edith Donner13 Years 8 Months
DaughterAmelia Donner10 Years 7 MonthsDaughter
Leonard Broughton29 Years 7 MonthsBoarder b Bradford works for Post Office
Anne Broughton39 Years 1 Month boarder b Bradford
1939
Leonard Broughton Marital Status SingleB
Birth Date12 Dec 1894
Residence Date1939cResidence Place Stretford, Lancashire, EnglandOccupationPostman
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1921 47 Goole Street Bradford
Ada Donner 50 Years 8 MonthsWife Edith Donner13 Years 8 Months
DaughterAmelia Donner10 Years 7 MonthsDaughter
Leonard Broughton29 Years 7 MonthsBoarder b Bradford works for Post Office
Anne Broughton39 Years 1 Month boarder b Bradford
1939
Leonard Broughton Marital Status SingleB
Birth Date12 Dec 1894
Residence Date1939cResidence Place Stretford, Lancashire, EnglandOccupationPostman
Looked at that one but don't think it is her, it's odd. Birth mths don't match and it has her Dutch born
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Sorry closer inspection it says British born. Could be possible..
Added - looks likely as in 1911 he has a sister named Ellen bc 1896 likely witness as Helenae at 1919 marriage
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1921 Says Bradford on Ancestry
Could this be Leonard's death , same date but 1 year out.
Leonard Broughton death Age 81
Birth Date12 Dec 1893
Registration Date Oct 1975[Nov 1975][Dec 1975]
Registration QuarterOct-Nov-Dec Registration District Manchester
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Wow, this is all so much to taker in for an amateur like me!
Thank you everyone, it's going to take some time to look through. On scanning through, the Broughton link is interesting as Broughton's married into the family via Mary Smith's and James Cain's daughter Josephine (b 1899 - my Aunty Jo).
One frustrating thing... I got a notification the GRO had refunded my money for the John Mith Mary Burns marriage cert. Took me ages to understand till I realised I'd said the date was 1964 and not 1864... doh... Have reordered properly.
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Thank you everyone, it's going to take some time to look through. On scanning through, the Broughton link is interesting as Broughton's married into the family via Mary Smith's and James Cain's daughter Josephine (b 1899 - my Aunty Jo).
Marriage in 1925 Josephine Cain - John Broughton
Interestingly, but maybe coincidence..Leonard Broughton does have a brother John in 1911 census b 1899 living 12 Rhodes Street Bradford Manchester. Same street as Margaret Pendlebury nee Smith, as mentioned by John in previous replies.
1911 - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/2352/records/26023720
Maybe if the same John Broughton they possibly met through Leonard & Anne Broughton nee Burns.
If the records found are the correct ones, (seems they are, would need confirming with death of John Smith and both marriages of mother Mary) Anne Broughton would be half sister to Mary Jane Cain nee Smith
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Ernest Hesford is buried in Phillips Park Cemetery. A War grave by the looks of it. There are no others in the same grave / plot.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01u3o/
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On 2 June 1898 there was a serious train crash at Leyland, an excursion was returning from Blackpool.
One of the injured was Anne Burn 11 Willow Street Bradford.
No other names that I recognise.
Sheffield Daily Telegraph 4 June 1898
Ernest Hesford aged 19 of Chatham Street was on the same train, he injured his foot.
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On 2 June 1898 there was a serious train crash at Leyland, an excursion was returning from Blackpool.
One of the injured was Anne Burn 11 Willow Street Bradford.
No other names that I recognise.
Sheffield Daily Telegraph 4 June 1898
Ernest Hesford aged 19 of Chatham Street was on the same train, he injured his foot.
Could be the Ann Burn/s that married Ernest later in 1902. If so that is another connection, maybe she was looking after James McAndry/McAndrew after Honora/Ann nee Byrne died?
Added - not found James in 1901..possible death 1907..
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https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/176087856/john-william-smith
Not too sure about Anne Broughton, but it does seem to be a private plot as it has a headstone.
Looks like Anne Broughton is sister Ann/Annie
1939 register has her as Anne Broughton with the Holland family birth 24 Oct 1881
Is she the first born baptism Joanna b 24 Oct 1880 reply #57 given by John.. But called Ann?
Catherine Holland has a birth of 26 June 1883 not 26 Jan 1883. Possible error transcript in bapt register? written plainly in 1939
1939 - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/61596/records/26905783
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/141378736/benjamin-holland with wife Catherine
The Holland name is of definite interest to me. My dear old aunt Pauline Johnson, now 90, is convinced her mother, Catherine Cain treated a Florence Holland almost as a sister. She has no recollection of the actual relationship, but the fact that Hollands crop up in your reseach is interesting, as was the Broughton name.
You guys are really showing me how this is done, and it's going to take me a long time to sift through each of these posts!
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If all correct and confirmed via certs Catherine Cain & Florence Holland were cousins. Reply # 71 explains the possible family Broughton connection
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I like all the research recently done and have no doubts that is the 3 children in 1891 census. my slight issue is that John W(1873 but baptised 1872) and Maggie (1875, or is her age incorrect and should be 26=1865 a per baptism. There is a very strong death in late 1871 Manchester for John aged 30 who was 30 in 1871 census.
SS
added, below birth a possible, date of birth different from baptism.
who was at that address in 1865 rate books and is it possibly the same address as 1864 marriage?
Trying to go through your research line by line - only up to reply 29 so far! This birth certificate threw me to be honest. The main consensus is John Smith m Mary Burns and had Margarita Smith in September 1865. The photo shows a Margaret Smith being born to John Smith and Mary Byrne at a different date.
Does this throw a spanner into the Burns Byrne conversations? I hope just a coincidence as the McAndry/McAndrews link is too good.
I have ordered the marriage certificate of James and Honora. I have also ordered the death certificate of John SMith d 1871, as that seems the likeliest.
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I cannot speak for SS, hopefully he will drop in to give his thoughts.
My thoughts are the first born Margarite baptism found by SS, reply # 1, died before 1875 as another Margaret was born illegitimate after the death of John Smith. James Burns (second husband, married 1879) maybe her father, but only Mary baptised her as Burns, (found by John, reply #51) But she used the surname Smith.
Up until 1875 registration was not enforced, but could be frowned upon by some officials, if the child was not registered. Many saw baptism as enough, as god was more important, Catholics in particular.
The cert very generously purchased by SS, is either another John Smith/Mary Byrne, or the priest/official was on their case and the birthdate was altered not to incur a fine maybe. (6 wks to register from birth)
Just my thoughts, but stand to be corrected.
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It was worth a try.
SS, a year older today ;D
Apologies for going off thread....But just reread whole thread, and missed this...
Happy belated birthday for the 14th November SS :)
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Also meant to add, if not aware, some birth & death certs are available as an instant digital download for £3.00 from GRO
Unfortunately marriages are not included
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It was worth a try.
SS, a year older today ;D
Apologies for going off thread....But just reread whole thread, and missed this...
Happy belated birthday for the 14th November SS :)
I missed that too Cas - so I ditto your belated birthday wishes to SS :)
Wonder if the first Margarite died?
If Margaret was b 1875 there is a possibility that John Smith may not be her father if he was the possible 1871/1872 death... if I recall, been a few days since this thread.
Margaret Smith born ? Oct 1865 to John Smith, bricklayer's labourer & Mary nee Burns,
informant mother Mary she made her mark, 2 Allum Street Manchester (see image at reply 28 from SS)
Don’t know about this 1866 death entry as the address is different from b/c above
26th October 1866, 6 Lomas Street, Manchester
Margaret Smith age 1 year daughter of John Smith a Labourer
informant mother Mary Smith present at death, same address she made her mark
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I think it is a very good possible Ladyhawke. I think as Mary Jane was the only child in 1871 the death was before census. Also mother Mary would not rename a daughter Margaret if she was still living.
2nd Margaret was a key player/ witness/ godparent in this family. Confirmed by Jonwarrn posts.
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Reply 81
Don’t know about this 1866 death entry as the address is different from b/c above
26th October 1866, 6 Lomas Street, Manchester
Margaret Smith age 1 year daughter of John Smith a Labourer
informant mother Mary Smith present at death, same address she made her mark
Could this be the one.
England & Scotland, Select Cemetery Registers, 1800-2024
Margaret Smith Age1
Record Type Burial
Birth Date abt 1865 Burial Date 28 October 1866
Manchester General Cemetery Grave Number P G
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/LAN/Harpurhey/ManchesterGeneral
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Hi Guys, many thanks for birthday wishes. Had a great day. Hope the next 73 years go a bit slower.
With regard to this post I must confess I have lost tracks with it somewhat. Am I right in thinking op is awaiting a marriage cert that hopefully might pull together some of the research undertaken.
Speak soon I'm sure.
SS
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Hi Guys, many thanks for birthday wishes. Had a great day. Hope the next 73 years go a bit slower.
With regard to this post I must confess I have lost tracks with it somewhat. Am I right in thinking op is awaiting a marriage cert that hopefully might pull together some of the research undertaken.
Speak soon I'm sure.
SS
Hi SS...Yes, OP has ordered the 1864 marriage, 1871 death for John Smith, also the marriage of James McAndry/Honora Byrne.
Think the death may have been PDF format. Think he may want to see if father match on marriages with more leads on Byrne/Burn.
But I may be wrong about his intention re father of Mary & Honora/Ann
Cas
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SS, very happy belated birthday wishes from me too.
More great research and posts from Cas, wilcoxon, and Ladyhawk since I was last here.
Am I right in thinking op is awaiting a marriage cert that hopefully might pull together some of the research undertaken.
One thing we are missing is the Burns/Smith family (presuming they are one family!) in the 1881 census. Minus Mary Jane of course, who was with the McAndrews.
That could pull things together, and they must surely be in Bradford. But I can't find them at all.
John
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I have looked high & low for 1881, I agree would be key to tie together. The only thing I can think is census may be damaged, unreadable, mistranscribed or under another name.
Family also maybe took a return trip to Ireland for whatever reason.....
Added - also think there is enough evidence to link family together via baptism/ BMD/ godparent/ witness/ shared census etc, plus memory of OP Aunt re Holland family.
Hopefully the certs will help OP further.
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No certificates as yet.
Did find a grave of interest though, which is unusual for my family!
Florence Holland, a person who was of interest before I started this thread. Known to my Aunt.
Grave confirms what you guys had uncovered, which is always good. I think there's still some uncertainty at the top of this line, connecting Mary Burns with Florence. For now I have James Burns being Mary Burns brother.
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By the way, a marriage in Dec 1879, Manchester 8d 384 :-\
Burns, James
Smith, Mary
(also Patrick Gerity and Mary Burns!)
Lancashire BMD
1879
James Burns + Mary Byrne
James Burns + Mary Smith
Manchester Register Office or Registrar Attended
Ref MCR_RM/97/113
I would not rule out the marriage between James Burns & Mary Smith
Patrick Gerity married Mary Burns. Very useful note was left by a researcher in this case.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/8913/records/10816732
They posted on Patrick...Father - Thomas Gerity. Patrick a plasterer , address 18 Back Woodward St, Ancoats. Married at St Anns RCJunction St. Wife - Mary Burns, her father Michael Burns.(The Ellen Buxton on list is a different district so mistranscription)
So that leaves the Smith - Burns marrying each other.
As per Lancs BMD as mentioned above by John, on the Smith - Burns marriage. It could have been recorded as Mary Smith was (or nee) Byrne marrying James Burns, or similar.
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Yes, a great find, wilcoxon.
So now we know when John William died.
So if Margaret was illegitimate, then maybe the John Smith burial at Philips Park in 1872 is the right one. I would have thought that Mary would be buried there as well, probably in a common grave?
Speaking of Broughton!
Playing around with a godparent search again (despite myself!)
What is this all about? :-\
From Lancs OPC
Baptism at Bradford St Brigid, 7 Nov 1880
Joanna Burns, filia Jacobi Burns & Mariae (formerly Smith)
Born 24 Oct 1880
Abode 56 Gibbons Street
Godparents Arthur McCandrew?, Margareta Welsh
Notes: Ipsa matrimonium contraxit die 3 mensis Maii anno 1919 cum Leonardo Broughton in hac Ecclesia Stae Brigidae apud Bradford. Praesentibus testibus Jacobo Burns et Helenae Broughton. J. C. Holland
Not to harp on, but another link above which ties both families, and makes it seem unlikely that James Burns & Mary Smith nee Byrne/Burns were siblings.
Baptism above of Joanna or Annie/Anne as later called, married Ernest Hesford 1902 and then Leonard Broughton in 1919. Annie can found in census with parents in 1891 see reply # 60 by John. Also on census with the Holland family as Anne, sister to Catherine. Birthdates match on pension record of death of first Hesford husband, and marriages all link see reply #65.
Anne Broughton buried with John William Smith and sister Margaret Pendlebury nee Smith (Margaret baptised Burns, reply #51, by John) Burial for Anne and others link in reply #63 found by Wilcoxon.
Godparent in above baptism, Arthur McAndry/McAndrew was 3mths in 1861 (see reply #24 by Wilcoxon) by 1879 became stepson of Honora/Ann McAndry nee Byrne.
Godparents were normally chosen around the same age/birth decade as parents, or young enough, who could then step in if parents were absent or died. (and still be young) Not sure if it was one from each side or random.
Not looked for the Welsh connection or Smiths. Best on new thread for those, if intended, as lengthy threads can sometimes have info lost or is hard to find, or take in, amongst a lot of posts.
Just a few thoughts from this lenghthy thread research. FH can be costly, but if able at some point, I think the 1879 marriage for James Burns & Mary Smith could be informative.
Both marriages 1864 & 1879 fathers should hopefully match, and confirm. Also if Honora/Ann Byrne is a sister to Mary, it should be same, unless a curve ball drops.
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Cas, thank you and agreed in the long thread. My head is spinning from all the info.
On the Hollands side of things, I’m now happy that Florence Holland is the daughter of Ben and Catherine Holland, with Catherine being the daughter of James Byrne/Burns and Mary Byrne. I’m happy this connection works because one of Florence’s brothers has my Grandmother Catherine Cain as a Godparent.
As you say, there are still some questions at the very top of this tree.
When I get the certs, I’ll post a new thread. Just to help me, was this ever the right place for this thread or should in be in another location?
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No all ok, posting on begginers board lets others know that you are just starting out.
Other than that, you could have posted on the Lancs board, and mentioned you were beginning research, it makes no difference. Normally those well versed in FH don't post on this board.
I will say you have been quite lucky to have so much info given starting with the surname Smith.
Very few (general look ups) go thís length....
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Don't forget to link this thread to the new certs thread or info could be duplicated.
A bit of a no no on RootsChat, as it is a time waster for others researching info already found.
Added - am sure those involved in researching this thread would like to see the outcome/info from those certs. So maybe post here the new thread link and/or name, so we can be aware and find it.
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Thanks for the guidance Cas
I have ordered the marriage cert for James Burns / Mary Smith in 1879.
I'm warming to the idea of this Mary being Mary Jane's mother, remarrying after the death of John Smith. My aunt, whose memory is failing called Florence Holland her mum's step sister, implying that Mary Jane re-married. I have a pretty good record of Mary Jane until her death in 1921 so she didn't remarry.
If Florence was just a cousin, where did the step-sister story come from? If, as we are now looking at, Mary SMith remarried after John Smith's death, then Catherine Burns, Florence's mother) would have been Mary Jane's step-sister.
I'm going to adjust my tree and see how it looks.
We'll see what the above marriage cert says.
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Couple more baptisms at Bradford St Brigid
8 July 1883
Catherina Byrne, filia Jacobi Byrne & Mariae (formerly Byrne)
Born 26 Jan 1883
Abode 10 Chatham Street
Godparents Thomas Welsh, Maria Joanna Smith
24 October 1886
Jacobus Burns, filius Jacobi Burns & Mariae (formerly Byrne)
Born 15 Oct 1886
Abode 75 Simpson Street
Godparents Jacobi McAndrew, Anna McDonnough
I am not sure where the step sisters story comes in, but Mary Jane Cain nee smith was godmother to Catherine Holland nee Burns/Byrne, as above states.
Also following the evidence/records, it looks very much like they shared the same mother, Mary.
So were also likely half siblings, not step siblings. The children of MJ & Catherine would be cousins.
The family from records appear a very close and tight knit family group. The Cain children were also godparents to other Holland children. (see records posted by Jonwarrn)
Hopefully the certs may shed more light. Other than that I can only suggest DNA testing, if not already.
Added - A possibility, if receptive, would also ask Aunt to test, as a generation closer. You could manage/be manager of her test if she is unable, once results are in.
Cas
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As per the super help I have been receiving here, I've started a continuation thread - Smith's Help 2!, which hopefully you can find here...
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=895347.0 (https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=895347.0)