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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: Ronda231 on Thursday 06 November 25 01:06 GMT (UK)
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Hi all,
Yet another request from me, for assistance in understanding the text and people in a ScotlandsPeople birth record.
I hope that I'm not taking the pitcher to the well too often!
According to ScotlandsPeople, the image below is the 11-1-1595 baptism record for one John Wryght in Clackmannan with parents John Wryght and Jane Bruce [in B???hill ] and another Bruce as a witness?
Because the writing is so poor, I'm not really sure whereabouts on the page the record actually occurs. I've marked up two entries which I think are the relevant ones, the lower one possibly includes a Drysdale as a witness.
Any help would again be much appreciated.
Many thanks and best regards
copyright image removed
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It's definitely the top record of the two you have marked.
This one has Jhone and Janet in the top line (the line marked with P).
The second of the records has Wm and Elspet in the top line.
The first line of the top record ends with: in Kershill
Based on the Katherine in the middle line of the last record on the page it is definitely a K.
Janet and the first witness look to me to be surnamed Bruce.
The first witness is Ro(ber)t and it's possible he is identified as younge(r) as well as Bruce. Whether that's a name or a description I wouldn't like to say.
It's actually a very legible page. I would think a proper Scottish expert will find it easy.
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Thank you very much horselydown86
You're pretty much a 'difficult handwriting expert' in your own right!
It took me a while to actually see "Katherine" in the later entry, even when pointed out to me - that's a very strange K - I thought it was a B.
I agree that the record is very legible, but unless you are actually a proper Scottish expert, the text is largely unintelligible.
In the second entry I guess the witnesses to be Wm. Moresone and Jhone Drysdall and I can see Clackmannan perhaps at the end of the first line.
Thanks again and best regards
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In the second entry I guess the witnesses to be Wm. Moresone and Jhone Drysdall and I can see Clackmannan perhaps at the end of the first line.
I agree with Wm Moresone but I think he might be identified as Master just before his name (the word being made from an M plus an -er brevigraph).
There's definitely a Clakm______ placename in that record and two others further up.
I believe it's: David Drysdall
ADDED:
The word which begins with Clakm probably ends with na(n).
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Hi again,
Some extra info from ScotlandsPeople.
The two baptism entries on the 18th January are for:
18-1-1595 Baptism of Janet Kerie of WILLIAM KERIE/ELSPET COUSTOUN
18-1-1595 Baptism of James Gorthie of JHONE GORTHIE/HELINE DONALDSON
So we get another K from this which effectively confirms horselydown86's previous point.
Wryght/Bruce marriage record 1594
The Scotlandspeople marriage record for John Wryght & Janet Bruce on 2nd February 1594 in Clackmannan, gives us a second viewing of where Janet Bruce originates from.
Does it still look like Kershill? This would indicate Janet comes from Kersehill, Airth and is one of the Airth Bruces.
Best regards
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Does it still look like Kershill?
On first looking I would say the answer is no.
The typical C16th K will have two loops (one on top of the other) to the right of the main ascender, as we clearly see in Kershill and Katherine from the first image. It is also commonly the same form in both upper and lower case use.
This letter doesn't appear to have two loops. It looks like B. It also looks very like the (explicitly lower-case) b in two examples of february in this clip.
Furthermore, I think we have in park myll in the second last line of this clip, where the k doesn't look like the first letter of Janet's placename.
On the other hand, if Janet's surname is Bruce, the B doesn't look much like the first letter of her placename. It's to be regretted that a smudge has affected this part of the page.
I'd like to see the full page for the marriage record if you can post it, just in case.
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A copy of the Marriage record for John Wryght & Janet Bruce 2nd February 1594 in Clackmannan - enclosed as requested.
Also returning briefly to the Birth record in the first post where one of the witnesses is Robert Bruce younger, could he be from "Lynmiln"
Thanks again horselydown86 and best regards
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Also returning briefly to the Birth record in the first post where one of the witnesses is Robert Bruce younger, could he be from "Lynmiln"
I think the place for Robert Bruce is probably: lynmyl
Also I noticed that the second witness on the same line is:
wattie wryt in [thapell?/chapell?]
I'm not 100% on wattie but am very confident it begins with wat___
Thanks for posting the full marriage page. There are plenty of examples of k.
In the third last line: ...ord(er) of the kirk for keping...
In the sixth last line: ...to kepe the kirk...
In the first record, second last line: ...of ye kirk...
In the second record, second last line: ...kepe the kirk...
There is plenty of variation in those examples of k.
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Thank you very much horselydown86.
Your expertise and hard work has been most useful!
Just to round things off and complement this discussion (as source documents for the Bruce family in Lyn mill are few and far between) I'm enclosing a copy of a 1597 baptism record sheet for Margaret Drysdale with parents John Drysdale and Margaret Bruce which gives some additional details:
ADAM BRUCE baptism 31/12/1596 to THOM BRUCE/JANET MCKIE in Lynmill Clackmannan
MARGARET DRYSDAL baptism 8-1-1597 to JHONE DRYSDAL/MARGARET BRUCE Clackmannan
??? Bruce ...in Lynmil as witness
Also an Alexander Drysdale as a witness to another baptism
JHONE DRYSDAL baptism 8-1-1597 to OLEFER DRYSDAL/ISSOBEL RICHE Clackmannan
I've marked on the sheet what I'm guessing are occurrences of Bruce, Drysdale and Lyn mill.
Best regards
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MARGARET DRYSDAL baptism 8-1-1597 to JHONE DRYSDAL/MARGARET BRUCE Clackmannan
??? Bruce ...in Lynmil as witness
Almost certainly:
Rot bruce eldar
That is: Robert
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Unfortunately the images in this thread have been removed by the Rootschat Copyright police - no comment on that.
To give some historical context, I've enclosed a page from W. Downing Bruce's publication:
Collections Towards a History of the County of Clackmannan
https://www.clackmannanshire.scot/index.php/history/collections
"No.71. - 24th October, 1596 [1594?] - Charter from Sir Robert Bruce of Clackmannan, knight, to his loving cousin, Robert Bruce, millar of Lindmill [Linn Mill], and Agnes Wright, his spouse, of the houses and lands of Lindmill, which formerly belonged to the deceased Andrew Bruce, father of the said Robert, and were near the lands of David Bruce of Green, on the east side, and the said David Bruce's brew-house on the west. (W.D.B.)
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Robert Bruce, a son of Sir David Bruce of Clackmannan had a grant of the lands of Lindmill ; he was probably father of the above Andrew. Thomas Bruce was "laird of Lindmill," 1599-1603 ; he married Janet Mackie, and had a son Adam, born 1597. In 1604, he was served heir to his brother James. The family continued to occupy the mills at Lindmill down to the beginning of the present century [1800]. Mr John Bruce, Sheriff of Clackmannan, who died 8th January, 1815, at the age of 85, was a son of a Mr Bruce, Lindmill."
Best regards