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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Down => Topic started by: Emc4888 on Wednesday 29 October 25 15:09 GMT (UK)
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am researching my Shaw family from Saintfield, County Down, and would appreciate help finding the wife and parents of Hugh Shaw, born around 1798. He lived in the Creevyloughare and Leggygowan area of Saintfield parish.
Known facts:
• Hugh Shaw appears in Griffith’s Valuation (about 1863) in Creevyloughare townland, Parish of Saintfield, Barony of Upper Castlereagh, Downpatrick Poor Law Union.
• He was a labourer or smallholder, renting a house and garden.
• His religion was likely Presbyterian.
• The area where he lived sits near the parish boundary with Killyleagh.
Children:
1. James Shaw, born about 1841. Protestant, farmer’s servant. Married Eliza Hanvey (Catholic) on 27 April 1864 in the Downpatrick registration district.
• Father listed as Hugh Shaw, labourer, residence Leggygowan, Saintfield.
• Witnesses were David Shaw and Isabella Hanvey.
2. David Shaw, probably born in the late 1840s, likely James’s younger brother.
Records checked so far:
• Civil marriage of James Shaw and Eliza Hanvey (1864) – confirms father Hugh Shaw, labourer.
• Griffith’s Valuation – Hugh Shaw in Creevyloughare.
• 1917 census search form for Ann Shaw – parents Hugh and Jane, residence Carrowgarragh, Killyleagh.
Next steps:
I plan to search the following Presbyterian registers for baptisms of Hugh’s children or his marriage:
• Lissara Presbyterian (Saintfield) – baptisms 1809–1909
• Saintfield 2nd Presbyterian – baptisms 1831–1884
• Killyleagh 1st Presbyterian – baptisms 1829–1899
• Killyleagh 2nd Presbyterian – baptisms 1832–1899
Questions:
1. Does anyone have access to these Presbyterian baptism records for the 1830s–1850s who could look for children of Hugh and Jane Shaw?
2. Are there earlier Saintfield or Killyleagh records that might identify Hugh’s parents?
3. Has anyone come across Shaw families in Creevyloughare, Leggygowan, or Killyleagh from the early 1800s?
Any help or suggestions would be much appreciated. I can share the marriage certificate and census search form if needed.
Thank you,
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All the Presbyterian churches were formed long before their records commence, hence 1st Saintfield Presbyterian baptism records only commence 1854 and 2nd Saintfield 1831 as you have.
https://rosdavies.com/PHOTOSwords/SaintfieldAll.htm
Lissara Presbyterian is in Crossgar (Kilmore civil parish, Co Down)
https://rosdavies.com/PHOTOSwords/KilmoreAll.htm
There are a number of closer churches https://www.genuki.org.uk/churches/143633/5/0
PRONI's Guide to Church Records https://nidirect.gov.uk/publications/guide-church-records
Sharing the marriage certificate and census search forms are unnecessary, simply paste the links
https://irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/marriage_returns/marriages_1864/11608/8272615.pdf
https://censussearchforms.nationalarchives.ie/search/cs/details.jsp?id=21555
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Ok thank you- yes looks like it will likely be a dead end. Was wondering if there were any other methods people used to go past these brick walls in rural ulster. I’m hoping maybe church minutes might give a clue.
Thanks for your help!!
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Notes:
James' residence at the time of his marriage was Leggygowan, adjacent to Creevyloughare where you say his father was residing on Griffiths
https://www.townlands.ie/down/castlereagh-upper/saintfield/leggygowan/leggygowan
Hugh died there 1882, aged 84 (approx) registered by a Daniel McGeean of the same townland.
https://irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1882/06417/4842977.pdf
Care you don't mix your Shaws there were marriages of 3 different Hugh Shaws 1846, 1850, 1860 have Ann in mind with that and the census search form which was this marriage https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/marriage_returns/marriages_1846/09307/5370005.pdf
Ann was not found 1851 census with Hugh & Jane in either of the places searched for her OAP claim & proof of age: Cargagh Townland & Killyleagh Corporation.
Searching baptisms after civil registration commenced is not normally necessary, they contain less detail then the birth cert. Killyleagh Presbyterian baptisms are transcribed on RootsIreland 1835 - 1882 (that is when records commence, not 1829). 2nd Killyleagh baptisms commence 1840 when the congregation was formed.
Lissara Presbyterian, Crossgar are on Familysearch so likely included in Ancestry Select Births & Baptisms. Baptisms 1809-1871, Shaws https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-P3JV-NCYS. Marriages 1811-1850.
Killyleagh 1st Presbyterian Baptisms 1835-1882, Marriages 1835-1871 are transcribed on Familysearch too so included in their Ireland, Births and Baptisms, 1620-1881 & Ancestry's Select Irish Births and Baptisms, 1620-1881. The transcript images used to be viewable via film 928510, but no longer. https://familysearch.org/en/search/catalog/387132 An A-Z surname marriage print I can still access shows 1 Shaw marriage pre 1845: Finlay 1839 + Jane & Catherine years unknown, all the rest will be on IrishGen.
Some of the churches you list are only available on microfilm, unindexed and have to be scrolled through labourously scanning the entries for surname. That microfilm is in PRONI, Belfast.
Background https://presbyterianhistoryireland.com/our-services/family-history/
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session minutes are noted in PRONI's guide, only available on microfilm.
David Shaw , aged 21, of Leggygowan, son of Hugh married 20 Oct 1866 at Raffrey Presbyterian, Killinchy civil parish https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/marriage_returns/marriages_1866/11550/8248431.pdf
Another David, son of Robert married Killinchy Church of Ireland previous year https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/view/?record_id=cima-3070125
Marriages often in the bride's church.
David died Leggygowan 1918, aged 73 https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1918/05198/4436075.pdf
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David died Leggygowan 1918, aged 73 https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1918/05198/4436075.pdf
Informant was his son James Shaw of Leggygowan.
1911 census
House 34 in Leggygowan (Leggygowan, Down).
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Leggygowan/Leggygowan/240707/
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai002232562/
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and if click Leggygowan above & adjacent to /Residents of a house
there were Shaws at enumerators ref. 14, 21, 33, 34 & 41.
David being at ref. 21 aged 64, a spinster Eliza Shaw aged 71 at 33 & a Samuel 43 at #41.
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Possible?
Death of Ann Shaw, 14 April 1877, Leggygowan
Age 73 years. Married.
Wife of a Labourer
Informant Hugh Shaw (X), Present at death, Leggygowan
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1877/020551/7211693.pdf
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1. James Shaw, born about 1841. Protestant, farmer’s servant. Married Eliza Hanvey (Catholic) on 27 April 1864 in the Downpatrick registration district.
Had a son David born 7 June 1866 at Leggygowan
Informant Ann Shaw, Present at birth, Leggygowan
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/birth_returns/births_1866/03522/2295715.pdf
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• Hugh Shaw appears in Griffith’s Valuation (about 1863) in Creevyloughare townland, Parish of Saintfield, Barony of Upper Castlereagh, Downpatrick Poor Law Union
Don't know if this fits in?
Marriage, 10 September 1860
Andrew Shaw, full age, Bachelor, Labourer, residence Creevyloughare, parish of Saintfield, father Hugh Shaw, Labourer
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Mary Donnell
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/marriage_returns/marriages_1860/09588/5476966.pdf
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Then we have, again in the Register Office
Marriage, 29 July 1863
Samuel Shaw, full age, Bachelor, Labourer, residence Leggygowan, parish of Saintfield, father Hugh Shaw, Labourer
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Alice Kennedy
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/marriage_returns/marriages_1863/09648/5499267.pdf
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Marriage, 10 September 1860
Andrew Shaw, full age, Bachelor, Labourer, residence Creevyloughare, parish of Saintfield, father Hugh Shaw, Labourer
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Mary Donnell
Had a son Hugh William, born 7 February 1865, at Ballyagherty
Informant Ann Shaw, Present at Birth, Leggygowan
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/birth_returns/births_1865/03577/2318404.pdf
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He lived in the Creevyloughare and Leggygowan area of Saintfield parish.
Creevyloughgare townland, civil parish of Saintfield.
https://www.townlands.ie/down/castlereagh-upper/saintfield/leggygowan/creevyloughgare/
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/4731232#map=12/54.4431/-5.8670
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Any thoughts, Emc4888? Where do you think you are now with all this.
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Had a son Hugh William, born 7 February 1865, at Ballyagherty
Informant Ann Shaw, Present at Birth, Leggygowan
Ann Shaw of Leggygowan also registered David's birth 1866, son of James & Elizabeth nee Hanvy
https://irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/birth_returns/births_1866/03522/2295715.pdf
I would agree she was grandmother and the informant on her 1877 death most likely her husband Hugh. Before the 1880 revision to the Birth & Death Act relationships to the deceased tended not to be recorded.
Original 1863 Act.
36. Some Person present at the Death or in attendance during the last Illness of any Person dying in Ireland after the said 31st December 1863, or the Occupier of the House or Tenement in which such Death took place, or if the Occupier be the Person who shall have died, then some One or more of the Persons residing in the House in which such Death took place, shall, within Seven Days next after the Day of such Death, give Notice of such Death to the Registrar of the District in which such Death occurred...and shall sign the Registry in the Presence of the Registrar.
Revised 1880
10. When a person dies in a house after the commencement of this Act [1 Jan 1881] it shall be the duty of the nearest relatives of the deceased present at the death, or in attendance during the last illness of the deceased, and in default of such relatives, of every other relative of the deceased dwelling or being in the same district as the deceased, and in default of such relatives of each person present at the death, and of the occupier of the house in which, to his knowledge, the death took place, and in default of the persons herein-before in this section mentioned, of each inmate of such house, and of the person causing the body ' of the deceased person to be buried, to give, to the best of his knowledge and belief, to the registrar, within the five days next following the day of such death, information of the particulars required to be registered concerning such death, and in the presence of the registrar to sign the register.
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Thanks for that, Jon_ni.
It is a pity about the relationship not being given, but I guess it was the same in England and Wales until the new Act of 1874.
One thing, an awful lot of those deaths in Ireland were not registered within seven days!
John
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One thing, an awful lot of those deaths in Ireland were not registered within seven days!
Indeed, and even in the 1910's comparison of a burial register transcript with the GRO showed a reasonable number of deaths (and births for infants that lived days/weeks) that were not Registered at all.
The 1863 continued under the caption "Persons present at Death and others required to give Notice within Seven Days, and Information within Fourteen Days."
And the 1880 allowed up to a 1 year window for registration (clauses 10-14)
https://legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Vict/26-27/11/enacted
https://legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Vict/43-44/13/enacted
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"1. James Shaw, born about 1841. Protestant, farmer’s servant. Married Eliza Hanvey (Catholic) on 27 April 1864 in the Downpatrick registration district."
Had a son David born 7 June 1866 at Leggygowan
David seems to be the only child of that marriage. GRONI shows an Eliza died 1867.
D/1867/150/1018/1/314 Eliza Shaw 30 March 1867 aged 21 Saintfield sub-district of Lisburn.
James (Widower, labourer) then possibly remarried 1869 to Agnes Hodgins (spinster) in St Patrick's Church of Ireland, Ballymacarrett, Belfast. Thing is says father was Hugh Shaw, labourer (DECEASED).
https://irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/marriage_returns/marriages_1869/11417/8193587.pdf
(his 1st marriage Downpatrick Reg Office 1864 had father also as labourer and witness David).
Think I'd invest £2.50 on the GRONI death image to be sure of things as I'm not seeing any children from the 2nd marriage.
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Hi- wow thanks for all this! Just reading everything you’ve found now. I know my 2x great grandmother Mary Shaw was from this first marriage between James Shaw and Eliza shaw- she was born in 1865.
Still looking for Hugh Shaws wife’s name (he was born in 1798 for refernace)- might be worth then for me to buy the GRONI death certificate!
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Still looking for Hugh Shaws wife’s name (he was born in 1798 for refernace)- might be worth then for me to buy the GRONI death certificate!
You don't need to buy a paper cert, just view the Full image online (need 50 pence credit worth leaving as enables searches of Shaw births with mothers maiden names starting at least 3 characters to allow for spelling variations as variants option doesn't work). Increase your browser magnification to approx 200%, you will see the suggestion from GRONI about them not wishing people to use snipping tools etc.
https://nidirect.gov.uk/services/go-groni-online
As above we thought Ann was Hugh's wife died Leggygowan 14 April 1877, aged 73 & married rather than a widow.
For reference Mary Shaw born 1st Jan 1865 https://irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/birth_returns/births_1865/03589/2322978.pdf in Lisowen Townland, adjacent to the SE of Leggygowan. Indexed on GRONI with mother's maiden surname of Henry.
Griffiths Valuation has quite a few Shaws in Saintfield civil parish but many are repeats presumably either leasing several bits of land or immediate lessors sub-leasing to others.
James Shaw, occupier, in Leggygowan, map ref 58 & 59, 1 + 4 acres
James Henvey, occupier, in Leggygowan (Eliza's father) map ref 42a & 42b, 1 + 2 acres
Hugh Shaw, occupier of a house only (no land) in Creevyloughgare at map ref 25Ba sub-leasing off Daniel Magean at 25 A&B who registered his death 1882.
Andrew Shaw in Creevyloughgare 2,1,c house only.
an Eliza Shaw, occupier, in Lisowen map ref 37. 24 acres.
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1876 Elizabeth & Martha Shaw take over the lease of 58 from the James in Leggygowan
VAL/12/B/18/19A (1866-1876)
https://apps.proni.gov.uk/DCAL_PRONI_Val12b/Large%20JPeg/IRELBEL1D_031/IRELBEL1D_VAL12B-18-19A/IRELBEL1D_VAL12B-18-19A_M_00060.jpg
A spinster Martha with sister Eliza (informant) died 8 Dec 1905 (reg 3 Jan 1906) aged 67 in Ballymacreelly Townland, Killinchy.
https://irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1906/05574/4565323.pdf
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I can't see a remarriage for a David Shaw, father Hugh, in 1869
There is one for a James Shaw, widower, in Ballymacarrett. Father Hugh Shaw, deceased, Laborer.
But I think it's a different James. The one in Saintfield died young?
This could perhaps be widow Eliza in 1901
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Leggygowan/Leggygown/1231412/
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A spinster Martha with sister Eliza (informant) died 8 Dec 1905 (reg 3 Jan 1906) aged 67 in Ballymacreelly Townland, Killinchy.
Here they are in 1901 in Leggygowan, living with their nephew Samuel Shaw, 31.
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Leggygowan/Leggygown/1231422/
Samuel Shaw, born 16 February 1869, Leggygowan
Mother Eliza, no father named.
Informant Martha Shaw, Leggygowan
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/birth_returns/births_1869/03413/2251681.pdf
So was Eliza the aunt in 1901 really Samuel's mother? Or perhaps his mum might have been James's widow Eliza (that's if James died in 1866)
Though it doesn't say formerly Hanvey
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Samuel says he is married in 1901.
Here he is in 1911, with his wife Lizzie, 42, and a nephew Thomas W Martin, 13.
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Leggygowan/Leggygowan/240712/
Though it says they have been married 4 years.
But in 1901 Lizzie is already a married Shaw, living with her mum Eliza Patterson, and with them is her sister Sarah Martin and her family including young Thomas
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Crossgar/Killyleagh_Street/1229904/
Can't find a marriage for Samuel and Lizzie (Patterson, or even a widowed Shaw!)
Going back to Samuel's origins, there is a death in Leggygowan, 18 January 1918, of an Elizabeth Shaw. Age 76. Widow of a farmer.
Informant Samuel Shaw, son, present at death, Leggygowan
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Crossgar/Killyleagh_Street/1229904/
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There is one for a James Shaw, widower, in Ballymacarrett. Father Hugh Shaw, deceased, Laborer.
But I think it's a different James. The one in Saintfield died young?
This could perhaps be widow Eliza in 1901
Eliza nee Henvey I thought perhaps died Saintfield Sub-District of Lisburn 1867 after giving birth to children Mary and David. James remarried 1869?
That 1901 looks possible though, we will need to await feedback from Emc4888 as to the 1867 1866 Death Registration details on GRONI.
Eliza Shaw [sister of Martha] aged 71, single was in Leggygowan 1911, alone & Presbyterian.
https://census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Leggygowan/Leggygowan/240706
Link for her 1918 death you referred to above https://irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1918/05198/4436076.pdf
I would assume 'Widow of a Farmer' is Fiction for politeness and that Samuel was indeed an illegitimate son (with aunt Martha, uncle James, uncle David etc, and was a daughter of Hugh & Ann, tentatively given James now seems to have died 1866 and the Valuation Revision name change is 10 years later).
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Hi
FamilySearch has a bit more info on those two deaths
James Shaw
Died 20 August 1866, age 25
May have have died at Leggygowan?
Informant(?) Ann Shaw
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QPHW-NB5M
Eliza Shaw
Died 30 March 1867, age 21
Carricknacessna??
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QP71-C772
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Link for her 1918 death you referred to above https://irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1918/05198/4436076.pdf
I would assume 'Widow of a Farmer' is Fiction for politeness and that Samuel was indeed an illegitimate son (with aunt Martha, uncle James, uncle David etc, and was a daughter of Hugh & Ann?).
Well yes, there are two in 1911
Eliza Shaw the spinster, age 71
Elizabeth Shaw the widow, age 72, still with the McMahons
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Leggygowan/Leggygowan/240687/
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James 1866 looks right meaning the 1901 aged 72 is his widow; died 2 months after son David born hence no further births whereas I had thought it was Eliza.
Forgot about Familysearch for the early deaths (let's hope they finally appear on IrishGen next year!)
D/1866/105/1011/2/87 James Shaw 20th August 1866 aged 25, Killyleagh Sub-District of Downpatrick. Registered by his mother presumably, though likely no relationship will be stated.
That is definitely the right Elizabeth mother-in-law, Emc4888 should have been able to clarify last reply when mentioned the daughter Mary.
Alexander McMahon married Mary E Shaw in Saintfield R.C. Chapel 21 Nov 1888, both of Leggygowan & stating father = James Shaw, labourer, deceased.
https://irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/marriage_returns/marriages_1888/10783/5932288.pdf