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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: AnCreag on Saturday 01 November 25 12:11 GMT (UK)
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Hi, I've hit (another) stumbling block and am looking for a bit of advice as to where to go next.
I have a GGG Grandfather Roderick MacKenzie who marries Margaret Young in Falkirk 1843. They appear to have emigrated to the USA as their two sons Roderick and James are listed in later census as being born there. Margaret however has returned to Scotland (Leith) by the time of the 1851 census and married to an Alexander MacKenzie (originally from Gairloch/ no marriage cert that I can find).
I'm trying to find out what happened to Roderick, I can't find out anything definitive about him. Family story has him coming from the Heights (outside Dingwall) but the 1843 marriage cert only states they were both of the parish of Falkirk. Can't find any reference to them on passenger lists to the USA and don't know where to look for American records.
Thanks
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Hello
I've not got the US side but what about the nephew with Margaret on the 1851 census?
John McKenzie born 1843 Wick.
His baptism seems to be
John 22.8.1842 Wick s of John Mackenzie and Isabella Phimster.
From the census we know John came from Gairloch born c 1805
John MacKenzie 21.8.1804 s of Murdo and Katherine Mckenzie nee Mackenzie tenant Sand
brother Roderick 1.2.1811 of Northandale tenant
Sister Anne 19.1.1817 2nd Coast.
I may be totally off but Roderick wouldn't be outrageously old when he married in 1842.
Just in case it helps
There is a marriage 3 Feb 1845 at Dingwall Alex McKenzie and Margaret McKenzie .
A very tight squeeze.
Ciderdrinker
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Oh, thanks ciderdrinker, it all helps! I came across John's name on the 1861 census but thought the entry said he was born Buckhaven, looking back on it now it looks like Buckhaven, Wick, I'll attach the original shortly.
Now my Roderick is consistently referred to as carpenter/ joiner on marriage/ death certs of his children so I wouldn't expect to find him as a tenant, presumably in the 1841 census? I'll delve further into it though.
Think the date for the 1845 Alex and Margaret wedding is too tight as Roderick's son Roderick appears to have been born in the USA in 1846. There are no official docs though so you never know!!
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1861 census
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Oh, thanks ciderdrinker, it all helps! I came across John's name on the 1861 census but thought the entry said he was born Buckhaven, looking back on it now it looks like Buckhaven, Wick, I'll attach the original shortly.
Now my Roderick is consistently referred to as carpenter/ joiner on marriage/ death certs of his children so I wouldn't expect to find him as a tenant, presumably in the 1841 census? I'll delve further into it though.
Think the date for the 1845 Alex and Margaret wedding is too tight as Roderick's son Roderick appears to have been born in the USA in 1846. There are no official docs though so you never know!!
There is no Buckhaven in Wick or even in Caithness. Buckhaven is in Fife. However, there is a Broadhaven in Wick. According to the Gazetteer for Scotland it was a hamlet that now forms the eastern part of Wick. It was originally known as Boathaven. Quite possibly the census enumerator heard Boathaven but he already knew of the place called Buckhaven and so recorded the stated place of birth as Buckhaven.
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I don't suppose that Alexander in 1851 could be an enumerator's error for Roderick? Have you checked the original of the census to see if it's a transcriber's error?
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In that 1861 census are two sons, Alexander and John, aged 5 and 3, born Leith.
See screenshot, and note that Alexander was born in 1855. Therefore his birth certificate will tell you not only when and where he was born, but also when and where his parents were born and when and where they were married.
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Posting 1851 census for the record (see below)
From census - Alexander McKenzie born Gairloch (Ross) abt 1821
There is a death in Leith South in 1860 for an Alexander McKenzie – no age or MMN recorded in SP index.
FamilySearch gives his death date as 8 March 1860, his birth around 1821, and name of father as John McKenzie. (So this might seem a match for the man in the 1851 census)
One wonders if Alex McKenzie was related to Roderic McKenzie - a brother? Or cousin?
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The 1855 birth of the un-nammed female (Isabella) might be the most useful record to obtain.
BIRTH
Margaret McKenzie born abt 1852 (didn’t find baptism)
DEATH
Margaret McKenzie died 14 Sept 1856 (age 4), South Leith, Midlothian
Parents - Alexander McKenzie, Margaret Young McKenzie
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BIRTH
Un-nammed female born 20 Feb 1855, Leith, Midlothian
Parents – Margaret Young and Alexander McKenzie
DEATH
Isabella McKenzie died 12 Jun 1856 (age 1) North Leith, Midlothian
Mother - Margaret Young McKenzie. Husband Alex McKenzie
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BIRTH
Alexander McKenzie born 17 September 1856 South Leith, Midlothian
Parents - Alexander McKenzie, Margaret Young McKenzie
DEATH
Alexander McKenzie died 20 Aug 1862 South Leith, Midlothian
Parents - Alexander McKenzie, Margaret Young McKenzie
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BIRTH
John McKenzie born 12 Jun 1858 South Leith, Midlothian
Parents - Alexander McKenzie, Margaret Young McKenzie
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A possible for Roderick McKenzie in 1841 census Falkirk
Working as a “wright”, also used to refer to a worker of wood
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/59057843e9379091b14b9486/roderic-mckenzie-1841-stirlingshire-falkirk-1816-?locale=en
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I assume you have the 1841 census for Margaret Young in Laurieston, Falkirk
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/59057896e9379091b14bc337/margaret-young-1841-stirlingshire-falkirk-1820-?locale=en
Margaret baptised 28 Nov. 1819 Falkirk, the daughter of James Young and Agnes Lawrie (married in 1819)
The Young family is still at the same address in the 1851 census.
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/590580ebe9379091b1515460/james-young-1851-stirlingshire-falkirk-1791-?locale=en
Death certificate for Margaret (widow)
19 October 1864 Leith South
Spouse Alexander McKenzie (blacksmith),
Father James Young (mason)
Informant - James McKenzie
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Married 1842 Falkirk > son born abt 1844 America > son born 1846 America > back in Scotland for 1851 census.
That is a rather quick turn around. Maybe they didn’t emigrate. Maybe Roderick had employment as a ship’s carpenter, and the children were born onboard, wherever the ship was. Might not have been America, but an American colony. ??? Cannot find anything in America.
Later census gives James McKenzie born in New York and also in Canada.
ADDED —-
From newspaper obit for Roderick MacKenzie junior who died in 1915
“He was born in Canada in 1847, where his father (a carting contractor in Ross-shire) had emigrated shortly before his son was born”. Who knows how accurate that report is?
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There is this burial in Canada. I don’t know any more about this Roderick McKenzie, but dates would align.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/141990407/roderick-mckenzie
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There is no Buckhaven in Wick or even in Caithness. Buckhaven is in Fife. However, there is a Broadhaven in Wick. According to the Gazetteer for Scotland it was a hamlet that now forms the eastern part of Wick. It was originally known as Boathaven. Quite possibly the census enumerator heard Boathaven but he already knew of the place called Buckhaven and so recorded the stated place of birth as Buckhaven.
Thanks eilthireach, that likely clears up one loose end!
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In that 1861 census are two sons, Alexander and John, aged 5 and 3, born Leith.
See screenshot, and note that Alexander was born in 1855. Therefore his birth certificate will tell you not only when and where he was born, but also when and where his parents were born and when and where they were married.
Ah, of course, sometimes you can't see the wood for the tree! Thanks for the tip
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Married 1842 Falkirk > son born abt 1844 America > son born 1846 America > back in Scotland for 1851 census.
That is a rather quick turn around. Maybe they didn’t emigrate. Maybe Roderick had employment as a ship’s carpenter, and the children were born onboard, wherever the ship was. Might not have been America, but an American colony. ??? Cannot find anything in America.
Aye, it's all seems rather strange, and I can't rule out the other possibility you raised that Alex and Roderick could have been related. Hopefully some further research will maybe shed some light on that.
I'd found the 1841 census entry for Roderick as a wright, and while it seems the most likely candidate there's nothing concrete I've found yet to confirm it.
ADDED —-
From newspaper obit for Roderick MacKenzie junior who died in 1915
“He was born in Canada in 1847, where his father (a carting contractor in Ross-shire) had emigrated shortly before his son was born”. Who knows how accurate that report is?
This is interesting, I don't think I've come across this one before. Do you remember what paper it was from?
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See screenshot, and note that Alexander was born in 1855.
I got that wrong. It wasn't Alexander who was born in 1855, it was his older (unnamed) sister. The rest of it stands.
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I got that wrong. It wasn't Alexander who was born in 1855, it was his older (unnamed) sister. The rest of it stands.
Almost! Date and place of parents marriage wasn't added to the Scottish birth certificates until 1860/1 and Alexander snr seems to have died prior to the 1861 census
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See link to 1855 births. A unique year.
https://www.scottishindexes.com/learningcivil.aspx#q2
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See link to 1855 births. A unique year.
https://www.scottishindexes.com/learningcivil.aspx#q2
Ah, I jumped the gun a bit!
OK, so this doesn't necessarily help. In the birth entry for the 1855 unnamed child (Isabella) Alexander and Margaret's wedding place/ date is given as Falkirk 1842, which was Roderick and Margaret's wedding.
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Very grateful for all the help being dished out here btw, all greatly appreciated
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Hmmm.
It almost sounds as if Roderick and Alexander are one and the same.
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Hmmm.
It almost sounds as if Roderick and Alexander are one and the same.
In the 1851 census i think the 2 oldest sons who later on are listed as born in the USA (or canada) were both listed as born in Stirlingshire. I did think that maybe something had happened in America and maybe a few details were changed so as to keep a low profile back home. There are references in some certificates to Margaret being a widow of (Rod) MacKenzie though and both the older boys marriage certs etc list Roderick and not Alexander as the father.
The answer is out there... somewhere.
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It almost sounds as if Roderick and Alexander are one and the same.
All very curious...........
Some questions –
1842 marriage record. Is there any information about Roderick McKenzie? His residence? His occupation?
1855 birth record. What are ALL the details given about Alexander McKenzie? Age, occupation, place of birth, etc.
Who was the informant for this record?
Do you have any birth records for the other children? What information about the father?
Do you have Alexander McKenzie’s death certificate? Please supply information.
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2 newspaper snips from obits for the son Roderick (died 1915 in Dingwall), which give some info about his father.
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Dochcarty barely qualifies as a 'district'. It's a handful of farms and crofts just north-west of Dingwall.
See https://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NH5261
and https://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NH5360
From the point of view of tracing him/them, Dochcarty is in the parish of Dingwall, county of Ross and Cromarty.
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Some questions –
1842 marriage record. Is there any information about Roderick McKenzie? His residence? His occupation?
Not much I'm afraid!
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1855 birth record. What are ALL the details given about Alexander McKenzie? Age, occupation, place of birth, etc.
Who was the informant for this record?
33, blacksmith, ross-shire. Informant was Margaret, his wife
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Do you have any birth records for the other children? What information about the father?
Do you have Alexander McKenzie’s death certificate? Please supply information.
I don't have birth certificates for the elder 2 (Roderick's) sons, James and Roderick
I do have for Alexander's children Isabella, 1855 (prev post) and Alexander in 1856, which adds nothing new, but not for Margaret 1852 or John, 1858. The 1855 birth certificate also mentions 2 dead sons (at least I think that's what i says! )which adds new possibilities.
I have the wrong Alexander MacKenzie's death certificate and no credits left in SP!!!! It's Roderick that my line lies through so I haven't focused on this line yet, but it's rather intriguing. ALexander is either listed as coming from Ross-shire or, more specifically Gairloch. The nephew John MacKenzie living with them in the 1861 census is son of John MacKenzie of Gairloch but long since married to Isabella Phimster in Wick. John snr then is possibly/ presumably brother of Alexander (but possibly Roderick).
John's death certificate gives his parents as John MacKenzie and Margaret MacKenzie of Gairloch. There are a few possibilities in Gairloch around that time which I'll need to delve into
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2 newspaper snips from obits for the son Roderick (died 1915 in Dingwall), which give some info about his father.
That's really interesting thanks Neale. That's the first thing I've seen that actually mentions what happened, or his father, who now appears to be a well known Ross-shire carting contractor? Roderick jnr's death certificate says carpenter!
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That birth certificate says that Alexander was aged 33, and born in Boleskine.
Boleskine is on the east shore of Loch Ness, in the county of Inverness, not Ross and Cromarty.
There is a baptism of Alexander Mackenzie, son of Colin Mackenzie and Anne Mackenzie, on 30 January 1822 in Boleskine, who would fit. However you'd need to find evidence to prove that he's the right one, as there could be another one whose baptism record hasn't survived.
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Looking at the Nephew, John McKenzie from 1861 census
John McKenzie born in Wick abt 1843 is the son of John McKenzie (snr) and Isabella Phimster
John McKenzie (snr) born abt 1804 Gairloch
Married Isabella in Wick Caithness in 1840
1841 census
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/59028826e9379091b1537f06/isabella-mckenzie-1841-caithness-wick-1816-?locale=en
1851 census
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/590288c6e9379091b155fc3d/george-mackenzie-1851-caithness-wick-1850-?locale=en
1861 census
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a142d77f4040b9d6e19386e/george-mckenzie-1861-caithness-wick-1851-?locale=en
1871 census
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/59028a36e9379091b15bb494/james-p-mckenzie-1871-caithness-wick-1861-?locale=en
1881 census
https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/image-viewer/census_lds/census_lds-fbc964ab-f5e6-4c0e-a343-19beab2b5e33?search_token=426470343690bcda890eaa&row=row_9&sort=&order=&from_page=
John MacKenzie death in Wick in 1886, age 83. Mmn MacKenzie
Probable Bapt 05/05/1805 Gairloch. John, son of John McKenzie and Margaret McKenzie
I was thinking this was probably the death of Alexander McKenzie, 2nd husband to Marg Young
8 March 1860 -
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6TL2-9HXF?lang=en
There are 2 couples John and Margaret McKenzie having children (with similar names) in Gairloch
However a baptism for Alexander McKenzie with those parents in 1815
Also 2 Rodericks with those parents in 1806 and in 1818
One suspects they may all be related somehow.
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When your Roderick and wife went off to Canada, it is quite possible that they were following relatives who had emigrated before them. That was often the way, with one family emigrating first, and others following later.
See Screenshot below of a bit of information about a Kenneth McKenzie.
Much more detailed information here regarding McKenzie families from Gairloch and Settlement in Canada
https://electriccanadian.com/history/pei/GairlochandCanadianMaritimes.pdf
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Some general comments
I think it is safe to assume that Roderick and Margaret went off to Canada which is where the 2 boys were born (not U S of America).
I’m not convinced about Alexander being born in Boleskine. That disagrees with the census. I wonder if Margaret knew where he came from?
Regarding Roderick senior being described as a carpenter on his son’s death cert. Not a very reliable source, especially since Roderick junior hardly knew his father. There is no occupation given for his father when Roderick junior married. When James married in 1866, how does he describe his father Roderick’s occupation?
Time Line
Roderick and Margaret married March 1842 Falkirk
1842-44 – Emigration (? The ship “John Kerr” left Greenock in July 1842 with emigrants from Gairloch to Canada)
1845 - James born in Canada
1847 - Roderick junior born in Canada
1842-1852 - 2 sons born and both died
1847-1850 Roderick Senior died
1847-1851 - Margaret and 2 sons return to Scotland
1851 census - Margaret and Alexander now “married”
1852 - Margaret born Midlothian
1855 - Isabella born Midlothian
1856 - Alexander born Midlothian
1862 - John born Midlothian
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I’m not convinced about Alexander being born in Boleskine.
Neither am I, now. Looking at it again, it could be Ross-shire.
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I’m not convinced about Alexander being born in Boleskine.
Neither am I, now. Looking at it again, it could be Ross-shire.
Yes, I think so too. :)
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I was thinking this was probably the death of Alexander McKenzie, 2nd husband to Marg Young
8 March 1860 -
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6TL2-9HXF?lang=en
This is actually the one I have, it's a bit scant of details, eg it says he's married but not who to. Also, it lists his profession as "spirit merchant". He's listed as a blacksmith in Margarets death certificate in 1864 and in other documents prior to this so I'd decided this was the wrong one.
However... going back and looking at it again I notice that the informant is a John MacKenzie, nephew. And the address is Sheeps(Ships?)head Wynd, Leith which is also where we find Margaret and family in the 1861 census, so it appears it is the right Alexander after all.
Unfortunately the only parents details given are John MacKenzie, farmer
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Some general comments
Regarding Roderick senior being described as a carpenter on his son’s death cert. Not a very reliable source, especially since Roderick junior hardly knew his father. There is no occupation given for his father when Roderick junior married. When James married in 1866, how does he describe his father Roderick’s occupation?
That is a good question, I can't quite make it out!
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His death certificate in 1911 says joiner though (I think!)
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That is a good question, I can't quite make it out!
Millwright/deceased?
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I’m not convinced about Alexander being born in Boleskine.
Neither am I, now. Looking at it again, it could be Ross-shire.
Yes, I think so too. :)
It's hard to say definitively, but everything else seems to point towards a Ross-shire origin
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I am revisiting this 1841 census, because I think it is correct for Roderick McKenzie senior.
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/59057843e9379091b14b9486/roderic-mckenzie-1841-stirlingshire-falkirk-1816-?locale=en
• The census was taken on 6 June 1841, and Roderick and Margaret married 8 months later in Falkirk on 28 March 1842.
• Roderick is recorded as a wright, which matches his occupation as millwright, carpenter and joiner recorded in other sources.
• Roderick is recorded as born "out of county", and we know he was born in Ross-shire.
• Margaret’s father was a mason journeyman in 1841 Falkirk, and may have also been employed at the same place Roderick was working and residing.
That leads to the question – were the Dougald McKenzie (15) and James McKenzie (15), working as labourers in the same place as Roderick, his younger brothers? Did they also go to Canada at the same time?