RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Yorkshire (West Riding) => Topic started by: Bilham on Thursday 06 November 25 23:37 GMT (UK)
-
In my tree I have a Thomas Henry Dranfield (born 1845, Kirkheaton) I believe he married Rebecca Rhodes (born 1849, Kirkheaton) on 13 Jun 1869. It is difficult to be sure as they never appear together on a census but I have the marriage record. What I do know is that Thomas had two children Ebor Dransfield - 1875 and George Dransfield - 1878 (they are with him in the 1881 census living in Dewsbury). My problems are
1 I can find no record of Ebor Dransfield's birth.
2 I do have a record for George Henry Dransfield's birth in Dewsbury to Thomas Dransfield but the mother is shown as Ann Powell. I cannot find any record of a marriage between Thomas Dransfield and Ann Powell.
I also cannot see any death record for either Rebecca Dransfield or Ann Powell yet in the 1881 census Thomas is shown as a widower with the two children and they are staying with his brother and family in Dewsbury.
I have searched and searched but can't solve the conundrum.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
-
Birth
DRANSFIELD, EBER mother - POWELL
GRO Reference: 1875 D Quarter in DEWSBURY Volume 09B Page 703
-
In 1871 Rebecca Dransfield (age 21, married) is living with her mother Nancy Rhodes in Hopton.
Thomas (married) is living with his parents.
What a strange lot, this Dransfield family of yours. :)
What information is on those birth certificates? Address? Who was registering the birth? Mother's occupation?
-
Baptism 12 Aug 1878 Dewsbury West Town St Matthew
George Henry Dransfield – son of Thomas and Ann, weaver, abode West Town
Didn’t see a baptism for Ebor.
Is this another child, Mary Ann baptised in 19 Dec 1879 – born 18 Dec 1879 (aka Emma?)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JWSK-454?lang=en
Birth
DRANSFIELD, EMMA Mother - POWELL
GRO Reference: 1879 D Quarter in DEWSBURY Volume 09B Page 710
Death
DRANSFIELD, EMMA Age 0
GRO Reference: 1879 D Quarter in DEWSBURY Volume 09B Page 480
Maybe?
Death registration for an Ann Dransfield (age 28) in Dewsbury 1879.
DRANSFIELD, ANN 28
GRO Reference: 1879 D Quarter in DEWSBURY Volume 09B Page 480
-
An Ann Dransfield born 1851 was in the GRO deaths for 1879 in Dewsbury.
A private tree as Rebecca's death as 1878 but cannot find any record of it.
Just noticed Rebecca is the aunt of the great Yorkshire & England all-rounder Wilfred Rhodes.
John
-
A private tree as Rebecca's death as 1878 but cannot find any record of it.
There is a Rebecca Dransfield (age 36) death in 1878 in Ashton Under Lyne.
I’m not convinced. Age is not quite right, and place is a bit odd. (Rebecca was born in 1849).
-
I was just looking at Yorkshire deaths so missed that 1.
It does seem out of place.
-
Thomas Dransfield married Ann Powell 1874, Huddeersfield district.
John
-
Lord this is complex. And I do think, the Dransfield's are an "interesting" lot (and have become quite addictive).
I had spotted the Eber Dransfield birth in Dewsbury (although somehow I failed to notice Powell as mother). The very annoying thing is that when I do a GRO index search on those details it tells me there are "No Matching Results Found"; I've tried many different combinations of information and many different settings and have also reported it to GRO. As GRO index refuses to find it, would it be a waste to order a PDF of the certificate?
Rebecca's death in 1878? I really do doubt the evidence here; the death is in Ashton-under-lyne.
Neale 1961 - birth and death of Emma Dransfield to Powell looks like an excellent find and the birth and death in the 4th quarter plus the death of Ann Dransfield in the the same quarter sounds like a terrible birth tragedy. I've just downloaded the birth record and the mother is Ann Powell; father Thomas Dransfield and they are at Beckett Nook, Dewsbury. Father is a "seamer". Not sure what this is. In the past he was down as a weaver.
Then we have the death of Ann Dransfield. If she is Ann Dransfield, where is the death of the first Mrs Dransfield - Rebecca? I can't find her in the 1881 census but I am not convinced about the 1878 death record and where on earth is the marriage of Thomas Dransfield to Ann Powell? And finally, why do some of these records leave off Thomas's middle name!?
More work needed here :(
-
Birth
DRANSFIELD, EBER mother - POWELL
GRO Reference: 1875 D Quarter in DEWSBURY Volume 09B Page 703
Here is the GRO index, but Eber is registered as a female.
-
Thomas Dransfield married Ann Powell 1874, Huddeersfield district.
This is the marriage. You will have to order the certificate, as it was a civil marriage.
I wonder if Thomas calls himself a widower on this record. Perhaps, don’t “assume” that Rebecca was dead by 1874.
You will need to look at the marriage if you want to track down Ann Powell.
-
I have found an interesting article in the Huddersfield Chronicle (12 Jan 1877). Seems highly relevant - it's in Dewsbury; relates to a Thomas Dransfield who has neglected wife and two children. I've tried to copy the image here but it didn't work; neither the wife nor the children's names are mentioned. "the prisoner stated that he and his wife had lived unhappily together, in consequence of the interference of her father and mother". Note that Rebecca Dransfield was with her father and mother in the 1871 census but we can't prove that she had children and we can't find Ann Powell/Dransfield! Also, the article is in 1877 and George Henry wasn't born until 1878.
I'm still confused!
-
….. father Thomas Dransfield and they are at Beckett Nook, Dewsbury. Father is a "seamer". Not sure what this is. In the past he was down as a weaver.
Are you sure it is “seamer”. In 1881 census, he is a “teamer”, (carter with a team of horses or oxen.)
-
Don’t get hung up on Thomas missing his middle name on some documents. It’s fairly common to NOT use middle names.
-
Thomas's mother came from Cork so might be a long shot she might have died on a visit to Ireland so wouldn't be registered over here.
His birth seems to have been registered & baptised as Thomas Henry but his elder brother was also call Henry so he might have dropped it.
It does look like he died in 1916 as Thomas H. Dransfield.
John
-
I have found an interesting article in the Huddersfield Chronicle (12 Jan 1877). Seems highly relevant - it's in Dewsbury; relates to a Thomas Dransfield who has neglected wife and two children.
Not sure this is your Thomas. By 1877 he only had 1 son - Ebor, to mother Ann.
No sign that Thomas had any children with Rebecca.
-
After a small investment with the GRO index I have some more clarity. Eber (Oct 1875); George Henry (Feb 1878) and Emma (Dec 1879) were children of Thomas Henry and Ann Elizabeth (nee Powell). In order, Thomas Henry was a Cloth Weaver (Eber); a cloth weaver (George Henry) and a teamer (Emma). They were living at Hall Lane (1875); Whitehead Row (1878) and Beckett Nook (1879).
Sadly, Ann Elizabeth Dransfield (nee Powell) died of exhaustion from 6 hours of labour; Emma also died.
Here is my next problem, I have also found the birth of a child Mary Ann Dransfield in Dewsbury Moor (Beckett Nook is in Dewsbury Moor). The parents are Thomas Henry Dransfield and Ann Elizabeth (per the baptism record) - no surname but Ann Elizabeth interesting. The birth is also on 18 Dec 1879 (!) exactly the same day as Emma's birth and the day of Ann Elizabeth's death from childbirth complexities.
My assumption was that this was the birth of twins but, when I go onto GRO there are no matches for a birth of a Mary Ann Dransfield.
-
The baptism was the day after the birth, and is marked as a private baptism, often carried out in a hurry at home when the child might not live. Given there's a baptism but not birth or death reg of Mary Ann, and a birth and death reg for Emma, but no baptism that I can see, I wonder if it's the same child who was baptised quickly with one name, but another name was used for the official docs later on
-
Hi Mabel
A brilliant deduction. I say the "PB" on the side but had no idea what it meant.
Bilham
-
Announcement in the newspaper for the marriage 1874
-
Thanks Willsy
Added to my tree as further evidence.
Now if I could just track down the death of Rebecca Dransfield! It has to occur somewhere between about June 1869 and October 1874!
-
Hi Mabel
I have just seen that the formal reporting of the death was undertaken by Joseph Dransfield (Thomas's brother and Emma/Mary Ann's uncle.
I now need to decide what name to use on my ancestry record. The baptised name or the legal/civil name?
-
The baptism was the day after the birth, and is marked as a private baptism, often carried out in a hurry at home when the child might not live. Given there's a baptism but not birth or death reg of Mary Ann, and a birth and death reg for Emma, but no baptism that I can see, I wonder if it's the same child who was baptised quickly with one name, but another name was used for the official docs later on
That was also my thinking and why I suggested it in reply #3. :)
-
Now if I could just track down the death of Rebecca Dransfield! It has to occur somewhere between about June 1869 and October 1874!
Well she was alive in the 1871 census.
As I previously advised, don't assume she died before Thomas married in 1874.
It's possible the marriage to Rebecca was not consummated, and they both agreed to move on. Rebecca may have married again too.
Looking at the 1874 marriage certificate, does Thomas call himself a widower?
-
I've found Ann's burial, image is the cemetery record; wife of Thomas
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01u2x/
Cemetery records are listed here
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01u2y/
-
Thanks Neale 1961. I'd known it and then forgotten the 1871 census.
I've just looked at the law as it was then (MAtrimonial Causes ACt 1857. Even if the marriage wasn't consumated they would have had to petition the court to grant a decree of nullity. I'm still stuck with the fear that Thomas could be a bygamist if I can't find a death (or anullment). I may have to do a cemetry registers search (somehow)!
Bilham
-
Have found the burial of Rebecca in 1878 Ashton-under-Lyne
Transcribed and looks like Dronsfield
The address is 22 Hill Street West
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01u2z/
-
I've just looked at the law as it was then (MAtrimonial Causes ACt 1857. Even if the marriage wasn't consumated they would have had to petition the court to grant a decree of nullity.
However, only the very wealthy could afford to go to court for a divorce.
-
Further information found. I have located a spreadsheet of all the burials at Kirkheaton Parish Church (I've already searched the Dewsbury burials and found nothing). Again, no record of a burial of Rebecca Rhodes or Rebecca Dransfield but the spreadsheet indicates that a number of pages of the parish records are illegible - it doesn't mention which years so I am trying to contact the owner to see if he knows.
However, what I did find was the birth of a child - Wilkinson Rhodes - to a Rebecca Rhodes of Houses Hill Kirkheaton. No father was named and the birth was eight months before she married Thomas Henry Dransfield. Then in 1870 the child died of a scalded chest (Thomas Henry there at the death and reported it). Did this end the marriage as she was living with her parents in 1871 and Thomas Henry was back living with his mother and siblings.
-
Interesting find. Both the death and burial records make it quite clear that Thomas was not the father.
What a sad death.
-
And finally...to cap it all off, Thomas married Ann Powell but the marriage only last 5 years before she died birthing her third child who also died. They rushed a priest to the house (Ann may already have been dead by then), they christened the child Mary Ann although a day later when Thomas and his brother went to register the birth and death of the child, they called the child Emma.
I can find the burial of Ann in the parish records for Dewsbury but can't find the burial of either an Emma or Mary Ann anywhere near the date of Ann's burial. :'(
-
I also looked for the burial of the baby Emma / Mary Ann.
I wondered if she was buried with the mother. Seems likely.
-
Hi
The last time I heard from Richard who did the Kirkheaton burial spreadsheet he wasn't in very good health so I don't know if he can answer any questions.
I have seen the registers for the period you are looking & they are legible.
Thomas Dransfield was sentenced a few times for debt so I would think the article mentioned is him.
-
Thanks JR
I hope he's ok.
I was taking the illegible reference from his spreadsheet where he refers to "illegible entries here" and "pages illegible here". I've looked back at the spreadhseet (the references are down at row 26047 and onwards) but I don't know what year they refer to as the date of burial order is strange. At those rows I have a mixture of 1865 to 1883 and then late 1600s so I can't tell what dates are covered by the illegible entries. However, more to the point, if you've seen the original entries for the period we are looking at 1871 - 1874 and they are illegible with no Rebecca Dransfield (or Rebecca Rhodes) I'm back to (unfortunately) making assumptions that she died at some location during that period. Maybe she moved away due to the stigma of 1) an illegitimate child and 2) the death by scalding?