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General => Ancestral Family Tree DNA Testing => Topic started by: GailB on Wednesday 29 October 25 10:09 GMT (UK)
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Hi, I’m hoping some of you knowledgeable people can help with my reasoning on my 2x great grandmother, Elizabeth Jones (No. 19) parents, and if they think I am on the right track.
This is very complicated and so I have attached a brief tree using Ahnentafel numbering to help. My parents are second cousins and so my DNA tree suffers from pedigree collapse. I’m not an expert but not exactly a novice either having tested my DNA back in 2018 and I have found my maternal illegitimate (No. 7) grandmother’s biological father through DNA plus my illegitimate double 2x great grandmother (No. 17 & 25) Hannah Tunstall’s biological father, William Rawlinson.
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Grouping my matches doesn’t show any missing ancestors that would specifically belong to (19) Elizabeth Jones. In fact, all of the descendants of 18 & 19 – Richard Barton and Elizabeth Jones also match the descendants of 32 & 33 (also numbered 48 & 49) William Brumfitt and Catherine Morris whether they be paternal or maternal matches. It also goes beyond, in that they also match descendants of 256 & 257 Thomas Brumfitt & Sarah Hudson – ie. John Brumfitt and his siblings. Plus they match descendants upstream from Catherine Morris.
I notice now we have custom clusters available from Ancestry, that using a Brumfitt match from (64) William Brumfitt (snr), these clusters are exactly the same as using a Barton third cousin descending from Richard Barton and Elizabeth Jones.
Elizabeth Jones was born in Liverpool in the 1840s – can’t give a specific year as her age varies in Census returns, between 1840 and 1850 but most likely 1842-1843 and hence I cannot order a birth certificate – there are hundreds of Elizabeth Jones born in Liverpool. However, when she married in Liverpool on 24 June 1866, to Richard Barton her father was shown as being William Jones, a licensed victualler.
Experience tells me that quite often illegitimate people will often name grandfathers or make up a name when they marry. My theory is that (32) William Brumfitt junior is Elizabeth Jones father and her mother an unmarried woman with the surname Jones. William Brumfitt’s occupation was hairdresser, Beer Seller and later Liberal Registration Agent and he owned a pub, the Canterbury Arms.
In my maternal matches ranging from third to fourth cousins who match Barton descendants from Richard Barton and Elizabeth Jones my mother is their highest match and cM predictions would be correct for William Brumfitt being Elizabeth Jones father. My mother’s second highest match is 56 cM and their relationship would be half 3C1R.
My mother’s highest match with this Barton line is 120 cM, however, this particular match is also descended from (17) Hannah Tunstall’s biological father William Rawlinson. I match this particular match 193cM, she is my third cousin through my paternal Barton side, a half 4C twice through Hannah Tunstall’s father, plus if William Brumfitt comes into the mix she would also be a half 4C twice through him, hence the high match.
On to Elizabeth Jones mother. I have no idea who she may be but I suspect all of my Jones lines and my Morris line are connected, and given that my paternal Barton’s also match upwards of Catherine Morris plus matches specifically on two of my maternal lines this adds some weight to that theory. I have one Barton match who matches a descendant of 112 & 113 Peter Jones and Anne Owen, a few who match descendants of 212 & 213 Peter Jones and Elizabeth Hughes.
Peter Jones and Elizabeth Hughes married in West Kirby, Wirral in what was Cheshire in 1774. Both lived very long lives and lived past the 1841 Census which states both were not born in the County (Cheshire). Given their surnames I suspect they were born in North Wales. 112 Peter Jones was born in Newmarket/Trelawnyd, Flintshire in 1765 as were his descendants. Catherine Morris’ ancestors which includes Jones were from the Meliden and Prestatyn areas of Flintshire. Meliden and Trelawynd are neighbouring villages.
If you have read and understand all of this thank you and if you think I am on the right track please let me know.
Gail
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Gail.
Your line of reasoning looks logical.
On their own I do not trust Certificates as representing actuals, other supporting evidence is required.
DNA evidence may point to an individual, however is there any other supporting evidence?
Liverpool at the time of Elizabeth’s birth was a rapidly expanding City and the building and Port expansion required vast quantities of labour so it is not surprising that you are having difficulties identifying her.
What evidence can you actually rely on to ID her.
Do remember that beyond 3xGGP level it is very possible that no DNA or very little is inherited by the generations alive today.
Pedigree Collapse does screw up DNA Inheritance and the likes of DNA Painter cannot be relied upon to give accurate probabilities of relationships.
Custom Clusters do seem presently to have limitations, for me there is no filtering feature that could be used to omit known Groups which in turn would allow the algorithm to focus on specific Groups and on the Unallocated.
Do keep the thread going with developments.
Do keep options open and test any hypothesis that you generate.
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Thanks Biggles for looking into my messy ancestors it is very much appreciated.
I don’t have any other supporting evidence other than DNA.
I was in contact with a Barton descendant of one Alice Barton’s siblings but he’s not talking to me any more. When I first got my results I could see all of this but incorrectly thought that William Brumfitt was Richard Barton’s father, not Elizabeth Jones. At the time, I hadn’t worked out that we all have DNA matches upstream of Richard Barton. I did mention my theory to this match and he was not impressed at all and said that he didn’t trust DNA and it was all wrong.
Fast forward six or seven years and I think I was right just had the wrong parent.
The only thing I can say is that Edward Brumfitt, Hannah Tunstall, Richard Barton and Elizabeth Jones and their three children I descend from – Ernest Edward Brumfitt, Alice Barton and Thomas Edward Brumfitt were all born in Liverpool and the younger generation all moved to Hoylake, Wirral in the 1880s and 1890s.
Of course, if my theory does prove to be correct then not only are my parents second cousins, but my great grandparents Ernest Edward Brumfitt and his wife Alice Barton would be half first cousins. Scary thought!
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I am no authority on this as Biggles and David know, I have a somewhat similar issue, but on reading through a couple times and looking at your posted tree, I am wondering why you are not able to search for Elizabeth's birth. If she was born in the 1840 surely it ought to have been registered. That started in 1837.
It might be useful to try on here. www.freebmd.org.uk
You can search for marriages, births and deaths. You can choose a date range etc. I use it quite frequently as a starting point and a sifter. it may give you a clue or two.
Hope this helps.
Essnell
would either of these be possibles: 1841, Sept qtr vol 20 p432 1842 similar but on pg 434
These are both then on GRO with MMN Jones.
Essnell.
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Hi Essnell,
The problem is that Elizabeth's age is not consistent throughout the Census records. She was born between 1840 and 1850 but most likely to be 1842-1844. Unfortunately there are literally hundreds of Elizabeth Jones born in Liverpool at that time.
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There are 179 Registered Births of an Elizabeth Jones in Liverpool, in the period 1850 to 1850 & this becomes 89 Registered Births for the years 1841 to 1845.
Quite a task in itself to ID her and to follow her likely trails.
BTW, I have found your Tree on Ancestry and have had a look at Elizabeth’s profile.
I went back to searching and specifically for an Elizabeth Jones b1843 +/- 2 in the 1851 Census where there are 46 records.
If we then omit those where there are a parent listed the numbers reduce significantly.
OK, perhaps I should explain the rationale that is going through my old grey matter.
A Motherless baby is likely to be (1) in the workhouse (2) being raised by family.
Unless Elizabeth is in one of the 1851 census records with her Mother so I would go through each of the 46 to see what it shows for an Elizabeth making a note of entries of interest (me being me, I would take a screenshot).
Going through the 1851 census we are also looking for entries where there is an Elizabeth Jones with other people who do not have the Jones surname, and Elizabeth is likely to be listed as a Visitor or Niece or Grandchild.
A possibility is then to build a series of trees around the likely families and then look to see if any DNA matches link to any of these families.
This in turn could help ID Elizabeth’s actual maternal family.
Hope this helps.
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HI ,
i agree with Biggles if that is the scenario.
But i have seen the marriage document for Elizabeth to Barton and it gives their ages as both being 21.. not full age ...a definite number . Taking that as possibly correct or nearly so -Elizabeth was born C 1845/6. Also on that Cert her father is named as William Jones.
Unless both parents were Jones to start with Elizabeth's mother would have a different last name.
Have you checked any of this out previously?. Also do you know if Elizabeth's mother died in childbirth?
Essnell
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There are 179 Registered Births of an Elizabeth Jones in Liverpool, in the period 1850 to 1850 & this becomes 89 Registered Births for the years 1841 to 1845.
Quite a task in itself to ID her and to follow her likely trails.
BTW, I have found your Tree on Ancestry and have had a look at Elizabeth’s profile.
I went back to searching and specifically for an Elizabeth Jones b1843 +/- 2 in the 1851 Census where there are 46 records.
If we then omit those where there are a parent listed the numbers reduce significantly.
OK, perhaps I should explain the rationale that is going through my old grey matter.
A Motherless baby is likely to be (1) in the workhouse (2) being raised by family.
Unless Elizabeth is in one of the 1851 census records with her Mother so I would go through each of the 46 to see what it shows for an Elizabeth making a note of entries of interest (me being me, I would take a screenshot).
Going through the 1851 census we are also looking for entries where there is an Elizabeth Jones with other people who do not have the Jones surname, and Elizabeth is likely to be listed as a Visitor or Niece or Grandchild.
A possibility is then to build a series of trees around the likely families and then look to see if any DNA matches link to any of these families.
This in turn could help ID Elizabeth’s actual maternal family.
Hope this helps.
HI ,
i agree with Biggles if that is the scenario.
But i have seen the marriage document for Elizabeth to Barton and it gives their ages as both being 21.. not full age ...a definite number . Taking that as possibly correct or nearly so -Elizabeth was born C 1845/6. Also on that Cert her father is named as William Jones.
Unless both parents were Jones to start with Elizabeth's mother would have a different last name.
Have you checked any of this out previously?. Also do you know if Elizabeth's mother died in childbirth?
Essnell
Hi Biggles and Essnell
Biggles, I followed your excellent suggestion regarding the 1851 Census and there are not many Elizabeth Jones in that scenario, unfortunately I haven’t turned up anything useful, but some families are hard to follow. There is one Elizabeth Jones in the Bluecoat School and so I can’t get anywhere with that one.
Essnell, I did end up ordering some certificates on Saturday, 14 to be precise. I ordered all Elizabeth Jones born between 1841-1845 in both Liverpool and West Derby with a mother’s maiden name of Jones thinking they would all be unmarried mothers, but I forgot illegitimate entries would have a blank for mother’s maiden name. There were twelve with a mother’s maiden name Jones. Two entries had a blank for mother’s maiden name. One of those had a mmn of Preston, the other was Robinson – why they were blank I don’t know. Don’t think I will order any more certificates in a hurry.
I know Elizabeth’s age was 21 on her marriage certificate but on all Census entries with Richard Barton she is two years older than him. The one Census where Richard is not present she is much younger and so her age is not reliable.
No, I don’t know if Elizabeth’s mother died in childbirth.
Details of the two certificates you suggested:
July 1841 (day cropped off) 11:00am Gilbert Street. Elizabeth daughter of Edward Jones, Labourer and Mary Jones formerly Jones.
11 June 1842 at 37 Rathbone Street. Elizabeth daughter of Samuel Jones, Home Missionary and Mary Jones formerly Jones.
I’m starting to wonder if Elizabeth’s birth was registered at all. According to the article below about 7% of births were not registered at all in the early years of registration. Also, what if she was a foundling and just given the name Elizabeth Jones?
I’m about 90% sure that William Brumfitt is Elizabeth’s father.
https://media.nationalarchives.gov.uk/index.php/early-civil-registration/
An extract from the above:
And people were prosecuted. There was one prosecution at Sheffield, and it was in all the newspapers. And actually handbills were made detailing this to distribute to waverers throughout the country. So registration was compulsory. It’s just that the phrasing of it was slightly different. And in fact the General Register Office’s own statistics bear out the fact that in that first period, 1837 up to 1874, the overall proportion of births not registered was about seven per cent. And that’s seven per cent over the whole period.
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You cannot rely on certificates as being accurate.
My own Paternal Great Grandfather’s birth certificate is a work of fiction, his parents were not those on his certificate. My DNA tests and matches prove his parents were likely to be an Irish unmarried couple. So do be aware that the content on any certificate may or may not be accurate.
Now with my own Paternal Paternal lines being Irish there is rampant difficulties with tracing ancestors as records simply are very inconsistent in their availability. Hence finding who is who is down to probabilities and the likely line built using DNA is as good as it is ever going to be. A yDNA test shows people who are my closest DNA Cousins having the same surname as I was expecting but as the MRCA between us is projected to be in the early 1700’s there are two chances of ever being able to positively ID the line via records as being (1) little & (2) none.
With your case it is made far more difficult in the location as Liverpool was expanding rapidly and had a very mixed ethnicity and was a hotbed of religious sectarianism.
90% sure is pretty good as things stand.