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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Shropshire => Topic started by: NorthernGeezer on Friday 31 October 25 13:26 GMT (UK)
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I have a 3 x great grandfather, Thomas Minshall, born 1822 in Whixhall, Shropshire, married Mary Lewis in 1844 and according to the 1851 census, it gives her birth around 1817 in Ruthin Denbighshire............so far so good.
The marriage certificate names her father as Thomas Lewis, a labourer, who you would assume was born in Denbighshire also.......and here's where I'm stuck.
Both Ancestry and FindMyPast keep throwing up loads of hints of a Thomas Lewis born in Dawley Magna Shropshire, and 1 hint for a guy in Llanbedr-dyffryn-clwyd, Denbighshire, Wales on Marys baptism record.
So, Shropshire or Wales??.................any suggestions greatly appreciated.
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A possible.
Llanbedr Dyffryn Clwyd is a small village and community in Denbighshire in Wales, approximately 2 miles north-east of the town of Ruthin on the main A494 road towards Chester. There are several places called Llanbedr in Wales, as the word literally translates to 'church of St. Peter' in English.
1851 census born Ruthin c1817 Ruthin
1861 census born c1817 Rything
1871 census born c1818 Chirk
1881 census born c1817 NK
Name Mary Lewis
Gender Female
Baptism Date 02 Aug 1818
Baptism Place Llanbedr-Dyffryn-Clwyd,Denbigh,Wales
Father
Thomas Lewis
Mother
Mary
Image of baptism available on FindMyPast
SS
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I'm pretty sure that's the one too Softly, my next problem is the parents Thomas and Mary so again, I'm pretty sure the Thomas Lewis from Dawley Magna is NOT her father.
Her marriage to Thomas Minshall is confusing though, how has she got from the backwaters of Wales, Ruthin, to the backwaters of Shropshire, St Martins............its 25 miles away.
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The 1818 Llanbedr baptism has Thomas Lewis at Croes Isa, he is a groom.
On the map I'm sure it's Groes Isaf under the E in Llanbedr.
https://maps.nls.uk/view/102341183
My Gt Gt Grandmother was born in Scotland c 1870 but her father was a groom born in Flintshire. The family moved to different parts of the country and he was still in the same type of work in all of them .They ended up in Cheshire.
Maybe Thomas did the same, but it's quite a few years between the baptism and marriage of Mary.
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Your right Wilcoxon, you cant assume that either parent was from that village, especially if the father was in a transient occupation.
On Marys marriage certificate in 1844, his occupation is listed as a labourer but in either case, it doesnt help in moving the tree backwards.
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there's a baptism same parish 17 Nov 1816 for John Lewis son of Thomas & Mary Lewis, Thomas is noted as 'Huntsman to Price Jones Esq.'
Agree that Thomas may have moved with the family he worked for.
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Nice find osprey, confirms he was in the area for at least 2 years then as a huntsman/groom.
If I've got him on daughter Marys marriage certificate in 1844 as a labourer, that's a big change in occupation so is it the right family??.................although I'm happy that the Mary Lewis who married Thomas Minshall is the correct one.
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The 1816 baptism was in Llanfair Dyffryn Clwyd, a different parish, the opposite side of Ruthin, but not too far. No help really 🙁
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/DEN/LlanfairDC
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Sorry, it came up when I was searching with Llanbedr & I didn't notice the different parish.
Having looked for Mary in later census years and found that her husband was a boatman, I don't think you need to worry about her moving, suspect it was Thomas going along the Llangollen Canal.
https://waterways.org.uk/waterways/discover-the-waterways/llangollen-canal
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Your right osprey, there's a history of boatman on both sides of the family, and of other boatman marrying boatmen's daughters, records from 1841 onwards cover a fair amount of the north and middle of the country.
Mary Lewis was born in Wales, census records prove that, my concern is where her parents were born, did they or just Mary move to Shropshire prior to her marriage to Thomas Minshall??........ I think this is going to end up being one of those brick wall situations ::) ::)
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I did some research for a friend and came across some of the important families around Ruthin, Cefn Coch rang a bell but it was much later than this.
This hasn`t solved the problem with Thomas Lewis and his family, but it shows that he was employed by a good family. Also that Price Jones moved around, ended up close to Llangollen, presumably died in Wrexham and was buried in Llanychan.
Baptisim at Llanfair Dyffryn Clwyd,17 Nov 1816 for John Lewis son of Thomas & Mary Lewis, abode Cefn Coch, Garth y g. (Garthgynan) Thomas is 'Huntsman to Price Jones Esq.'
Price Jones married Sep 1817 Llanfair Dyffryn Clwyd, Denbighshire, Wales
Spouse Anne Routh. both signed .
Cambrian Index. Newspapers Jan 1818
On Monday the 12th inst, at Cefn Coch , near Ruthin , the lady of Price Jones, Esq. of a daughter.
Baptisms Llanbedr Dyffryn Clwyd, Denbighshire,
Mary Anne Jones Baptism Age 6 Birth Date 12 Jan 1818
Baptised the same day. Published in Cambrian Index as Berth House, Ruthin.
Caroline Louisa Jones aged 4 at Berth House. Ruthin Price esq Ann
Birth date 15 Nov 1819. Baptism Date 10 Nov 1824
Baptised 10 Nov 1824 Price Jones at Llanbedr Dyffryn Clwyd, Denbighshire, Wales
Father Price Jones Esq. Anne of Berth.
So Price Jones had moved for Cefn Coch to Berth, by the time he died he had moved again.
8th June 1830 Newspapers Carmarthen Journel. Also Chester Chronicle 25 June 1830.
Death On the 8th inst. Price Jones, Esq. of Glynn, late of Berth House, near Ruthin. So he had left Berth House.
This is the only match.
Price Jones abode Wrexham Age 34
Burial 24 Jun 1830 Llanychan, Denbighshire. Llanychan is just outside Ruthin close to Llanbedr Dyffryn Clwyd.
There is a will. Price Jones Esq Residence Glanyrafon, Denbigh
Probate Date 3 Mar 1831. The will is dated January 1827.
He bequeaths to Robert Humphreys Jones of Ruthin
Wife and children are not named .
There are papers in Ruthin Archives
DD/RC/1240 Appointment in fee
Price Jones of Berth, co. Denbigh. 1 Nov 1825
30 Nov 1827 Price Jones of Glyndwr Cottage, parish of Llangollen, co. Denbigh. Hon. Frederick West of Ruthin Castle, co. Denbigh. Robert Humphreys Jones of Ruthin, co. Denbigh, gent
1/2 Sep 1830 Lease and Release
Price Jones of Berth in Llanbeder parish, co. Denbigh, esq.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Cefn_Coch_-_geograph.org.uk_-_202790.jpg
https://www.ruthinhistoryhanesrhuthun.org/broadsheet-54
https://maps.nls.uk/view/102341183
Cefn Coch is just under the A in Llanrhydd.
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I have a similar story of another family member who worked for a similar type of family in Hereford, so much so he named his son after the master of the house and worked for the family all his life.
I can see the benefit back in the day of secure employment, probably with a low wage but accommodation provided, maybe this is the situation Thomas found in 1816 when Mary was born, so Thomas and his wife may NOT have been born locally, in which case its impossible to second guess the answer.
The other fly in the ointment is that whilst he's noted in 1816 as a huntsman for the family, in 1844 on Mary's marriage certificate his occupation is listed as a labourer.