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General => Ancestral Family Tree DNA Testing => Topic started by: Romilly on Wednesday 22 October 25 17:46 BST (UK)
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Does anyone on here know, - does this just apply to new DNA tests on My Heritage, or are all kits on there going to be upgraded?
Romilly
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According to their blog it is new kits only.
William
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It does not look like it will happen initially.
Even new tests may not have the whole genome processed.
According to a MyHeritage Blog.
Bound to be a good thing given their pretty poor reputation.
Advice on the forum will probably be to stick to using Ancestry as first choice for a couple of years at least.
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Thanks both.
Yes, just found the Blog and it doesn’t seem like it’s going to happen across the board…
I was under the impression that whole genome sequencing was incredibly expensive, but perhaps not anymore?
Romilly
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Interesting.
It seems they are/will be offering full genome testing for about £25.
The company Nucleus Genomics said they expect full genome tests to come down to practically zero in price.
That's quite telling that FTDNA are offering their full Y at $450.
Hopefully this will be the push required to see some innovation. Full genome can be used to extract Y and mt haplogroups. Would be good to see many more tests taken to match against.
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Thanks 4b2, that’s interesting.
It seems that it will just apply to new tests.
Romilly.
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I read 'somewhere recently' that they only do it one fifteenth as thoroughly as medical grade ones. Also it won't apply to all their tests until the New Year.
Zaph
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I've just submitted a ticket to GEDMatch to find out whether they will be able to process these. Don't suppose anybody already knows? I have old results on MH (uploaded ages ago, not one of their tests) and in general it's not been terribly useful, but for the sake of £29 and future-proofing I'm thinking of giving it a try.
Jane :-)
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Well Ive ordered it!
I’m not expecting to see anything until after Christmas, but I’m intrigued…
I’ll keep you updated as to whether it’s worth it or not 🤔
Romilly
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Romilly, hold off taking the sample and sending it back till MH confirm tests will get the new processing, probably after Xmas. In a recent LostCousins newsletter https://www.lostcousins.com/newsletters2/lateoct25news.htm, Peter Calver suggested that it's pot luck at the moment.
Not heard back from GEDMatch yet.
Jane :-)
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Even with their permanently discounted kits, 3rd party uploads and additions through acquiring competitors the database is small compared to Ancestry. The enhanced test might offer better value for money than before but if it cannot be applied retrospectively to existing results the benefit is limited. I cannot imagine many paying out for another kit on the off chance a non responsive match might/maybe/possibly test a 2nd time.
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Ancestry is currently £39+ postage.
My Heritage £29 + postage and can include a 30 “free” trial of their website.
I may just have a punt on MyH in the new year if this is still going.
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Biggles, I think it finishes today. I remember reading on Tuesday that it was only for the next 48 hours. I got in fast.
Zaph
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I too got the email about whole genome testing, but being a confirmed sceptic I did a bit of maths. The whole genome is 3.3 billion points, the testing companies test about 700,000 points. That means the whole genome is over 4000 times the size of what we have now. MyHeritage would need 4000 times the data storage and downloading the file (which would be about 25 GB) would take 4000 times as long.
I realize that this is a simplistic view as efficiencies can be had but I, for one, am holding off until I see exactly what I'm getting.
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As often happens it's all about the marketing of DNA and how that can give consumers unrealistic expectations. What they don't say is arguably more important than what they do.
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Steve, that is only partly correct. At one time I believe that whole genome test companies used to only supply the data on a hard drive which was subsequently returned. However there is something called CRAM, which I do not know anything about, but it is I believe effectively a compression system and I don't think the data will be 25 gigabytes, although with full fibre internet that would not take that long to download. I can't wait to see what my results tell me and I've already had a previous my heritage test.
Zaph
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Biggles, I think it finishes today. I remember reading on Tuesday that it was only for the next 48 hours. I got in fast.
Zaph
My H have had quite a few reduced cost DNA kit sales off and on, so no rush, we will wait until next year
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Unfortunately full-fibre is a mythical beast yet to be seen in my part of England.
As I said efficiencies can be had, but I'd still like to know what the details are, exactly what we are getting.
For instance all the imputations that are done to compare tests done by different chipsets would not be necessary, an exact comparison could be done on each SNP in the raw imported Ancestry tests and also the older MyHeritage tests.
It is often quoted that we all share 99% of our genome, that would leave 30 million points of difference, will these all be tested ?
There's some marketing guff available but they've yet to state what any of it means, as far as I've seen.
I'm going to hold off until users start reporting back on what they actually get.
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I've had a reply from GEDMatch. It's quite comprehensive and much of it is beyond me but I've asked for permission to copy it here where there are numerous better brains than mine.
The bottom line of their response is that they won't be rushing in to anything. If/when they grant permission to copy their full narrative here I'll do so.
Jane :-)
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It is often quoted that we all share 99% of our genome, that would leave 30 million points of difference, will these all be tested ?
From what I've read these cira 700,000 point tests look at the most relevant parts for autosomal matching. I also read that full genome tests allow for better accuracy and more matches, particularly lower cM matches. And apparently full genome can be used to find IBD at much smaller levels, like 2cM.
This might make it much easier to figure out where certain groups of matches fit in. On Ancestry, you get clusters of DNA matches, typically sub-30cM, where no matches overlap with other clusters. Those clusters always seem to be more in the window of 1725 or earlier for the MRCA. With full genome, I would guess you'd get a bit more overlap with them, and thus more idea where they overlap. With the current system, often 6th cousins have no overlap with 5th, 4th, 3rd, etc. cousins.
The biggest issue would be that we're obviously well past peak DNA testing. There's not much reason for people who have been tested and don't really care about genealogy to test again, which I think is the lion's share of people tested.
I guess the main marketing angle would be trying to push the Y-DNA and mt-DNA angle. I have four Y-DNA tests, and using the coordinates available you can construct at least generally accurate migration paths. I've written up about life on those paths. Giving people that, I think, would be a good selling point.
But it would really be 10 years or so before anyone could build up a decent full genome database. Hopefully MyH give Ancestry a good push, to move on from trying to upsell basic features for £100 / year.
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Hello, where did you get the information for the middle paragraph about peak DNA testing?
As the test price plummets, (MyH £27, Offer expires November 28, 2025) more and more people seem to be going for the tests. The quality of the questions on different forums, has absolutely dived, to the extent that I've left them all apart from those run by acknowledged experts in the field. The more middle of the road ones have become hopeless. There are so many people buying tests, not knowing what they are paying for, not understanding the information they get, and certainly they don't know how to analyze the information. I also feel, no statistics to support that, that you read a new DNA shock horror story each week in the low end of the media. That suggests that it has becoming a more general topic, and I would guess based on increasing sales.
I've had tests with My Heritage and Ancestry and I've just received a second My Heritage test, which I will be returning once they confirm that it will be analyzed for the whole genome.
Zaph
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Zaphod, to jump in and answer your question, Leah Larkin on her blog https://thednageek.com/how-are-our-databases-doing/ (https://thednageek.com/how-are-our-databases-doing/) tracks dna database sizes and to quote her -
"Long gone are the heady days of early 2018, when DNA kits were flying off the shelves. By my estimates, from February to March 2018, AncestryDNA alone was adding nearly 28,000 DNA kits per day. Had they continued to grow at that rate, their database would have more than 80 million people in it!"
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Ancestry added more results in a couple of years than MH have managed since first offering dna testing but are the genuine researchers still buying kits in any quantity?
Forums like RC are much quieter now than they were largely (in my opinion), down to the ever increasing number of social media groups but as Zaphod points out the quality of those groups is often very poor. Just because Doreen in Bradford has a match of 1700cM that's a half sibling she thinks everyone else with a match at that level has a half sibling and won't be convinced otherwise whilst John in Birmingham cannot accept a prediction is anything but an undisputable fact
As time goes by I feel there is less of a family history community than ever before, too many beavering away in silence trying to fathom mystery dna matches, a large percentage of tree viewers are anonymous and the odds of a reply to a message on a par with winning the lottery. Is it far more secretive now than it was pre dna or am I just interpreting things wrongly?
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Yes, I agree that Family History Forums seem to have shrunk in size since the advent of DNA testing. Whereas once people slaved away trying to follow paper trails that often led to dead ends, - DNA can often give new leads. I would certainly never have guessed at my Paternal Grandfather’s name change!
My impression is that DNA testing is much cheaper and more popular in the USA and Australia for example, than it is in the UK and the rest of Europe.
I too have now left all of the FB DNA Forums that I signed up to initially when I was trying to work out what it all meant. I don’t think that it’s necessary to study DNA to PhD level to make sense of your matches!
I think that whole genome sequencing is the next progression from DNA testing and it’ll be interesting to see what happens with the My Heritage offer. I have now received my kit and will probably send it back in the next few weeks. I’ve already uploaded from Ancestry to My Heritage and so the DNA in itself won’t tell me anything new.
Romilly.
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The other reason I left Facebook was the speed at which innocent threads turn nasty. Yes. It happens on all forums, but FB does get so unpleasant quickly.
Zaph
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Does anyone have any idea when the first results will be in? Anyone who's done the new test got an estimate?
Anyone know if it definitely gives mitochondrial and Y-dna?
I've done an Ancestry test and put my Ancestry data onto MH. A lot of my paternal grandmother's family are on there but not many from other sides. I've found Ancestry to be about 99% accurate in matches and maybe 90% in which side of the tree they belong to and I've found out so much. There's still ancestors from pre 1850s that I'm not getting matches for so I wonder if the new MH test would help with things like that.
At this price I just want to find out for myself what the results look like and how to work with them and then I can wait and see if new matches come in eventually. So I think I'm gonna go for it.
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I've seen nothing suggesting it gives mitochondrial and Y-dna. That would really change the whole market place. I'm not expecting it imminently.
My kit has arrived but I'm in no rush to swab. I want to be sure I get the whole new testing.
I just like trying new tech.
Extract from GPT:
"IF your kit was processed under the new WGS system (post-upgrade):
Your data in theory will contain the full genome (autosomes, mtDNA, sex chromosomes).
However — at the moment — MyHeritage seems to emphasise autosomal matching and ethnicity; they have not clearly committed to providing full mtDNA / Y-DNA haplogroup reports (or deep-line paternal/maternal tree outputs).
That means even with WGS, you may not automatically get the detailed mtDNA or Y-DNA lineage insights genealogists value."
Zaph
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The price does seem too low for it to give Y-dna and mitochondrial results, which is a shame as I'd love to know my mt haplogroup. But then I'd want to know the mt and y- haplogroups for all my ancestors.
I've ordered but going to try and keep my expectations low. If the first year's test-takers get helpful results from it and the price stays low, then that might drive a few more people into doing tests.
The more people who test, then the more we can learn even though it is going to be 10% of the people doing the bulk of the research. I'm happy to do the deep research, I just need the data to work with
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Goldfinch, so true. Last month's price was unmissable.
Search for: haplogroup estimate.
It will point you in the right direction for free.
Zaph
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The price does seem too low for it to give Y-dna and mitochondrial results, which is a shame as I'd love to know my mt haplogroup. But then I'd want to know the mt and y- haplogroups for all my ancestors.
I've ordered but going to try and keep my expectations low. If the first year's test-takers get helpful results from it and the price stays low, then that might drive a few more people into doing tests.
The more people who test, then the more we can learn even though it is going to be 10% of the people doing the bulk of the research. I'm happy to do the deep research, I just need the data to work with
Living DNA gives Haplogroup results. I tested there, but you can upload there from Ancestry.
Romilly.
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I think I am on Living DNA. I must check. I'm just curious to know my haplo group. I'm sure it will just confirm that I'm northwest European and very British. I'm starting to sound like Tony Hancock.
Zaph
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This is mine, according to Living DNA:
1la
Maternal Haplogroup
Ilald
Maternal Haplotype
Your maternal DNA is most commonly found in Czech
Republic.
Romilly.
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Romilly, It's an area I must read more about. Initially I wasn't interested in anything other than DNA for finding cousins. Do you think you look remotely Central European?
Zaph
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It was FTDNa that I uploaded my results to. I did this for free but later paid for a report which indicated my haplogroup. Apparently this is the same group as Louis XIV!. Unfortunately the Bell surname group which the report suggested for me only accept membership from those who have taken a full yDNA test.
William
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Romilly, It's an area I must read more about. Initially I wasn't interested in anything other than DNA for finding cousins. Do you think you look remotely Central European?
Zaph
I don’t think so! I’m mainly British Isles, English, Welsh and some Irish, with a mysterious small amount of Ashkenazi DNA. Although Living DNA says that I have 2% Arabian DNA! However, I know that the Ashkenazi is on my Paternal side, and presumably that’s where the Arabian comes in 😉
My late Mother’s DNA, (she tested with Ancestry) is very English, with some Scottish and Scandinavian.
Presumably the Czech Republic just means Northern European?.
Romilly.
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Given the differences I see between my test and my sisters, she is 32% North East England, I am 49%. I would say any number's below 5% (or maybe more) should be taken with a pinch of salt.
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Steve, DNA is randomly assigned.
I have 9% Irish DNA, my sister has 32%! Same Parents.
Romilly.
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Romily, that's the point. It's the randomness of the DNA process that makes the Ethnicities so inaccurate.
Even if the measuring of ethnicity was 100% accurate (which it isn't anywhere near) the overall process would still have a very big error rate because of the randomness inherent in the DNA inheritance.
The reality is our full siblings have exactly the same ethnicity as us regardless of DNA inheritance or Ethnicity assigment. Any differences between us highlight the error rate in the whole process.
So if you and your sister show a 23% error that applies to your whole ethnicity prediction.
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I'm looking on the Living DNA website, as I had uploaded some earlier test data but can't find the haplogroup estimate. Which menu options should I be following?
All I can find is this, ANCESTRY - FATHERLINE:
"Data unavailable
DNA upload files do not contain the necessary markers for processing member ancestry information information. To obtain the full story of your ancestors, purchase the Living DNA member ancestry test."
Zaph
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I have found it using a site called
https://cladefinder.yseq.net/
I uploaded my Ancestry and MyHeritage data and got two different choices.
It looks complex. Work for tomorrow!
Zaph
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My Half Sister and I share the same Father, our Paternal Ethnicities displayed by Ancestry are similar but not exact.
Such is the random nature of DNA inheritance and the partial DNA segment analysis that is currently employed by Ancestry.
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The price does seem too low for it to give Y-dna and mitochondrial results, which is a shame as I'd love to know my mt haplogroup. But then I'd want to know the mt and y- haplogroups for all my ancestors.
I have been able to pick out a few (not many) of the Y-DNA haplogroups of my lines by looking through the groups on FTDNA and finding people who are obviously on the same line.
The FTDNA Y-DNA is grossly overpriced. That company is not looking to grow. Maybe it can't. They are just sitting on the cash flow of being the only real option for Y-DNA tests. Hopefully MyHeritage can offer a major breakthrough with full genome, and push Ancestry to get their act together rather than just trying to upsell us basic features.
You can get full genome tests from Nucleus for less than a less than full resolution DNA test from FTDNA. Nucleus say that within about ten years the price of full genome tests will be close to zero. It would be good to see them jump into genealogy, as it's the sort of company that is seeking huge growth and never making a profit, instead chasing dominance and equity value.
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The price does seem too low for it to give Y-dna and mitochondrial results, which is a shame as I'd love to know my mt haplogroup. But then I'd want to know the mt and y- haplogroups for all my ancestors.
I have been able to pick out a few (not many) of the Y-DNA haplogroups of my lines by looking through the groups on FTDNA and finding people who are obviously on the same line.
I joined a surname group on FTDNA with the hope that would work for me on the paternal line, but no luck on finding a previous test-taker who was definitely from the right line. It is a technique worth trying though.
Is Wikitree any good for doing this? I've never joined it but if people add haplogroups there it could be a useful site for this purpose.
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Only the ftDNA Big 700 y-DNA test will give a detailed Haplogroup.
Lesser tests will give a Haplogroup like R-M269 which originated about 10,000 years ago.
Upgrading say a 111 test to the Big 700 will result in a more recent Haplogroup Mutation.
For me the 111 gave me Matches that have the Surname that I was seeking and a probable MRCA to them in the 1650 to 1730 range.
I too joined a Surname group with the result “good luck” in one message.
At $450 US the Big 700 is certainly not cheap.
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Zaph, it’s very easy to find your Haplogroup on the Living DNA Site.
I’ve copied a little of it from my test pages, (see below) but it gives a lot more detailed information:
Your Motherline
Mitochondrial or MT DNA is found in the mitochondria cells. It contains 16,500 DNA bases, meaning it is much smaller than the autosomal genome (3 billion) or the Y chromosome (50,000). You will see this if you choose to download your raw data.
Your Mitochondrial DNA is passed directly to you by your mother, and to her by her mother and so on without undergoing any changes (recombination). This means your MT DNA information is identical to your mother, because of this we can tell you about your ancestral information from your mother.
Unlike Y Chromosome your mitochondrial DNA is found in both men and women so anyone who takes a test will be able to receive these results.
You and your maternal Haplogroup
Your mitochondrial test provides you with your maternal haplogroup, which is a code that describes a group of people that share a common ancestor. From this test you can confirm whether you share a maternal ancestor in the last 50 generations with someone with a high degree of confidence.
Your haplogroup can tell you the storey of your ancestors from 10,000s of thousands of years ago.
You can discover where they originated from, which migration routes they followed as well as their current distribution throughout the world.
Romilly.
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Romilly, thank you for going to the trouble of providing that information. I have been looking at it earlier this morning, but what you've given me in addition will really help. As I think I might have said earlier in this, it's an area that I haven't really investigated in full, but as more and more people are having tests the subject comes up with increasing frequency. Thank you again.
Zaph
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Given the differences I see between my test and my sisters, she is 32% North East England, I am 49%. I would say any number's below 5% (or maybe more) should be taken with a pinch of salt.
I have been thinking about this. I think what we need is to see 2 or more siblings plus the parents estimates. Theoretically the parent(s) estimate for the region should be equal or higher than for each of the siblings.
For instance parent 1 has 30% Irish, parent 2 has 0% Irish. Child one has 25% and child 2 has 15% Irish.
But it might be complicated more than that if an ancestor from the Netherlands moved to England and The Netherlands/Belgium/Germanic shows up for the parent and the English location shows up for the child.
It is hit and miss and I don't think it's worth doing a DNA test just to find out regions, but it is interesting and I do wonder if I do have ancestors from those places,
I did manage to find one ancestor with surname Norton (Suffolk) whose father's name was Norden. Norden is Netherlands spelling of the same name and may have contributed 1% of the Netherlands/Belgian/Germanic that shows up in my DNA, but as the original immigrant must have arrived 1600s or earlier it can't account for the 15% or so that Ancestry is showing for those regions and none of the other surnames seem like they might be from Europe even taking into account that some immigrants Anglicised their surnames after settling here.