RootsChat.Com

Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: Imcarthur67 on Friday 31 October 25 11:32 GMT (UK)

Title: Help request - deciphering place names Scotland
Post by: Imcarthur67 on Friday 31 October 25 11:32 GMT (UK)
Could anyone help decipher the handwriting from an 1871 census of Paisley, Scotland pls.

The top line I think says "Lanarkshire" but then there is a second word maybe starts with a "Q", Quarter maybe?

The last line I think says "Renfrewshire" & "LillyBank"

If anyone can corroborate I would be grateful.

Ian
Title: Re: Help request - deciphering place names Scotland
Post by: CaroleW on Friday 31 October 25 12:07 GMT (UK)
What is the name & age of the person on the census
Title: Re: Help request - deciphering place names Scotland
Post by: Imcarthur67 on Friday 31 October 25 14:07 GMT (UK)
The first line relates to an Elisabeth Brown, Step Dau, aged 17
The second line is John Brown, step son, aged 13
The third line is Jean Brown, step dau, aged 8

This is a particularly taxing family, as their mother on this census is Elisabeth McArthur, previously Clarkson, but must also be a Brown somewhere in the past to have these children. I believe John brown to be illegitimate so no father mentioned, and I cant place the other two. I had a Lilybank in Port Glasgow, but now realise there is a Lilybank in Glasgow itself.
Title: Re: Help request - deciphering place names Scotland
Post by: Geoff-E on Friday 31 October 25 15:40 GMT (UK)
Sorry  :-[
Title: Re: Help request - deciphering place names Scotland
Post by: oldohiohome on Friday 31 October 25 15:46 GMT (UK)
If the Scotland census follows the same pattern as the English censuses, then the word that starts with "Q" is the location within Lanarkshire where the person was born, if I am not mistaken. But I can't tell you what it says.
Title: Re: Help request - deciphering place names Scotland
Post by: CaroleW on Friday 31 October 25 17:05 GMT (UK)
Have you found the 2 eldest children in 1861
Title: Re: Help request - deciphering place names Scotland
Post by: softly softly on Friday 31 October 25 17:15 GMT (UK)
Just trying to build a picture. Is this the birth of your Elizabeth Clarkson.
CLARKSON
ELISABETH
HUGH CLARKSON/ELISABETH BURNS FR800 (FR800)
F
03/02/1833
641
30 / 90
Douglas

1841 census records her as Betty.

1851--unsure at present.

1864 marriage to Edward McArthur names parents as Hugh Clarkson & Elizabeth Burns.

SS
Title: Re: Help request - deciphering place names Scotland
Post by: softly softly on Friday 31 October 25 17:29 GMT (UK)
1851 census 25 Millroad St Glasgow
Elizabeth Clarkson 18 Servant b Riggside, lanarkshire

-----------
Rigside is a small village in South Lanarkshire, Scotland, about 5 miles from the town of Lanark, and less than 1 mi from Douglas Water. --as per birth.

Narrows down search hopefully to 1851-1864

SS
Title: Re: Help request - deciphering place names Scotland
Post by: Imcarthur67 on Friday 31 October 25 17:47 GMT (UK)
Yes Hugh Clarkson and Elizabeth Burns I have as Elizabeths parents. However thats were my uncertainy comes in. Elizabeth was a McArthur by marriage and the certificate states Clarkson as her m/s name however it also says "widow". Makes me think she was married before, Brown??. So have I got the right parents?
Title: Re: Help request - deciphering place names Scotland
Post by: Imcarthur67 on Friday 31 October 25 17:52 GMT (UK)
But the 1871 census has Edward and Elisabeth McArthur living with the step children, John Brown (also John Roberts Brown), Jean (or Jane) and Elisabeth. Hence I believe they are Elisabeth McArthurs children.

No I haven't found Elisabeth or Jean. This is where the Lilybank comes from.
Title: Re: Help request - deciphering place names Scotland
Post by: Imcarthur67 on Friday 31 October 25 18:00 GMT (UK)
John Roberts Brown, born 14 Nov 1858, Illegitimate, mother is Elisabeth Brown a Winder.
She resides at Green St Calton Glasgow when he is born.
He is born at the "Lie in Hospital" in Glasgow, which we think is Glasgow Royal Maternity in Rottenrow.
Title: Re: Help request - deciphering place names Scotland
Post by: PatLac on Friday 31 October 25 18:03 GMT (UK)


Edited:

Could this be Jean, despite the 1871 census reference to Lillybank?

BROWN
JEANIE FLEMING
F
1863
644 / 4 / 308
Calton (Glasgow)

Could this be John?
Title: Re: Help request - deciphering place names Scotland
Post by: Imcarthur67 on Friday 31 October 25 18:12 GMT (UK)
Yes thats him, I wondered if "Roberts" was significant.
Title: Re: Help request - deciphering place names Scotland
Post by: Imcarthur67 on Friday 31 October 25 18:22 GMT (UK)
Jeanie Fleming Brown has her mother as Isabella Brown, Domestic Servant. Is Isabella a recognised version of Elisabeth??

24 Feb 1863 and Illegitimate.

Mothers address 106 Gallowgate Glasgow.

There is also an amendment, interesting, Duncan McArthur was married to Isabella afterwards
Title: Re: Help request - deciphering place names Scotland
Post by: PatLac on Friday 31 October 25 18:26 GMT (UK)
That's interesting. Have you found any marriage records for Duncan McArthur and Isabella Brown?

Title: Re: Help request - deciphering place names Scotland
Post by: Imcarthur67 on Friday 31 October 25 18:44 GMT (UK)
No only Duncan McArthur and Isabella McColl in July 1863, which is too early.
Title: Re: Help request - deciphering place names Scotland
Post by: PatLac on Friday 31 October 25 18:58 GMT (UK)
Elizabeth and Edward McArthur's first child was Isabella, born 1865 and died 1868, right?
Title: Re: Help request - deciphering place names Scotland
Post by: Neale1961 on Friday 31 October 25 20:40 GMT (UK)
The top line I think says "Lanarkshire" but then there is a second word maybe starts with a "Q", Quarter maybe?


It is “Do. Do.”   Abbreviation of DITTO
Title: Re: Help request - deciphering place names Scotland
Post by: Neale1961 on Friday 31 October 25 20:48 GMT (UK)
Place of birth for Elizabeth Brown, 17, stepdaughter, is Lanarkshire Airdrie.
Title: Re: Help request - deciphering place names Scotland
Post by: Imcarthur67 on Friday 31 October 25 21:01 GMT (UK)
Thank you Neale1961
Title: Re: Help request - deciphering place names Scotland
Post by: David Nicoll on Saturday 01 November 25 09:32 GMT (UK)
Hi,
    Neale1961 has answered the question, but can I suggest you use the report issue tab, on the SP website, they will probably provide a better image for you.
The difference can be huge, and they are very prompt.
Title: Re: Help request - deciphering place names Scotland
Post by: Imcarthur67 on Saturday 01 November 25 10:13 GMT (UK)
Thank you David, every day a learning day!
Title: Re: Help request - deciphering place names Scotland
Post by: Imcarthur67 on Saturday 01 November 25 12:54 GMT (UK)
Would this thread now be better being moved to either Renfewshire or Lanarkshire forum?
How do I do that?
Title: Re: Help request - deciphering place names Scotland
Post by: Neale1961 on Saturday 01 November 25 14:27 GMT (UK)
Would this thread now be better being moved to either Renfewshire or Lanarkshire forum?
How do I do that?

No, it’s OK here, unless you have further questions.
Title: Re: Help request - deciphering place names Scotland
Post by: Imcarthur67 on Wednesday 05 November 25 16:07 GMT (UK)
Bit of a breakthrough!
I requested a clearer copy of 1871 Census for Edward McArthur, and noticed that the three step children's surname, which I though was Brown, and has been transcribed as Brown, could actually be Provan.

Since then I found Elizabeth Provan in Airdrie, and her mother Elisabeth McArthur (Maiden name Clarkson) was married to a John Provan before her marriage to Edward McArthur.

My thanks to David Nicoll for the suggestion.
Title: Re: Help request - deciphering place names Scotland
Post by: softly softly on Wednesday 05 November 25 16:13 GMT (UK)
Great news.

SS
Title: Re: Help request - deciphering place names Scotland
Post by: Imcarthur67 on Wednesday 05 November 25 16:18 GMT (UK)
Is it common practice to notify Ancestry if you think the transcription is incorrect?
Title: Re: Help request - deciphering place names Scotland
Post by: David Nicoll on Wednesday 05 November 25 17:58 GMT (UK)
Glad to have helped. It's amazing what confirmation bias can do, now I look at even the blurry version it is a P not a B.
It also shows the perils of not using locals to do the transcription. I have had a few names and places that have undergone some very strange mangling.
I believe Ancestry can be a bit challenging.
However have you checked if SP have transcribed properly? They are very good at correcting the index, even if it is a hard to read transcription, I have had a few that I only know because I found the rest of the family, and they have corrected after their own checks.
Title: Re: Help request - deciphering place names Scotland
Post by: Neale1961 on Wednesday 05 November 25 21:30 GMT (UK)
Is it common practice to notify Ancestry if you think the transcription is incorrect?

Unfortunately Ancestry transcriptions are full of errors, and you should always refer to the original.
You can make your own corrections to the transcription on the Ancestry site which will show as a user correction. I believe that trying to get Ancestry to make any corrections may be a waste of time.
Title: Re: Help request - deciphering place names Scotland
Post by: softly softly on Thursday 06 November 25 08:23 GMT (UK)
Death info only.

PROVAN
JANE
1
mmn CLARKSON
F
1862
559 / 2 / 84
Abbey Landward




PROVAN
ELIZABETH
32
mmn CLARKSON
F
1886
573 / 509
Paisley


PROVAN
DAVID
mmn CLARKSON
M
1860
559 / 2 / 85
Abbey Landward


PROVAN
JOHN
53
mmn CLARKSON
M
1911
647 / 510
Hamilton


SS
Title: Re: Help request - deciphering place names Scotland
Post by: Imcarthur67 on Thursday 06 November 25 09:25 GMT (UK)
Thank you Softly Softly.
John Provan who was married to Elisabeth Clarkson, died in the Briggend Colliery in Elderslie in 1863 aged just 32. It was an Ironstone mine, a rock fell on him, knocking him off the scaffolding and he fell down the pit shaft.

She re-married in 1864 to Edward McArthur, my 2nd Great Grandfather.