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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Zaphod99 on Wednesday 29 October 25 14:15 GMT (UK)

Title: Bristol lies partly in Gloucestershire and partly in Somerset
Post by: Zaphod99 on Wednesday 29 October 25 14:15 GMT (UK)
Well, these days it's a unitary authority.

Suppose you need to record an event or person in Bristol, without any finer granularity.  How would you record the location of Bristol in bygone days?

https://abcounties.com/news/which-county-is-bristol-in/

Zaph
Title: Re: Bristol lies partly in Gloucestershire and partly in Somerset
Post by: FJulianSmith on Wednesday 29 October 25 15:12 GMT (UK)
As far as I can see, Bristol has technically been a county in its own right since 1373!  It seems to have been within the county of Avon from 1974 to 1996 but is split geographically between the historic areas of Gloucestershire and Somerset.  I think it is probably most sensible to simply call it "Bristol, England"!
Title: Re: Bristol lies partly in Gloucestershire and partly in Somerset
Post by: Old Bristolian on Wednesday 29 October 25 15:36 GMT (UK)
The ancient city of Bristol was always in Gloucestershire. Over the years it absorbed some parishes south of the river Avon which were originally in Somerset. However the city (which became a county in its own right in the 1370s) has never been in Somerset. Sadly many databases still state Bristol, Somerset.
Title: Re: Bristol lies partly in Gloucestershire and partly in Somerset
Post by: Zaphod99 on Wednesday 29 October 25 15:49 GMT (UK)
Thanks OB.  I'm puzzled by the above link.  I'm still undecided how to record it.  I've always thought of it as being in Gloucestershire.  I don't know why I looked into it.

Zaph
Title: Re: Bristol lies partly in Gloucestershire and partly in Somerset
Post by: Milliepede on Wednesday 29 October 25 16:10 GMT (UK)
It was always Bristol Avon in my day. 
Title: Re: Bristol lies partly in Gloucestershire and partly in Somerset
Post by: Andrew Tarr on Wednesday 29 October 25 17:16 GMT (UK)
It was always Bristol Avon in my day.
Avon was a municipal county invented about 1970 to avoid the difficulty of the Bristol conurbation being in two counties !
Up here, we in Cheshire recently gained the town of Warrington, which Lancastrians will know was always in Lancashire  ;D and belongs there IMHO  >:(
Title: Re: Bristol lies partly in Gloucestershire and partly in Somerset
Post by: Top-of-the-hill on Wednesday 29 October 25 21:18 GMT (UK)
  I wish "they" would leave local government areas alone, instead of re-organizing every 30 years or so. Am I right in thinking that French L.G. areas haven't changed since Napoleon?
Title: Re: Bristol lies partly in Gloucestershire and partly in Somerset
Post by: MollyC on Wednesday 29 October 25 22:01 GMT (UK)
The previous big shake-up was in 1894 when urban and rural districts were invented.  After that County Boroughs gobbled up some surrounding parishes via local acts of parliament.  Added: I think that was probably halted by the Town & Country Planning Act of 1948, which created Green Belts.

The new London Boroughs were created in 1964, then the new counties and districts were invented 1 April 1974.  Metropolitan counties were scrapped 1 April 1986, except county-wide services were retained for Police and Fire.  Some met. districts decided to run joint county services for smaller functions - eg archaeology, archives, in some counties but not in others.  I have lost track of the unitary authorities created since then in non-met counties.  I will not make any statements about Bristol because I really do not know, except to say that Avon was invented as a "non-metropolitan county" from 1974, comprising two non-met. districts, Bristol and Bath.

It was possible to find lists of changes up to 1974 in the Vision of Britain website until a few weeks ago when it was all rearranged, now I cannot find them.
Title: Re: Bristol lies partly in Gloucestershire and partly in Somerset
Post by: AntonyMMM on Thursday 30 October 25 11:39 GMT (UK)
Up here, we in Cheshire recently gained the town of Warrington, which Lancastrians will know was always in Lancashire  ;D and belongs there IMHO  >:(

And under current BMD registration rules, places are always supposed to be recorded as they are NOW - so on the death certificate of someone born maybe a hundred years ago in Warrington and may have called themselves a proud Lancastrian, their place of birth would be shown as Warrington,Cheshire.

Will be potentially confusing for future researchers.

At a families very earnest request I did once record a birthplace on a death reg using its old historical details, which successfully slipped through the checking process. They were very grateful.  :)
Title: Re: Bristol lies partly in Gloucestershire and partly in Somerset
Post by: ReadyDale on Thursday 30 October 25 13:23 GMT (UK)

And under current BMD registration rules, places are always supposed to be recorded as they are NOW - so on the death certificate of someone born maybe a hundred years ago in Warrington and may have called themselves a proud Lancastrian, their place of birth would be shown as Warrington,Cheshire.

Will be potentially confusing for future researchers.

At a families very earnest request I did once record a birthplace on a death reg using its old historical details, which successfully slipped through the checking process. They were very grateful.  :)
And their current instruction can even confuse the registrar.
When I had to register my Dad's death, I was asked for his place of birth. I told them Queen Charlotte's Hospital, Marylebone. They said they had to go by the names of the areas now, and wanted to put Acton.
It took a lot of pursuading that it wasn't that the area had changed names. The hospital was in a totally different location, miles apart (and indeed had been in a third location for many years in between too).
Eventually, sense prevailed.
Title: Re: Bristol lies partly in Gloucestershire and partly in Somerset
Post by: AntonyMMM on Thursday 30 October 25 14:11 GMT (UK)
And their current instruction can even confuse the registrar.
When I had to register my Dad's death, I was asked for his place of birth. I told them Queen Charlotte's Hospital, Marylebone. They said they had to go by the names of the areas now, and wanted to put Acton.
It took a lot of pursuading that it wasn't that the area had changed names. The hospital was in a totally different location, miles apart (and indeed had been in a third location for many years in between too).
Eventually, sense prevailed.

Obviously they hadn't read the manual properly !  The guidance, for the birthplace on a death registration,  is that things like a hospital name aren't included only the town/village and county, so they should just have put:

"Marylebone, City of Westminster"

If you, as the informant really wanted it on there I would probably have entered it as:

"Marylebone, City of Westminster: Queen Charlotte's Hospital"

...although it would probably have been queried and got me a telling off during the quarterly checking process.
Title: Re: Bristol lies partly in Gloucestershire and partly in Somerset
Post by: ReadyDale on Thursday 30 October 25 16:58 GMT (UK)
They just wanted to put Acton, which was false. I'd have been ok with just Marylebone.
Title: Re: Bristol lies partly in Gloucestershire and partly in Somerset
Post by: radstockjeff on Thursday 30 October 25 17:09 GMT (UK)
The previous big shake-up was in 1894 when urban and rural districts were invented.  After that County Boroughs gobbled up some surrounding parishes via local acts of parliament.  Added: I think that was probably halted by the Town & Country Planning Act of 1948, which created Green Belts.

The new London Boroughs were created in 1964, then the new counties and districts were invented 1 April 1974.  Metropolitan counties were scrapped 1 April 1986, except county-wide services were retained for Police and Fire.  Some met. districts decided to run joint county services for smaller functions - eg archaeology, archives, in some counties but not in others.  I have lost track of the unitary authorities created since then in non-met counties.  I will not make any statements about Bristol because I really do not know, except to say that Avon was invented as a "non-metropolitan county" from 1974, comprising two non-met. districts, Bristol and Bath.

It was possible to find lists of changes up to 1974 in the Vision of Britain website until a few weeks ago when it was all rearranged, now I cannot find them.
And then in 1996 Avon was abolished andthe area re-designated- Bath and North East Somerset, North Somerset, Bristol, South Glos. And LG still being reorganised all over the place. rj
Title: Re: Bristol lies partly in Gloucestershire and partly in Somerset
Post by: MollyC on Thursday 30 October 25 22:18 GMT (UK)
So in Avon county, the two districts created in 1974 were turned into four unitary authorities in 1996?  Now the government is trying to amalagamate smaller authorities to create populations of about half a million.  There is a furious row in Nottinghamshire about which of three districts will be joined to Nottingham City Council district (recently bankrupt).  Nobody wants to be connected with it.

2½ years ago the 1974 county of Cumbria was dissolved.  (Ancestry, please note.)
We now have Cumberland again, and Westmorland-and-Furness.  (Furness being a pre-1974 detached piece of Lancashire.)  But they are not identical with the past boundaries.
Title: Re: Bristol lies partly in Gloucestershire and partly in Somerset
Post by: Top-of-the-hill on Thursday 30 October 25 22:31 GMT (UK)
  At least they can't fiddle much with the outer boundaries of Kent, and there is not much point in altering the Kent/Sussex border, but there is talk of internal divisions. It is a pity Kent was not divided into East and West in 1974(?) when Sussex was. It would be a fairly natural division and we would have got a County Town nearer than Maidstone!
Title: Re: Bristol lies partly in Gloucestershire and partly in Somerset
Post by: radstockjeff on Thursday 30 October 25 22:40 GMT (UK)
Regarding the establishment of Bath and North East Somerset - BANES- some wag at the time suggested a different acronym - BASTARD  - Bath And Small Towns And Rural Districts, which probably reflected the opinions of numerous citizens at that time.