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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Essnell on Wednesday 05 November 25 07:37 GMT (UK)
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Hi Everyone,
I am on a DNA trail for an unknown Gt Grandfather.
I know who he had a child by and who that child was .
Now after much searching I have concluded that this person should be related to someone in the time frame of 1898 1903 approximately as the known child was born C 1922.
Now following that reasoning I have searched the NSW and VIC records for siblings of a couple showing in the DNA matches.
I get 6 children on the NSW search engine for this couple and the only from this family that i have is the only one whose certificate is available as a PDF. All their names are are listed ant the Rec Ref No - just this PDF is not. I don't' know if I can buy a full cert.
1.Any one know why the others are unavailable.
I have not found a death Cert for him either.
I am looking for Frederick Murray born 1903 Moama NSW, Australia
Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.
Essnell
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You can purchase certificates even if it doesn't say PDF available. Purchase a transcription, the same information will be provided at a lower cost.
From the NSW BDM website:
"You can buy a print or digital copy of a birth, death or marriage certificate. Certificates will be listed as either:
Readily available - this has already been created, and in most cases can be sent immediately by email.
Unavailable - this is available to order, but processing times will apply as the PDF version of the original recorded image will need to be created."
https://www.nsw.gov.au/family-and-relationships/family-history-search/search-guide
(see under "Hire a transcription agent")
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1.Any one know why the others are unavailable.
Yes, confusing isn't it. "Unavailable" just means nobody has ordered it yet, and therefore it is not available for immediate download. You just need to order the one you want. As Maddy suggests, a transcription agent can be faster and cheaper.
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I'm not quite sure from your post who the couple you have dna matches with are? Is it Frederick MURRAY's parents - William MURRAY and Lila ATKINSON? There seem to be more than 6 children born in NSW to this couple - 6 in Moama, 2 at Moulamein and 1 at Balranald.
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Yes that's them. Sometimes the records are in Victoria.
I will chase the other three in the morning. I am really interested in Frederick and I have found nothing about him anywhere..
Thanks Maddys52 Nd Neale1961
For such quick replies. Very helpful.
Essnell.
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Essnell again. The DNA isn't to them but toa DNA match person 2 Generations away to whom these are related.
If what I suspect is correct then they should be closer than what I can see so far. Essnell.
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Hi . No luck finding Frederick on either database [NSW and Vic].
There are on Ancestry two people with information on Frederick .
the marriage they have checks out to be as they say . the search does not show parents ; there are two references on Vic BMD.
1. has his name as Frank Frederick
2. has his name as Francis Frederick the date is 1926 at St Mary's Church, Lake Condah Aboriginal Mission, Portland, Vic. Aust. He is married to Dinah Margaret Arden.
ESSNELL
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Hi Essnell,
I don't know if I am the only one, but I am a bit confused by your post and like others, would be happy to help if possible.
Your great grandfather is unknown.
He had a child with a woman (you know about her).
The child is your grandfather born in 1922.You know about him.
You have a DNA match to the Murray family,
Frederick MURRAY may be the great grandfather you are seeking.
Is that right?
Sue
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Hi Sue an anyone else confused. me probably as well: to explain This is not Me specifically. I am doing the research and have been appointed as Collaborator to my Son-in-laws DNA. No-one wants to do the work and as I am retired I have the time and the accounts etc to use to do the research. [all available from my own searching for my GrGt Grandmother]
so S-i-l's Father is known but who his parents were we did not know. So that makes for unknown grandparents and great grandparents. Those are what I am looking for.
so there is S-i-l then his father with unknown parents , then following on from there, unknown gt grandparents. particularly on the paternal side. Initially I had no idea who the grandmother was either. That I was able to solve from DNA and various searches.
So from what I have been able to sort out on he paternal side through DNA and making many family trees etc I have reached a person of interest Frederick Murray. He may be the missing Grandfather. His parents would be the great grandparents. Those that maddys52 posted and asked about.
hopes this helps
Sorry if I have confused everyone.
extra: my post this morning 3:59am UK time i think ... anyway ..... from information re a marriage on two
Ancestry trees I found the entries for whom I think is him in the Vic BMD, The marriage has been recorded twice - once in the name of Frank Frederick Murray and again in the name of Francis Frederick Murray . same spouse for each. REf No 3807/1926
Before I go any further I need to check these two Ancestry person's trees.
Essnell
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For Neale, Thankyou for the helpful info on getting a cert. I tried it out and actually reached the cart. Full stop, the cost was $41. I reneged on that. will see if s-i-l wants to get it later himself.
Since then I have progress well as on the thread. Almost at the end of the trail and mystery person found.
Essnell.
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If you use a transcription agent (see my reply #1), you can get a transcription for around $20.
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Hi Maddys52, Thankyou. Yes I didn't see that option or at least how to access it.
I shall try again later....my internet on computes is acting up this morning and also last night. The Telstra one has gone AWOL and Starlink is slow. Frustrating.
Any how I will need this cert . I am about to try tracking his wife and daughter. I have seen the daughters husband 's name elsewhere.
I am so close to an answer. :) ;D
Essnell
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Deleted. Wrong information.
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Barbara Lyell MURRRAY b. 1927 married Wesley Bertram HABY,
There is a photo of him in connection with his WW2 service enlistment at the National Archives Australia site.
Sue
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Hi Sue, Thankyou for the photo. I have not got this far yet.
I am endeavouring to sort all the notes into orderly groupings. This last little bit has snowballed with info so all on A4 pages and loose.
My S-i-l gets back from Adelaide today, after visiting an Aunt who is 104 yrs old and broken her hip,/leg. It's so bad that they cann repair it around the previous replacement.
He will be very surprised by what i'found for him.
Cheers Essnell
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Hi maaddys52,
Finally found where to access the Transcription Service for the those records. I shall see what we need to do.
I am almost certain that this Frederick Murray is my Mystery man.
There three people in a small cluster from s-i-l's DNA who trace back to William Walter and Lila Llily Murray.
These 3 people follow back to another son of William Walter and Lila Lily Murray - Sidney John Murray.
I have a little more work to do on tis yet so will keep you posted.
Essnell
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Hi.
I see from you other thread you are still working diligently on the DNA aspect of your search
Records show the birth of Dinah Margaret ARDEN in 1907 (#14899.)
Her father was indigenous man James Thomas Winter ARDEN.
Her mother Christine Rachel nee LANCASTER.
Dinah Margaret ARDEN married Fred MURRAY, the subject of your post heading in 1926.(#3807)
Their daughter was Barbara Lyell MURRAY b 1927
BUT.... for reasons I don't know, she used the surname HARRISON at her marriage. Is this correct?
Barbara married Wesley Bertram HABY b. 1926. Photo posted above.
Have you DNA support/verification to this point?
One of the daughters of Wes and Barbara was Diana April HABY who died in 2022.
She can be seen on the Victorian Electoral Roll surnamed SMITH
Do I have this right?
Is the above information in line with your findings?
Sue
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Hi Sue, Thanks again, this is all so helpful.
Yes I am still digging through DNA connections. Ian pretty sure that Frederick Murray is my mystery man.
There are so many links from other parts of his extended family that point to this.
Now what I believe is that Frederick when 19 yrs old got with a 17 yr old called Mabel I know she had a c
Son in Footscray in 1922 and called him Frank last name Smith.
Frederick Murray apparently left her. She passed the child over to her elder brother and he and his wife reared him.
Little Frank is my S-i-l' Dad. He is deceased. Now the Arden connection come in through the name Haby it's one of the Matches but I can't remember where.
If I find that I will have a connection straight through. That would be good. I do have a connection to three others who are cousins. I am currently trying to get paper trails on this.
I am on the mobile so hope it is all okay. I will Pm you in the morning.
Essnell.
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Hi Sue, Thanks again, this is all so helpful.
Yes I am still digging through DNA connections. Ian pretty sure that Frederick Murray is my mystery man.
There are so many links from other parts of his extended family that point to this.
Now what I believe is that Frederick when 19 yrs old got with a 17 yr old called Mabel I know she had a c
Son in Footscray in 1922 and called him Frank last name Smith.
Frederick Murray apparently left her. She passed the child over to her elder brother and he and his wife reared him.
Little Frank is my S-i-l' Dad. He is deceased. Now the Arden connection come in through the name Haby it's one of the Matches but I can't remember where.
If I find that I will have a connection straight through. That would be good. I do have a connection to three others who are cousins. I am currently trying to get paper trails on this.
I am on the mobile so hope it is all okay. I will Pm you in the morning.
Essnell.
SMITH Frank
Mother Mabel Rose SMITH
Father -
FOOTSCRAY
31409/1922
Little Frank SMITH had father Frank Murray, you believe.
Frank MURRAY was also the father of child Barbara Lyel MURRAY (within his marriage to Dinah Margaret ARDEN )
Barbara Lyel MURRAY married Wesley Bertram HABY and their child was Diana April HABY.
Frank Murray therefore is the common connection between Little Frank Smith and Diana April HABY.
Correct? Is that where the HABY name in your findings comes in?
Sue
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Hi Sue. yes ! My page for Frederick has most of those bits of information.
Barbara Lyall Murray married Wesley in 1948 .
about the Harrison name. I think Frederick probably deserted Diana not long after they had the child. that's what he did with Mabel.
Diana married or at least partnered with James Harrison. i have just searched and his full name was James Richard Kennedy Harrison.
I believe i have a link or at least searched and found a tree belonging to Secombe.. Christina the daughter married Leslie Secomb.
still this is not a good /DNA Match till It conmes up on the list.
Essnell.
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James Richard HARRISON
Search here for the service record of James Richard HARRISON. Enlisted 1940. I would say His NOK is Dinah Margaret.
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/SearchScreens/AdvSearchAll.aspx
This item about an assault involving James Richard HARRISON. 1953 at Dimboola
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/72765494?searchTerm=%22james%20richard%20harrison%22
Sue
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Hi Sue, yes that would be him. He was living at Dimboola on Electoral rolls. I have had another victory tonight. I have been chasing a third person in the 7x7 cluster who are all connected to this part of the search. I got his family line a bit of luck there but it's another piece. Some of it was sad but also great. The gt gt gr. Parents survived the WW11 concentration camps..
Amazing. I have a bit n more on the Harrison's they had 5 female children.
Essnell. More later
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I'm not much with DNA working and configurations I'm afraid ;D
I don't know if you have this.
Tribute to Diana April nee HABY. AKA NIKKELSON and SMITH
https://www.thecourier.com.au/tributes-funerals/death-notices/466911/nikkelson-haby-diana-april-ballarat-vic/
Interred Ballarat.
Sue
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Hi Sue, Thank you for the attached info . No I don't have that Tribute.
These things are just so useful when working in such close related times.
Lovely photo of her.
Don't worry about the DNA side of it. It is what it is.
Essnell
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Sparrett,
Thank you Sue for that as previous post.
I had been searching again and found a Smith Family tree connected to Diana. That was somewhat helpful in following Diana's family. so
Siblings:
Bernadeen Haby-King,
Sister
Brother
These are the children from William Darrell Smith
William James Smith ---- I would say Jamie in the Tribute
Female Private
Mark Sonny Smith ---- Again in the Tribute
Female Private
Female Private
Spouse Private
Male Private
Spouse Nikkelson
Female Private
Female Private
No Spouse
Female Private.
This is two matching pieces of the search.
I have not had a chance to look further at this but will do :
Tree belongs to Rhiannon Smith
Nothing else exciting today
Essnell
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Hi Sparrett and Everyone,
Thank you all and Sue, I have a couple of questions.
Because I cannot find a death for Frederick in either NSW or Vic. where he was mostly seen and known. I am wondering where he went.
I have not checked all of Australia but that is possibly where he went.
However , after putting Frederick into the Ancestry search for family trees I came across one that said Frederick was in their tree. When I looked further there is one match in both places - William Brazill
Now William Brazill actually has common matches with Frederick, on S-i-l's DNA matches. No idea how as yet. however the Brazill family seem to come from USA. ........What if Frederick went there...???
Would anyone here know if this was possible for Frederick to do?
:-\ Essnell
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Essnell,
Hi, looks like you are making great progress in your search.
In answer to your question, I see no reason why not. It is only relatively recently that systems have been linked up enough to make changing your name more challenging. Fifty or so years ago it would have been much easier. There are lots of historical examples, and stories of people jumping ship.
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Hi David, Thank you. So a distinct possibility.
Where to next is the next conundrum.
E few hours ago I ended up on Facebook via a link re Frederick. Not much about him perse but a fantastic serial photo of where he could have been as a child. Yanga Station up along the Murrumbidgee River NSW Aust. His grand parents were there early on before 1900. It's absolutely huge.
On there I also found a link to a Museum and Heritage centre in the Town of Balranald. I have contacted them. Hope it's successful
It's like circles in circles this stuff.
Essnell
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Hi Everyone, I have finally received a reply from the Balranald Museum and Heritage Centre.
Other than explaining about all the already passed information collecting re what I had done, that I could now do ----Nothing of any value received.
Best offer was contact Balranald Cemetery.
Still no further on the quest for Frederick Murray's death after 1927.....
Essnell
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Hi Sparratt, Sue
I have gone back to the beginning again looking as the side lines and starting at Lila Lilly Murray. Frederick's Mother.
She was born 1881 Lila lily Atkinson and died 1919 about 38 yrs old. Now there are a number of trees that I have been looking through. bit off putting in parts and often hard to follow. most have conflicting information regarding Frederick.
Lila's Father was John Atkinson and her Mother was Harriet Harviston Brown (1862-1936) John's second wife.
John's first wife was Louisa Frost 1855 -1914 They had 12 children
John's third wife was Lucy Bros-Dick . born 17th April 1897 Echuca, Murray Yorta Yorta Nation,Victoria.
Last wife was Bessie Murray there are no details about her but I did see a photo.
This I found 24 hrs ago and I am so stressed I feel ill. So have not yet confirmed all of this with records.
Oddly most of their records are other's trees. Oherwise not much to verify what they say.
When it comes to Frederick there's the problem with 1903 and 1905 children.
More work yet. but this Atkinson line is interesting.
Essnell.
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Obviously you would need to purchase the certificates to find out if these marriages are all the same man:
1873 Aaron ATKINSON and Louisa FROST (Moama, NSW) 3032/1873
1879 John ATKINSON and Harriet BROWN (Victoria) 4725 / 1879
1879 Aaron ATKINSON and Lucy Brosy DICK (Victoria) 3187 / 1897
There are births registered at Moama with father Aaron ATKINSON and mother Louisa:
1888 Edwin
1891 Daisy C
1893 Lily
and with mother Lucy:
1898 James A
1899 Thomas
Aaron ATKINSON death at Moama in 1913 (12766/1913) mother - Kitty.
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you may also be interested in browsing this.
You will need to be tolerant of the descriptive language used.
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Erratic head counting over years in 1870’s to 1884 of indigenous people residing at Maloga Station
https://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-2863516350/view?sectionId=nla.obj-2865876749&searchTerm=%22harriet+h+atkinson++%22~5&partId=nla.obj-2863532372#page/n28/mode/1up
ATKINSON.....
I believe you will see Lila aged 4 in 1881
Johnny aged 29 in 1877
Harriet aged 22 in 1876.
Whether they are the right people I don't know.
Many ATKINSONS residing there.
Sue
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Johnny Atkinson noted here. 1879
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/101445144?searchTerm=%22johnny%20atkinson%22
Sue
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Hi Maddys52 and Sparratt,
you are both amazing !!! Thank you so very much for what you have sent through so quickly.
maaddys52 i shall enevour to get those certs asap. They are really needed.
It is very hot and humid here so I have hid away where it's been cooler under a fan. Night time is better to do this searching.
Sue the Trove document is absolutely fabulous. I do believe many of the Atkinson family are in those listings. I have had a quick search. I was under the impression that Lila was full blood but apparently not. The man she married was so. I will read the whole report once I get a print copy.
It is so good to learn about these individuals and their lives. I have another Mission document that is not related to this search an it's incredible.
I'll be quiet for a while working on these .. back when i have news.
Essnell.
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I'm sure you will note in your browsing of the old document of head counts on the station that Aaron ATKINSON also present.
Sue
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Hi Sparratt
Sue , Yes I did see that. interesting.. would you believe we have an Aaron.
I have been looking again everywhere.. and I saw a death for Francis Frederick Da da..... also connected to Diana Margaret Arden in Secombe tree. Can't see any connection further but date was 1939, Balranald.
again no source so just More hot air or wishful thinking or copying !!! And not on NSW BDM search.
It has occurred to me that he may have just wandered off for some unknown reason. I am going to see if Diana Margaret A left him for Harrison or just what . Obviously Harrison replaced him as the daughter married as Harrison .
Still working on the Atkinson lines too.
Essnell.
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Hi: found this about 5mins ago::
Name Francis Frederick Murray
Gender Male
Summary Francis Frederick Murray prosecuted Arthur Richard Weston for unlawful assault at Moama Court, where Weston was fined £5.
Residence May 7 1937
Moama, New South Wales, Australia
Article themes Crime And Legal Affairs, Local News
Newspaper The Riverine Herald
Publication May 8 1937
Echuca, Victoria, Australia
Text ...out at night than a mere a human pedestrian.. Unlawful Assault Charge At the Moama Court yesterday, before Mr A. B. Collins, P.M., Francis Frederick Murray proceeded against Arthur Richard Weston on a charge of unlawful assault. Weston was fined £ 5, with 18 /-costs, in...
View full newspaper page on OldNews.com (additional subscription may be required)""""
So in May 1937 he was still in Eucha.
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The news item in Trove.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/116210815?searchTerm=%22francis%20frederick%20murray%22
Weston was, I think, a petty criminal and a deserter from the forces in WW1.
Non-indigenous.
Sue
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Hard reading.
Sydney/Sidney John Murray. (proposed brother of Frederick MURRAY) in very tough times. 1930
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/131380924?searchTerm=%22sidney%20%20%20murray%20aborigine%22~8
Sue
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This news item about John ATKINSON divorcing his wife will interest you. 1907
The more I read the hazier it all becomes. :o
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/119945428?searchTerm=%22harriet%20atkinson%20aboriginal%22~12
Vic marriage
ATKINSON John
BROWN, Harriet
1879
4725/1879
EDIT to add.
This could be Frederick in 1932 round Balranald. It sounds as if he lived a couple of miles from Balranald
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/143820142?searchTerm=%22fred%20murray%20aboriginal%22~12
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The last sighting I can spot of the man Frederick MURRAY in his 1937 Electoral Roll listing in Balranald where he is a labourer.
His (proposed) brother Sydney is in the vicinity and others of the surname too.
Sue
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Hi Sparratt
yes Sue, It happened. I have learned quite a lot doing this research. These people were not committed to one person in a marriage. Both male and female had other wives and husbands. Children were born as and when. So often there appear to be cross numbers unless the various partners can be established.
After the missionaries arrived they were caught between two cultures. But even the new-commers were in instances caught up in this.
Some adopted both and some the old established way. It makes following any line extremely difficult.
Re the electoral rolls: 1926
got two females Murray: Alice Murray Cumeroogunga Moama.
Alice Margaret Murray Meninya St. Moama
Harry James Murray Cumeroogunga, Moama
Gladys Nichols Cumeroogunga, Moama
Herbert Howard Nicholls Cumeroogunga, Moama
1939: Murray, Francis Frederick Balranald, labourer
Murray, Sydney John, The Island, Balranald, Station Hand. [this is the person of the opossum story above]
Murray, William , Bottle Neck , Balranald, Labourer [would be their father William Walter]
Murray, Elizabeth Veronica, Shamrock Hotel, Balranald. School Teacher.
Still no death record in either name.
Essnell
Now I also found on My Heritage a story in the Rivereina Recorder, [ Balranald, Mouleamein ,NSW]
date 5th May 1926.
frederick Murray makes an application to the local council to have the road that ran diagonally through his farm closed. it was on the StockRoute between Balranald and Swan Hill. he proposed thet this could be exchanged for one on the South boundary of his property.
outcome reported next meeting. after inspection... it was approved.
Any way this is out Fredericlk known there as Fred Murray. even though on Elect rolls as Francis Frederick in1939
I have looked for a later marriage but even that seems to not have happened.
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Hi Everyone,
My dad was born 1910 and he enlisted in WW11 in1942. He was 31 or so.
Frederick Murray and Sydney John Murray would have been a few years older than my Dad, but wondering if they might also have enlisted.
Any ideas how to find out if.
I'm looking for a reason that Frederick disappears at 1939. John lived to 1972 in Balranald.
Essnell
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I had previously searched the ww2 records without finding either of them.
There is one Frederick Calvert Atkinson MURRAY which is alluring in the selection of names as you can see ;D !! Born 1895 I think
His father also was William. ::)
However. I cannot frame him as the right man.
Search here
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/SearchScreens/BasicSearch.aspx
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I looked at that WWI record too. That Frederick MURRAY died in 1966 aged 71, father William MURRAY and mother Maria MORGAN. :) It is a strange coincidence of names and place.
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Hi, I n the hope I might find a clue as to when Fred disappeared I have returned to Dianah Arden.
Specifically looking for her marriage ?? to James Harrison.
I cannot find one.
However this helps. Harrison joined the AIF in 1940, early in the year at Caufield. Named His next of kin as D Harrison. They had two girls one in 1938 and one in 1944.
So Fred is off the scene there before 1938. Ie 1937. Which is when his daughter was born.
Perhaps he just left after finding out about James. This s leaves him at a place near Balranald and on the route to Swan Hill.
I am trying to find out how to access info on the Balranald Aboriginal Burial Ground.
Essnell.
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Have you read this:
https://balranald.nsw.gov.au/wp-content/uploads/2024/06/Balranald-Shire-Heritage-Review-2013-Chapter-Five-Thematic-History.pdf
bitzar.
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I had previously searched the ww2 records without finding either of them.
There is one Frederick Calvert Atkinson MURRAY which is alluring in the selection of names as you can see ;D !! Born 1895 I think
His father also was William. ::)
However. I cannot frame him as the right man.
Search here
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/SearchScreens/BasicSearch.aspx
In an online tree, Frederick Calvert ATKINSON was his Aunt's (Father's sister, Ellen) husband.
bitzar.
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Hi Bitzar, Thank you for both your posts.
re the PDF. on Balranald Shire . firstly no I had not seen that. now have it as a copy on Computer and read almost all of it. it has Frederick's family recorded in it. At the end there are contacts and unfortunately the best person Besley Murray has died just a few years ago.
Now I have also used the NAA link - not following Frederic Calvert Atkinson but just the basic on Frederick Murray.
There is a document concerning Frederick Murray held in these archives.
It looks like Frederick's father William must have filed a request at a police station in 1926 . He has applied for a war pension as Frederick's Father. there are reams of paper files, mostly all from Police , Federal Police Immigration etc.
I can't find out what happened .. it's still not been examined for 'sensitivity' . I am about to make a request for this file and it''s contents.
Obviously William W. Murray was concerned.
what next? Frederick Calvert Atkinson Murray.......
Essnell
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Regarding your reply#45
There was not a marriage to James Richard HARRISON for Dinah nee ARDEN becuase she was legally married to Frederick MURRAY.
She appears on the electoral roll in Horsham using the surname MURRAY, not HARRISON and is buried at Horsham Cemetery under the name MURRAY. Her headstone lists 3 daughters
James HARRISON did not register to vote at Horsham and who knows whether he lived there or not, but his death is recorded as taking place at Horsham. I do not see his burial and he is not mentioned on the headstone.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/211586071/diana-margaret-murray.
Sue
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There is a document concerning Frederick Murray held in these archives.
It looks like Frederick's father William must have filed a request at a police station in 1926 . He has applied for a war pension as Frederick's Father. there are reams of paper files, mostly all from Police , Federal Police Immigration etc.
I can't find out what happened .. it's still not been examined for 'sensitivity' . I am about to make a request for this file and it''s contents.
Essnell
I am confused here.
Why would this file be about the Frederick Murray of your interest?
If William (Walter) MURRAY had enlisted in ww1, his next of Kin would likely be his wife Lila who died in 1919.
I don't see an enlistment record for him. Have you seen one we missed?
Frederick, born 1903, would be too young being only 16 at the end of ww1
So why would there be a pension application.?
I cant see where the connection is.
Sue
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Hi sparratt.
Sue, I really do not know. It just came up in a search for Frederick Murray.
Here is the first line
"""
Title
William Murray, father of Frederick Murray - War Pension claim ""
and the last line
""Date registered :28 Oct 1992""
the rest is all the rec nos etc of where it's held. Actually in Melbourne Archives.
I am thinking he is using Frederick as some kind of identifier. maybe ??:
No. I have not seen anything re William Walter in any army documents.
To me it's another reference of William and is son Frederick Murray.
any way its interesting at least.
Essnell
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Hi again Sue,
Just got thinking - I am not positive but I believe Lila Lily also had another partner other than Walter. That could have caused issues maybe. who knows.
Essnell.
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Hi Everyone.
At this point I am still not convinced that -----
Francis Frederick Murray is the same person as Frederick Murray. So I purchased the Digital Copy of the marriage for Diana Margaret Arden.
Francis and Diana were definitely married in 1926 at Lake Conda, St Marys Church.
the Certificate does not mention an Aboriginal Mission .
However I looked up Lake Conda, St Mary's Church on the internet . This was described as a mission church on an Aboriginal Mission reserve at Lake Conda, Victoria.
So this couple were at this mission run by the Church of England.
This reserve was once taken back by the Government but has since been returned to Indigenous ownership.
Now possibly my Frederick Murray, somewhere around Balraland and Swan Hill, had fathered a child called Frank and the girl inolved had this child in Footscray , Melbourne at a establishment there.
I have no idea if Frederick followed her, or even if he knew but , as Lake Conda is not all that far away from Melbourne it's possible he was at this mission . and changed his name!!! Now i am thinking that this might mot be the case.
BUT a number of related trees have all of this in a mixed up concoction of relationships.
Further: Frederick Murray is the only posssible person that fits DNA wise and by date and location to be Frank's father.
So I think it wise to put all 'Arden' links aside for now and concentrate on Frederick Murray born 1903.
Parents William Walter Murray and lila lily Murray [Atkinson] .
My s-i-l's DNA matches are quite difficult to sort and I need to go back there and look harder at various individuals.
Be back soon.
Essnell
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Hi Essnell,
Could you please tell us everything on the MC if you are willing to. Does the info relate to your man?
Also Lake Condah mission is in Far SW Victoria, a 4 hour drive from Melbourne on todays roads.
There are Murray's living in Heywood, a town with a strong connection to the mission.
bitzar.
EDIT: Dinah / Diana ARDEN's parents were at Lake Condah. 2 of their children were born there in the 1910's. Other children were registered at Purnim so possibly they were residing at Framlingham mission. A nephew of Dinah was buried at Lake Condah cemetery in 1991.
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I think you need to go back and look at Replies number #16 and #17 this thread.
Fred Murray,
Had a son named Frank with Mabel Rose (...?)
Frank is you son-in -law's father
Fred Murray
Had a child named Barbara Lyall Murray with Diana Margaret Arden.
She married Wesley Haby and had children.
Fred Murray was the son of William Murray and Lila Atkinson.
Have you not stated your son in law has DNA connections to the names HABY, ARDEN and MURRAY?
I see the only possible link is this particular Federick Murray.
Sue
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Hi Bitzar and Sparratt,
first: I am sorry about not knowing more about where these places are. I did realise that Lake Conda was in the South Western corner of Victoria but I had no real idea of how far that was from Melbourne.
I have been trying to work out just where I found the information re Francis Frederick and Frederick. My notes tell me that there is a family tree belonging to Secombe family and that is where I saw the link to Arden. The Secombe family are one of the DNA matches that I was following some time ago.
Now recently I have another match for a R. Smith. I have not completed looking at that. but it appears to tell the same story.
Most of the family line comes down from William Walter Murray and Lila lily Atkinson but also their son Sidney John Murray born 1900.
These below are his siblings:
Francis Frederick Murray 1903
Frederick Murray 1905
Mollie Murray 1907
Elizabeth 'Bertina Bessie" Murray 1908
Laura Murray 1913
Wiliam Murray 1917- 1922 age 5 yrs.
1/2 siblings
Alfrred Murray 1905
Lila Murray 1907 - 1907.
Now Sidney John Murray married Hilda Zenobia Stewart . It's from this couple's children that I have a direct line to DNA matches.
Re the marriage Cert; I have a screen shot of it. Nope not going to work from my computer.
So here is the basics.
Rec No122
Place: St Mary's Church Lake Conda 8 APR 1926
Parties: Francis Frederick Murray --------Bachelor------ hosngh Eucha
Dinah Margaret Arden -------- Spinster ----- Warnambool
Married by Banns According to the rites of the Church of England. They both signed
Dinah messing up her name and having to re write 'Dinah'
Witnessed by C M Foster and E W Rosenwarne [ it's scrawly so hard to read]
so from above ---- would this be the scenario.
Francis Frederick 1903 married Dinah Arden and Frederick 1905 was little Frank's father with Mabel Rose -- by 1921 he would have been 16+ yrs old. Mabel was 17 that age is on the Birth rec for Frank.
hope the above makes sense.
Essnell
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Hi Bitzar and Sparratt,
first: I am sorry about not knowing more about where these places are. I did realise that Lake Conda was in the South Western corner of Victoria but I had no real idea of how far that was from Melbourne.
I have been trying to work out just where I found the information re Francis Frederick and Frederick. My notes tell me that there is a family tree belonging to Secombe family and that is where I saw the link to Arden. The Secombe family are one of the DNA matches that I was following some time ago.
Now recently I have another match for a R. Smith. I have not completed looking at that. but it appears to tell the same story.
Most of the family line comes down from William Walter Murray and Lila lily Atkinson but also their son Sidney John Murray born 1900.
These below are his siblings:
Francis Frederick Murray 1903
Frederick Murray 1905
Mollie Murray 1907
Elizabeth 'Bertina Bessie" Murray 1908
Laura Murray 1913
Wiliam Murray 1917- 1922 age 5 yrs.
1/2 siblings
Alfrred Murray 1905
Lila Murray 1907 - 1907.
Now Sidney John Murray married Hilda Zenobia Stewart . It's from this couple's children that I have a direct line to DNA matches.
Re the marriage Cert; I have a screen shot of it. Nope not going to work from my computer.
So here is the basics.
Rec No122
Place: St Mary's Church Lake Conda 8 APR 1926
Parties: Francis Frederick Murray --------Bachelor------ hosngh Eucha
Dinah Margaret Arden -------- Spinster ----- Warnambool
Married by Banns According to the rites of the Church of England. They both signed
Dinah messing up her name and having to re write 'Dinah'
Witnessed by C M Foster and E W Rosenwarne [ it's scrawly so hard to read]
so from above ---- would this be the scenario.
Francis Frederick 1903 married Dinah Arden and Frederick 1905 was little Frank's father with Mabel Rose -- by 1921 he would have been 16+ yrs old. Mabel was 17 that age is on the Birth rec for Frank.
hope the above makes sense.
Essnell
Who does Francis Frederick state his parents to be on the MC?
bitzar.
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Hi Bitzar,
The marriage record does not contain that information it only has what I said in the last post. Nothing for either of the people who got married other than their names and marital status, and where born.
What I posted is all that is on the certificate - it's pretty basic.
This was at the Mission Church at Lake Conda. It appears to have been a church that was part of a more established one elsewhere. It was established in1867.
According to wikipedia the church was attached to Ballarat. Several people administered the Mission over the years. At times people were removed but then returned . Chequered history. Now owned by an indigenous group.
Essnell.
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Hi Essnell,
Also Lake Condah mission is in Far SW Victoria, a 4 hour drive from Melbourne on todays roads.
There are Murray's living in Heywood, a town with a strong connection to the mission.
bitzar.
EDIT: Dinah / Diana ARDEN's parents were at Lake Condah. 2 of their children were born there in the 1910's. Other children were registered at Purnim so possibly they were residing at Framlingham mission. A nephew of Dinah was buried at Lake Condah cemetery in 1991.
Mounted Constable ROSEWARNE commenced duties at Heywood, May 1925.
Witness to the marriage.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/75072181?searchTerm=%22constable%20%20Rosewarne%20%22
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Most of the family line comes down from William Walter Murray and Lila lily Atkinson but also their son Sidney John Murray born 1900.
These below are his siblings:
Francis Frederick Murray 1903
Frederick Murray 1905
Mollie Murray 1907
Elizabeth 'Bertina Bessie" Murray 1908
Laura Murray 1913
Wiliam Murray 1917- 1922 age 5 yrs.
1/2 siblings
Alfrred Murray 1905
Lila Murray 1907 - 1907.
Essnell
Your list of children to William Lila MURRAY has little in common with the registered births to the couple
Harriet I. 1898
Sydney John 1890
Frederick 1903
Presalla L. 1905
Lila 1907
Elizabeth 1908.
You can see the details using the online BMD registers
Sue
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Hi Sparrat, Thanks for your latest post.
just to maybe help;
I have previously been through the NSW BMD site looking for children of Walter William "Goonah" Murray and Lila
Lily Atkinson. This is what I found first .
6 children:
Harriet I MURRAY Reg No 32315/1898 William Lila Moama Unavailable
Sidney J MURRAY Reg No 23893/1900 William Lila Moama Readily Available
Frederick MURRAY Reg No 13762/1903 William Lila Moama Unavailable
Presalla L MURRAY Reg No 25162/ 1905 William Lila Moama Unavailable
Lila MURRAY Reg No 37304/ 1907 William Lila Moama Unavailable
Elizabeth MURRAY Reg No 37621/1908 William Lila Moama Unavailable
plus;
Ridley MURRAY Reg No 31714/1912 William Lila Moulamein Unavailable
Laura MURRAY Reg No 27041/1915 William Lila Moulamein Readily Available
William MURRRAY Reg No 33353/1917 william Lila Balranald Unavailable
Presalla 's name is also shown as " Mollie Priscilla Lavinia Murray" in places. and in others "Bessie Murray" I think Mollie and Bessie were Nicknames.
Elizabeth was also "Bessie".
Frederick 1905 is totally debatable and I think not our fellow.
That said , I have not got Francis in the William /Lila Murray family either. It's from that couple's son, Sidney John that there is a connection. I am retracing this as I work here . so ...
more when I find what's what .
Essnell
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A bit more
William Walter had more than 1 wife.
Catherine Rogers appears to have had two or three children with similar names to Lila's children
Alice Colger also had a number of children to William Walter Murray: 11 possibly. I just have a list, but no Fredrick.
dates range from 1889- 1937plus 3 after that. these need checking asap.
Like I have seen else where the men folk appear to have had several wives all at the same time, judging by the birth dates of their children.
Essnell.
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Well, I hope you are able to settle more clearly on the siblings list at some stage.
Because at present it just looks like a mix of actuals and maybes.
What names as children are listed as children on Lila's death certificate?
Who was the informant?
Sue
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Hi Sparratt Bitzar,
okay This is really getting at me - so much so that I am hardly able to concentrate.
So yes every time I have to repeat lists and every time I recheck things are changing.
The main issue is that this family repeatedly used the same names. repeatedly spelt those names differently.
sometimes adding another name some times using a nickname etc.
So I need to stop, take account of everything and rethink it all - once again.
Apart from that .. I have to distinguish between Frederick Murray 1903, Frederick Murray 1905 and Francis Frederick Murray 1903/5 All of whom appear in various places. Sometimes together and sometimes separately. and in different family settings.
Now apart from the above issue. William Walter Murray was born 1872 and died 1954 .
He, like most of the indigenous males, had several "wives" and each wife had a string of children, and these were mostly concurrent , but not always at the same settlement group.
William Walter Murray also had Alice Colger as a wife. I don't have a marriage record yet, but I shall soon look for it.
some time later: Marriage Date: 1920 Reg No: 9111/1920. So this was after Lila died.
As I said previously I have been looking at something that I have not expanded before now.
I have had a list of children that Alice Colger had with William Walter Murray. Just names and dates .
According to what is “out there” - Alice was born in 1902. and died in 1975.
She is supposed to have had these children:
Alice E Murray 1889 … I believe this is incorrect and her mother was maybe Kate Rogers.
Annie Murray 1923 -2002
Albert Murray 1923 - ???? More on Albert below.
Stanley W Murray 1926 - ????
Alice Edith Lawson Edith Murray 1928 -????
Daisy Murray 1933 -1988
Mary Patricia [Priscilla] Murray 1937- 2006
Walter Murray ???? - 1985
Burt Murray ????? could be Albert.
Edward Murray date rules him out [1903] so who were his parents?
Reginald Murray 1929 - ????
Note: Not too sure about the last two.
Alice also had other spouses
** Emmanuel Austin Cooper
Cooper children
Lorraine Alice Cooper 1947- 1995
Emanuel Albert Cooper 1948-1991
Graham Austin Cooper 1956 – 1991
Kay Patricia Cooper 1958-1959
Last Spouse
Jimmy “Yorky” Smith
Daughter .. no details.
So looking through the list, I got as far as Albert Murray
He is supposed to have married Beatrice Kirby.
His father is William Walter Murray, Tribal name ‘Goonah’. [ This is the same person as Lila’s husband] 1872-1954
His mother Alice Colger born 1902 Island Aboriginal Settlement, Balranald, Murrumbidgee, Mutthi Mutthi Nation, South-West NSW, Aust.
She died 29-12-1975 Mooroopna, Goulburn, Bangrang Nation, Victoria.Aust.
[I have her parents if you need them. ]
Now Beatrice Kirby : 1931-1985 see below
Parents are : Arthur F.S. Kirby and Laura Murray 1915
Laura is the daughter of William Walter Murray and LiLa Lily Atkinson.
[NSW Reg No: 27041/1915 This is Moulamein but Specifically ….
Speewa Crossing NSW ]
Laura and Arthur married in 1934. Reg No: 17888/1934.
They have two children. Beatrice Kirby
Hartly Rudolph Kirby 1936 – 1973
Death Rec for Hartley: VIC. Reg No: 28740/ 1973 age 36 yrs place Fitzroy Victoria.
What is most interesting here is the marriage of Laura Murray to Arthur Kirby.
This is a link directly back to Walter and Lila Murray.
Now add to that : Beatrice Kirby married
Albert Murray son of Walter W Murray and Alice Colger in 1941
Reg No: 12836/1941.
This is a link directly back to Walter and Alice Murray.
I have not gone past this.
But these inter line marriages skew the DNA.
another connection seems to be looming on the female side there is a Wise family and on this same line a Moore family - both could be connected to the above.
I now need to re read some of this thread .
Thanks for reading.
Essnell.
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Hi , Anyone know how to search for pupis at the Swan hill state school between 1926 to about 1935.
thanks for any ideas.
Essnell.
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Hi again everyone,
above post is related to wondering if Frank smith attender the Swan hill State school if there was one from 1922 or so onwards.
also i am checking the list aboe fro Colger children on both Vic anad Nsw websiteds jusst to be ssure of the facts above.
Essnell.
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Love the added Xmas hats. E
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My suggestion is you get death certificates of the female partners of William Walter.MURRAY.
At present you seem to be relying on the trees and stories of other researchers which, while very relevant and helpful, seem not supported by valid records.
Have you got Lilah's death certificate? or have you sighted it?
The informant if very familiar with the deceased will have been asked to list all children and marriages.
As Alice COLGAR was legally married to William Walter MURRAY, she could not have legally remarried till after his death and I do not see a remarriage to either COOPER or SMITH as you have mentioned.
Who has provided her death date?
Where is the death certificate which, once again, would provide a list of chn if known.
I do understand of course that in indigenous communities civil registrations are often absent or information within them sketchy, but where available would at least provide another angle on things.
Sue
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Hi Sparratt,
Sue if I could go back in time I think I might just ......... I am so frustrated with this lot.
Iow I am taking trees as a springboad and I know that there are big issues there. So I have spent the last 8 or so hours on the relevant government indexes. I have some sanity from there but not a lot.
They are almost as irregular as anything else at this point. it
EG. I have been looking for Annie Murray born c 1923.
Alice E Murray: I have found nothing on either of the government search indexes but I did find when I searched her on Ancestry a citation for her birth from the Australian Birth Index:
Here is what it said: Date:1889 NSW.
Registration year: 1889
Place Paddington,
Parents: William and Alice
Reg No: 33482.
So I looked up that reg no. It was for a totally different person. I also found her death that same year, in Sydney, Mother Alice Ref No 1627.
So I am removing her from the list.
However: This info appeared later: William Walter Murray’s father was William Murray no dates etc.. but he was married? To Catherine “Kate” Rogers.
Catherine [Kate] was born c1854 and died 1890 aged 36 yrs in Deniliquin, NSW. The child from 1889-1889 was, I believe, hers . I will try to get her death Cert to confirm this.
Their son in 1872 was William Walter Murray.
William Walter Murray, Tribal name ‘Goonah’ is the same person as Lila’s husband 1872-1954
William’s second wife after Lila Died in 1919 is Alice Colger born 1902 Island Aboriginal Settlement, Balranald, Murrumbidgee, Mutthi Mutthi Nation, South-West NSW, Aust.
She died 29-12-1975 Mooroopna, Goulburn, Bangrang Nation, Victoria. Aust.
The following are their children
** Albert Herbert Murray
Info so far: Birth date: 1921 Reg No: 21070/1921.
Place: Balranald, NSW.
Parents: William Murray and Alice Colger
Marriage: Date: 1942
Ref Reg No: 13490/1942
Groom: MURRAY, HERBERT
Bride: KELLY, SARAH
Place: HILLSTON…..it’s in the Riverina District on the Lachlan River.
Spouse: Sarah Campbell Kelly
This couple have 5 children: 3 male and 2 female all private.
Death:
Name
Albert Herbert Murray
Death Registration Date
1985
Death Registration
Place Victoria, Australia
Father William Murray
Mother Colger
Reference Number 12751
*** Bert Murray
Info so far:
Birth Date: 1922
Place: Balranald, NSW.
Marriage :
Date: 1941
Place Balranald, NSW.
Spouse: Beatrice Kirby
About Beatrice Kirby : 1931-1985
Parents are : Arthur F.S. Kirby and Laura Murray 1915
Laura is the daughter of William Walter Murray and LiLa Lily Atkinson.
[NSW Reg No: 27041/1915 This is Moulamein but Specifically ….
Speewa Crossing NSW ]
Laura and Arthur married in 1934. Reg No: 17888/1934.
They have two children. Beatrice Kirby 1931-1985
Hartly Rudolph Kirby 1936 – 1973
Death Rec for Hartley: VIC. Reg No: 28740/ 1973 age 36 yrs
Place: Fitzroy Victoria.
What is most interesting here is the marriage of Laura Murray to Arthur Kirby.
This is a link directly back to Walter and Lila Murray.
Did Beatrice and Bert Murray have children: I have not looked yet.
**** Stanley Walter Murray
Info so far: Birth: C 1923
Death: 1972 Place: Balranald, NSW.
Vic Reg Ref No: 46572/1972
Parents :William and Alice
***** Alice Edith aka Edith Murray.
Info so far: Birth: 1928 Balranald, NSW.
Death: Australian Death Index: 1972 Reg No:1334/1972 Dareton, Sydney NSW.
Parents: William and Alice.
Marriage: Marriage Index Record: Date 1944 Place: Wentworth Ref Rec No: 13217/1944
Spouse: “Jack” John Thomas Lawson 1920-1975.
They have 10 children. 8 female and 2male.
****** Daisy Murray
Info so far: Birth: 1933
Place: Leeton, NSW.
Death: 22nd June 1988, Balranald, NSW.
******* Mary Patricia Murray
Info so far: Birth: ????
Death: C 2006
******* Edward William Murray
info so far: Birth date: 1930
Death Date: 1977
Marriage: 1948
Marriages Search Results Edward William Murray
And Nancy Mary Anne Kirby
PDF availabilty ……………………….Unavailable
Registration Number…………………...13536/1948
Groom's Family Name…………………...MURRAY
Groom's Given Name(s)………………….EDWARD WILLIAM
Bride's Family Name(s)………………….KIRBY
Bride's Given Name(s) …………………NANCY MARY ANNE
District ………………………………...BALRANALD
******** Reginald Murray 1929
I still have this one to do but thought you might like to see all the above.
Hope this sorts this family unit out .
Thanks for reading it's a bit long ...sorry.
Essnell
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Hi
Iow I am taking trees as a springboad and I know that there are big issues there. So I have spent the last 8 or so hours on the relevant government indexes. I have some sanity from there but not a lot.
Essnell
You need more than indexes.
Lilah died 1919.
You should get a transcription of the full certificate through a transcription agent.
Reasons for this purchase I have described above.
It is clear you have not ever seen it. If her children includes 3 boys with the very similar names, they may be listed.
From Reply #64
"According to what is “out there” - Alice was born in 1902. and died in 1975".
Who says this? Contact them and ask for their source.
Sue
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Hi Sparrat,
Sue: I am not sure who previously purchased Lila's death certificate but it was readily available. I got that emailed as a pdf . It still cost $41. There are 9 living children plus 2 married females. BUT the informant is "no relation". okay that's it for tonight. Will compare this list with what I have here.
Essnell.
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As I suggested above, there is no need to pay that amount of money for a NSW certificate.
Order from a transcription agent. There are 3 I know of all of whom are reliable.
Here is the link to one.
https://nswtranscriptions.com.au/pages/our_services/bdm/nsw_bdm.php
The cost will be $20 or less. There will be a short wait.
It is disappointing that the informant on Lila's certificate was not a relation or a close associate.
However, the list may clarify the issue of the 3 men of similar name.
Sue
Adding
It would be helpful for those trying to assist you if you would transcribe word for word from the DC of LILA. Entirely.
OR even more useful, share an image of the document for us to see.
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Here is the other death certificate indexed.
This will be a direct download from https://www.bdm.vic.gov.au/search-your-family-history#4-buy-the-record
Hopefully some children will be listed.
Alice COOPER
Mother Elizabeth JACKSON
Father Albert COLGER
Bornn Balranald New South Wales
Died Mooroopna
Aged 46
Year 1977
5502/1977
Sue
Cemetery record
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/279440953/alice-cooper
Oh No.. ::)
This woman cannot be a partner of MURRAY. Age makes it not possible.
According to this record Alice was born 1931.
So where is the error?
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This is the assumed marriage.
Alice COLGER
Marriage Date 1920
At Balranald, New South Wales
Registration Date 1920
William MURRAY
Registration Number 9111
Marriage to COOPER in Victoria
COLGER Alice
COOPER, Emanuel
16304/1946
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Ok,.
So Ada Elizabeth nee McCREEDIE (variations) married Albert COOMBS.
there were children.
He died 1901 and Ada re-partnered with Albert COLGER.
There were children including Albert C CLOLGER. 36695/1906.
Albert C COLGER married in 1927 to Ada E JACKSON.at Balranald #9803
Their child was Probably Alice COLGER
So this Alice COLGER who married Emanuel COOPER in Not the one who married William MURRAY.
So you can take that line out of your folder.
Sue