RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Derry (Londonderry) => Topic started by: GRob81 on Thursday 06 November 25 00:57 GMT (UK)
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Hi I'd like to reach out to anyone who might be able to help with researching my family tree. My father came from Dungiven, however his Grandfather (Robert) came from Feeny and is buried in Banagher Parish Churchyard.
His Great Grandfather (David) came from Tullentrain and I believe belonged to Cumber Upper and potentially is buried there along with family members.
I'd love to hear from other potential family members to help put our family tree together.
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Hi There & Welcome
Do you want to post some dates etc so that members can help you ?
Regards
Tara
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Welcome to RootsChat :)
As Tara said, we need some dates.
His Great Grandfather (David) came from Tullentrain and I believe belonged to Cumber Upper....
To give RootsChatters some idea of the area here's Tullintrain townland in the civil parish of Upper Cumber.
https://www.townlands.ie/londonderry/tirkeeran/upper-cumber/claudy/tullintrain/
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https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search/results.jsp?searchMoreVisible=&census_year=1901&surname=Robinson+&firstname=&county19011911=Londonderry&county1821=&county1831=&county1841=&county1851=&parish=&ward=&barony=&townland=Tullintrain&houseNumber=&ded=Claudy&age=&sex=&search=Search&ageInMonths=&relationToHead=&religion=&education=&occupation=&marriageStatus=&yearsMarried=&birthplace=&nativeCountry=&language=&deafdumb=&causeOfDeath=&yearOfDeath=&familiesNumber=&malesNumber=&femalesNumber=&maleServNumber=&femaleServNumber=&estChurchNumber=&romanCatNumber=&presbNumber=&protNumber=&marriageYears=&childrenBorn=&childrenLiving=
Oh No . . . I don't think I've done that link correctly to all the Robinsons in Tullintrain 🤯🤯🤯
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House 5 in Tullintrain (Claudy, Londonderry)
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Londonderry/Claudy/Tullintrain/1527467/
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Hi thank you for your replies. Schoolboy error in not providing dates !! 🙄
My Great Grandfather Robert was born in 1848 / 1849. He married Ellen Smith in Banagher Parish Church in 1881 and he died in 1906.
I believe his father to be a David Robinson who was born in 1815 and died in 1883. I believe he married Jane Morrison.
Just last night I found a possible link to David's father my Great Great Great Grandfather who was also called David and who was married to someone called Matilda. But I have no dates of birth, Marriage or death yet.
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My Great Grandfather Robert was born in 1848 / 1849. He married Ellen Smith in Banagher Parish Church in 1881 and he died in 1906.
Just adding URL links for others reading-
Marriage 7 June 1881 - both Robert and Ellen living in Rallagh townland.
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/marriage_returns/marriages_1881/11000/8021658.pdf
https://www.townlands.ie/londonderry/keenaght/banagher-keenaght-portion/feeny/rallagh/
Death 2 December 1906 at Rallagh. His son Robert was the informant.
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1906/05550/4557024.pdf
Son Robert, mother and siblings at Rallagh in 1911 census.
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Londonderry/Feeny/Rallagh/595929/
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai002823987/
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Hi Again . . .
So re Robert & Ellen Smith . . .
Is your tree for this couple up to the present day complete and it's just backwards that you are wishing to achieve ?
Sorry for all the questions, I just don't want to post a lot of info that you may already have . . .
Thanks
Tara
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Re Robert Robinson & Ellen Smith's marriage cert . . .
There is a first time for everything . . .
I have NEVER come across the registrar just writing DEAD under the father's name . . .
UGH how frustrating . . . Did this person not realise that in 140 years time we would NEED this information 😂
Joking aside I am sure others have come across this before but not me 😂
Tara
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Just noted . . .
That does mess up your stated timeline though . . .
Robert married in 1881 and states that his father is dead
You state that his presumed father DAVID died in 1883 🤔🤔🤔
Tara
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Hi Tara.
Yes that's right. I believe I have been able to find out all information relating to Robert and Ellen's marriage, their children, grandchildren and up to present day.
I would really love to find as much as I can prior to Robert.
I believe his parents to be David and Jane Morrison and Robert's grandparents to be David and a lady called Matilda (surname unknown at this stage)
***Now one slight has arisen over the last day or two which is a link to a marriage between a Robert Robinson and a Sarah Jane Hood. Did Robert marry and his first wife died then he married Ellen ?
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That's very true Tara !!
I hadn't clocked that !!
I believe I know where David should be buried but I haven't been able to visit the graveyard yet to see and frustratingly no graves in that graveyard have been recorded on "findagrave"
I intend to subscribe to roots Ireland as the local council have all their information held on that site which might give me more
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Given naming patterns . . .
ie Robert giving his first children the names DAVID and Eliza JANE could strongly suggest that David and Jane were his parents or could be a total red herring. . .
I need to recheck that 1883 death cert first . .
Tara
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https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/view/?record_id=cide-7162107
This appears to be David's death in 1877
Tara
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https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/view/?record_id=cima-2622936
For reference this is the Sarah Hood marriage that had you worried . . .
I think what has happened is that you got sidelined by the incorrect David passing away in 1883.
THAT David had a son called Robert who married Sarah Hood but it's not the same family . . .
I hope this has you back in the right track . . .
I think you need to ignore all (Binnn) sorry I can't make out the Townland 😂 references . . .
Tara
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The INCORRECT townland appears to be BINN or BEANN . . .
I hope I have that right 🤞
Tara
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Binn
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/5146856#map=12/54.9046/-7.0896
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Gosh my head's becoming pickled !!!
On my family tree I have my great grandfather listed as Robert (1848-1906)
I also have a brother listed for him called David born 1851, BUT I have him as marrying a Lavinia Montgomery.
I also have that this Robert and David had a sister Isabella born 1846, Thomas born 1855, John 1855, James 1861, Catherine 1863, Jane 1864 (8 children) these are all connected to Binn area
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UGH
I had written up a message earlier and forgot to hit 'post' and now have lost it and have forgotten what I had written 🙄🙄🙄
I do think you need some help with the Townlands, others on here are great with that.
There do appear to have been two David's having sons called Robert at roughly the same time in roughly the same area (again, help from others discerning Binn and Tullintrain would be helpful).
Tara
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I think step 1 is to pause and retrace your steps to be 100% sure that you are working with the correct family . . .
Which child of Robert Robinson and Ellen Smith is your DIRECT relation ?
Tara
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Robert and Ellen had 7 children. One of those children was Thomas born in 1896 who was my grandfather.
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Hi Again,
So I presume that you are 100% sure that Robert Robinson in Rallegh in 1901 is your Great Grandfather . . .
That would lead to the presumption that Robert Robinson marrying Ellen Smith is 100% correct . . .
This leads to the fact that Robert Robinson states that in 1881 his father was deceased . . . I am a little concerned here that there is no father's name listed and I'm really hoping that his father WAS actually David . . .
Working on this presumption for now . . .
It concludes that the David Robinson that died in 1883 can NOT be his father . . .
Which would lead to the presumption that David Robinson that died in 1877 in Tullintrain would HAVE to be his father . . .
This is where it gets trickier . . .
What has you connecting your family line back to Tullintrain OR Binn ?
Was it something you were told or do you have something actually tying Robert back to either of these townlands ?
Sorry for all the questions, I just don't want you going down the wrong path 😁
Tara
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Robert and Ellen had 7 children. One of those children was Thomas born in 1896 who was my grandfather.
URL link-
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/birth_returns/births_1896/02165/1820504.pdf
Born Rallagh - 28 June 1896.
10?
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai002823987/
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Note that the David Robinson who died in 1877 was a Batchelor at the time.
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Hi Scotmum
Well Spotted . . .
So, his dad can't be David d 1883 OR David d 1877 . . .
How many David Robinsons were in this area ?
UGH, back to the drawing board 🙄
Tara
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Hi There
So I may have something or it could be a red herring . . .
OP thought there were 7 children but Kiltaglassen pointed out that 1911 census stated 10 children . . .
I rechecked Robert & Ellen's marriage and noted that Ellen's father was called Andrew and wondered why none of the children on 1901 had this name . . .
When looking for him in 1901, to see had he moved out I think I found him . . . LIVING NEXT DOOR to Robert & Ellen with an older brother called Robert and an Aunt called Margaret (which would make her Robert Sr's sister . . .
I'm off to investigate further 😁
Tara
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https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Londonderry/Feeny/Rallagh/1524807/
This is Andrew and Robert Jr with two aunts, living next door to Robert Sr & Ellen . . .
Tara
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Andrew was back living with his father in 1911 so the Margaret & Eliza mentioned in 1901 would HAVE to be Robert Sr sisters . . .
Does this make Robert Sr a Rallagh man born & bred ???
Tara
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@GRob81, I think Tara also asked earlier, what brought you to focus on and/or believe that Robert's father was a David, when no name is mentioned on Robert's marriage?
Was it oral family history, handed down over the years, or is there any written source (official record or otherwise), for it?
Just to keep all possibilities open at moment, have you given any consideration to Robert having been born to an unmarried Robinson (or otherwise), female?
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Andrew was back living with his father in 1911
Tara
Didn't Robert senior die in 1906 though?
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The dreaded typo,
That should have said FAMILY 😁😁😁
I MUST proofread before hitting POST
Tara
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https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/view/?record_id=cide-7807846
IF I am correct in thinking that Robert was a Rallagh man then this would be his mother Elizabeth's death in 1877 in Rallagh.
Tara
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Sidenote
Andrew Smith will Incase you don't have it . . .
https://willcalendars.nationalarchives.ie/search/cwa/details.jsp?id=1639540152
Tara
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I should have also stated that Robert Jr moved back in with his family by 1911
Tara
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https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Londonderry/Feeny/Rallagh/595928/
Margaret & Eliza Robinson in 1911 for reference
Tara
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Hi Again,
So I presume that you are 100% sure that Robert Robinson in Rallegh in 1901 is your Great Grandfather . . .
That would lead to the presumption that Robert Robinson marrying Ellen Smith is 100% correct . . .
This leads to the fact that Robert Robinson states that in 1881 his father was deceased . . . I am a little concerned here that there is no father's name listed and I'm really hoping that his father WAS actually David . . .
Working on this presumption for now . . .
It concludes that the David Robinson that died in 1883 can NOT be his father . . .
Which would lead to the presumption that David Robinson that died in 1877 in Tullintrain would HAVE to be his father . . .
This is where it gets trickier . . .
What has you connecting your family line back to Tullintrain OR Binn ?
Was it something you were told or do you have something actually tying Robert back to either of these townlands ?
Sorry for all the questions, I just don't want you going down the wrong path 😁
Tara
Hi Tara
My Dad knows first hand of his connections to Rallagh and Tullentrain. He refers to his Uncle Johnny having a farm at Tullentrain.
To be fair the "Binn" name didn't mean anything to him and maybe that was me going off in a tangent and have possibly gone down the wrong track.
That said with a large family they most probably are connected
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Hi GRob
Have you read all the updates . . .
At the moment it's looking like neither David in Binn or David in Tullintrain could be Robert's father . . .
Robert had two sisters living next door to him in Rallagh . . .
Again, we need to clarify where you got that Robert's father was called David . . .
Thanks
Tara
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Andrew was back living with his father in 1911
Tara
Didn't Robert senior die in 1906 though?
Indeed he did, scotmum.
See reply #6
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https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/view/?record_id=cide-7807846
IF I am correct in thinking that Robert was a Rallagh man then this would be his mother Elizabeth's death in 1877 in Rallagh.
Informant was Margaret Robinson.
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Correct Kiltaglassen,
That's the lady that Robert Jr and Andrew were living with in 1901
Tara
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GRob,
Your Dad was the son of Thomas . .
Thomas had a brother called John who would have to have been the uncle who had the farm in Tullintrain.
John was born approx 1892 in Rallagh
Is it not feasible that when he grew up he bought a farm in Tullintrain as opposed to the family actually being from there ???
Tara
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Correct Kiltaglassan,
That's the lady that Robert Jr and Andrew were living with in 1901
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai000615760/
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Guys thank you all so so much for your input. I'm trying to read each comment, take notes and refer to my own.
To address the connection between Robert and "his father" David.
Robert is buried with Ellen and some children in Banagher Parish Church. I have researched the church records and could not find any Robinson born into that church in the preceding years. The first record of a Robinson at the church was the marriage between Robert and Ellen in 1881.
So I began looking at other local churches, the next being Cumber Upper and here I stumbled into a treasure trove of Robinson's. The church records go back to 1811 so I was able to research from there and have written down every Robinson birth and parents. *Note of caution here the church records at this time only detail the date of baptism and NOT the date of birth. Robert was born in 1848 and the first mention of any Robert being born was a baptismal record for May 6th 1849 the parents being a David and Jane, farmers from Binn. As with most records they are tricky to read but I subsequently found 8 further baptismal records for children of David & Jane...I may have missed one or two
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I'm so sorry but I think what has happened is that you have found a Robinson family in a further parish and 'adopted' them . . .
Please correct me if I'm wrong . . .
It's still to be determined what Robert's father was actually called and I'm pretty sure his mother was called Elizabeth.
I'm pretty sure that Margaret and Eliza that lived next door to Robert were his sisters.
Robert's two eldest sons were on the census with Margaret and Eliza and are listed as their nephews.
Tara
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A Margaret Robinson of Rallagh successfully claimed the OAP, according to various newspaper lists in February 1909. Pity I am not seeing her claim form in the archives, as it should have confirmed the names of her parents.
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Oh that would be a great lead . . .
Her sister Eliza was a similar age, I wonder did she apply too ?
Tars
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Where are you collecting your information from please ? National archives ?
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All records that I have stated I have also posted the links to ie.
irishgenealogy which is our government run site which holds our BMD records
and our 1901 & 1911 census
Tara
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I hope this record helps you . . .
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/view/?record_id=cide-5693965
Your grandad Thomas Robinson had a brother called Robert Robinson.
In 1919 this Robert Robinson (still living in Rallagh) registered the death of Margaret Robinson of Rallagh.
On this record he states that he was Margaret's NEPHEW.
Tara
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Oooh
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/view/?record_id=cide-5064107
I have found another sibling of Robert Senior . . .
A David Robinson of Rallagh !
Again, your Grandad's brother Robert Jr registered this death.
Tara
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https://willcalendars.nationalarchives.ie/search/cwa/details.jsp?id=1639228952
Robert Robinson will from 1906
Tara
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The Derry Standard of October 31st 1904, had an entry for the letting of land at Rallagh, for a Mr David Robinson, Donemana.
PRONI has an entry for:
Probate of the Will of David Robinson late of Donemana County Tyrone Saddler who died 19 June 1915
so matches the David who died at Rallagh. Therefore likely:
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Tyrone/Dunnamanagh/Dunnamanagh_Town/846896/
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tyrone/Dunnamanagh/Dunnamanagh/1750430/
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Great Find Scotsmum
I wondered why I couldn't find him in Londonderry . . .
Here he is in Tyrone in 1901
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tyrone/Dunnamanagh/Dunnamanagh/1750430/
Tara
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And in 1911
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Tyrone/Dunnamanagh/Dunnamanagh_Town/846896/
Tara
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I wonder could this possibly mean that the family originated in Tyrone as David states on the census that that is where he was born ?
Tara
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David appears to have been a church Vestryman too:
https://www.cotyroneireland.com/churchrecord/donagheadyVestrymen1870.html
Trade directory entry for David:
https://freepages.rootsweb.com/~cotyroneireland/genealogy/trade/donemana1874.html
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Sorry Scotmum
I just realized that I duplicated the census entries that you had already posted . . .
Tara
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https://willcalendars.nationalarchives.ie/search/cwa/details.jsp?id=1639456343
Will of David Robinson with Robert Robinson as one of the beneficiaries . . .
Obviously this is Robert Jr
Tara
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https://willcalendars.nationalarchives.ie/search/cwa/details.jsp?id=1639456343
Will of David Robinson with Robert Robinson as one of the beneficiaries . . .
Robert Robinson was one of the executors.
The Reverend James H Gatchell D.D. and William Counison Miller the other executors.
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Hi
I'm just back from a weekend away so wasn't able to reply all the time.
For the past 90 mins or so I've removed portions of the newer parts of my tree which don't seem to now sit right and I've gone through each of your messages properly and have added details in accordingly.
So going on the basis that Elizabeth is the mother of Robert, what's my best option for going back now.
Bearing in mind that the graveyard at Banagher Parish Church has no record of a baptism, marriage of burial prior to the marriage of Robert and Ellen in 1881, which you would assume means that this particular branch of the Robinson tree belonged to another church nearby (which led me to look at Cumber Upper)
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Burial in a Church of Ireland churchyard doesn't mean they were members of the Church of Ireland. In any case, their burial records may not be complete.
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Hi There,
The best we can do at the moment is say that Robert's parents were Mr. & Elizabeth Robinson.
I am working with the presumption that the family aren't originally from Rallagh (I could be wrong on this though)
Ellen Smith's father was called Andrew Smith and was a farmer and appears on the GV in Rallagh.
Robert states that his father was also a farmer which means he most likely should appear on the Rallagh GV if the family were there at the time but the nearest is a John Robinson another townland but gut instinct is saying that isn't him.
I have look at pretty much all the male deaths for Robinson in Limavady up until 1877 when Elizabeth died but I don't spot any good matches.
He possibly died prior to 1864, when records started.
This may be when the family moved to Rallagh . . . Possibly Elizabeth was originally from there . . . Who Knows . . .
The stumbling block is that none of Robert's siblings, who we know for now, got married, so we still don't know the Christian name for Mr. Robinson.
So, as it stands we don't know Mr. Robinson's Christian name OR where the family originated.
You have asked how to take your tree back further, well for now you can't . . .
I know you found it tempting to look at a local parish and think that David & Jane Robinson in Binn were your ancestors but they aren't . . .
I think, for now, you have to be happy that at least you can clean your tree up and remove all the Binn Robinsons and add all your actual ancestors the Rallagh Robinsons . . .
I am sure that if anyone spots any further leads they shall post them . . .
Tara
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I've gone back to some photos I took of the Robinson headstones in the graveyard of Banagher Parish a number of weeks ago. Headstones are an invaluable source of information!!
As I mentioned before the main headstone I was looking for was my great grandparents which I found and has Robert & Ellen along with children Andrew died 1941, Margaret died 1941 aged 36 years and Eliza Jane aged .
Alongside this headstone is a much newer black headstone detailing the following burials: David Robinson died 16th Nov 1956 aged 69 years, his brother Robert died 28th March 1962 aged 81 years, their nephew Robin McMurray* 30th Dec 1975 aged 39 years *son of Margaret Robinson listed on above headstone. His father Herbert J. McMurray* 15th Dec 1984 aged 81 years. *Margaret Robinson's husband.
Just slightly in front of both of these headstones is a further black headstone which lists the grave of my grandfathers brother Matthew of Fincairn who died in 1950, his wife Eileen and children who died in 2006 and 2024.
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That's all great information to have :)
Tara
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I looked at every headstone in the graveyard while I was there and also noticed another Robinson at the top end of the church graveyard.
It's an interesting lead HOWEVER it still omits the husband name I'm desperately seeking !!
The headstone says:
Elizabeth Robinson died 14th August 1877 aged 70 years, her Son David 19th June 1915 aged 80 years, their Daughter Margaret 2nd Feb 1919 aged 81 years, their daughter Elizabeth 12th August 1923 aged 83 years.
***Very unusually for this time the father is not buried with the rest of the family !!!!
**Now several months ago my dad made a fleeting comment that he had no idea where the family came from prior to Feeny BUT he would not have been surprised if there had been a Tyrone connection. I didn't push him on this and really don't think he has anything to go on, but that now looks like an interesting possibility
There is one other headstone in the graveyard for Robinson's which reads in short:
Parents
William died 23rd sept 1914 aged 77 years
Margaret Ann died 21st may 1931 aged 83 years also their children: William died 1880 aged 7 years, John died 1894 aged 23 years, George died 1906 aged 17 years , Joseph died 20th Jan 1911 aged 37 years William died 31st Jan 1911 aged 30 years, Annie died 22nd April 1911 aged 28 years
***I'm wondering could William be another brother born in 1837 as David was born in 1835, Margaret in 1838, Eliza in 1840 and then Robert not for another 8 years in 1848...there could be potential for another couple of siblings there also.
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That's Hilarious,
You actually had your ancestors under your nose all along. . .
How great to have their headstone !
Tara
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I mentioned earlier that Mr Robinson didn't appear in Rallagh on the GV and that there was a John Robinson in a nearby townland called Gallony . . .
Well, that William that you have mentioned appears to be what I shall refer to as a Gallony Robinson.
I think this is a red herring . . .
Again, Mr Robinson is not buried with the family, again proving that the family moved to the Banagher parish sometime as after his death . . .
Tara
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https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Londonderry/Feeny/Gallony/1524769/
This is William Robinson for reference in 1901
Tara
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https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Londonderry/Feeny/Gallany/595900/
William Robinson in 1911 for reference
Tara
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Re More Siblings to Robert . . .
I would well imagine that there were, the problem is the time, late 1840's being the run up to the famine meant they possibly died in infancy . . .
Even if they lived and married, without a father's name and location we are back to square one . . .
Tara
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In my head Donemana Tyrone, where David lived and Feeny, Londonderry where Robert lived were a million miles apart (slight exaggeration ;D) but Google maps is showing them to be approximately 20 minute drive
Next step is to look for Donemana church records, possibly the church that David worked in !
Tara
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That's an excellent point regarding the church that David worked in !! That will be my next port of call