RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: Matthew4298 on Wednesday 22 October 25 16:54 BST (UK)
-
I'm having trouble finding a marriage and death record for one of my ancestors. Ellen Hughes. She was born in Anglessey, Wales on March 22, 1864 (parents Hugh and Jane Hughes). She married William Jones, a joiner, in West Derby on November 24, 1891. They continued to live in the Liverpool area. They had five children, Jane (my great-grandmother), Ellen, Lydia (Ellen and Lydia I believe were later taken from the home and sent to Canada), Owen (died as a child) and Christopher. William died in 1906. Ellen and Christopher were living in Liverpool in the 1911 census. Jane immigrated to America in 1920 and gave her mother's name as Mrs. Owen (address 14 Carrington St). Sure enough Ellen Owen and her son Christopher were living at this address in the 1921 census. Ellen is said to be married, but her husband was not at the address when the census was taken, so I don't know his first name. I looked at the BMD index and found an Ellen Jones marring an Owen in the Toxteth District in 1918. I was sure this must be the match. But it wasn't. It was the first marriage for both of them and they were in their twenties. I've also been unable to find any death record of hers. Does anyone have any tips on how I should proceed in my search? It has been very frustrating. Currently this is one of the few gaps I have in my family history.
-
An Ellen Owen, age 60, died Sep Qtr 1924, Liverpool, Volume 8b, page 150.
If this looks correct maybe you could find her burial. She may have been buried in the same plot as her second husband. Its possible her second marriage may have taken place in Anglesey if she had ties there, but of course could be anywhere.
Ray
-
Ellen's on the electoral register at that address from 1918 - 1923. But no Mr Owen registered there
-
I did get the 1924 death certificate for the Ellen Owen you mentioned a month ago. I am attaching it here. It is certainly a possibility, but I'm not sure that I can conclusively say that it is the correct Ellen Owen. While the death took place and is registered in Liverpool, her address is given as Beaumaris. If I could find the marriage record between her and a James Owen, grocer I think I would be more satisfied.
I do find it puzzling that there is no Mr. Owen registered at the address Ellen is living at 1918-1923. She wasn't widowed again according to the 1921 census. Were they estranged and living apart? Did he have a job at sea? I have to confess that I am not very familiar with the ins and outs of UK genealogy. Most of my research has been in the US and Germany. I am often frustrated by the lack of information in UK records!
-
That James & Ellen Owen are at the Church Street Beaumaris address in 1921
-
That would confirm that this is the wrong Ellen Owen.
-
Deleted. Info already provided
-
Difficult without full access, but
Ellen Owen at 14 Carrington Street in 1921, but not afterwards on electoral registers?
Did they move to 24 Jacob Street :-\
Helen Owen there from 1922, later a Christopher Jones as well?
Ellen's on the electoral register at that address from 1918 - 1923. But no Mr Owen registered there
OK, I should pay attention!
-
In 1919, a Richard Owen is at 24 Jacob Street.
-
Who is Richard?
I'm having trouble finding
the family in 1901 :(
And I see Ellen and Christopher are in the 1921 index with their names the wrong way round!
All very vexing.
Was Christopher registered as Christmas? What happened to him?
JONES, CHRISTMAS
Mother's Maiden Surname: HUGHES
GRO Reference: 1902 M Quarter in WEST DERBY Volume 08B Page 302 Occasional Copy: A
-
Is this the family on the 1901 census Piece 3453 Folio 55
Walton on the hill Liverpool
William Jones 50 b Mold occupation joiner
Ellen Jones 36 b Llanrng Wales
Ellen 8,Jane 5, Owen 11 months all born West Derby
John H Hughes age 23 boarder b Llanrng Wales ?
Lydia is with her grandparents Hugh and Jane Hughes
Rosie
-
Looks good, Rosie.
Better than anything I've found!
Ellen Owen wasn't at 14 Carrington Street on the electoral registers till 1923. Who said that!
Last time is spring 1921, with Margaret Goodlass.
Autumn 1922
24 Jacob Street
Sarah Hughes
Thomas Parkinson
Helen Owen
A few comings and goings at 24 Jacob Street, then
Spring 1926
Sarah Hughes
Helen Owen
Harold Long
Christopher Jones
By the 1927-28 register it's just the two of them listed!
Helen Owen
Christopher Jones
1928-29 - gone :(
-
1928-29, and not there before
21 Parkhill Road
Ellen Owens
Christopher Owens
(plus two others)
1929-30 - name change!
21 Parkhill Road
Ellen Owens
Christopher Jones
-
1931-32
Gone!
-
1931-32
Gone!
But only to number 25
25 Parkhill Road
Christopher Jones
Edith Jones
Ellen Owen
-
1932-33
25 Parkhill Road
Christopher Jones
Edith Jones
No Ellen. Has she moved, died?
Is Edith the wife of Christopher?
-
In conclusion, just throw this in!
Christmas Jones was born 25 December 1901 (from school records)
In 1939, down in Lewisham, there is a Christopher Jones, born 25 Dec 1900, Electrical Draughtsman.
Wife is Edith Jones, born 15 Mar 1910
Two redacted entries follow on ancestry (on same schedule)
Address 41 Manor Park. Not listed on the 1939 electoral register.
In 1921 Christopher was a Motor Car Electrician.
-
Gro.gov
Christmas Jones 1902 M Quarter
West Derby
Mothers maiden name Hughes
Rosie
-
Who is Richard?
The person on the electoral register at 24 Jacob Street in 1919.
I mentioned him because his surname was Owen, and we are looking for Mr Owen.
However, as you know, he may be another random Owen.
-
Ellen's on the electoral register at that address from 1918 - 1923. But no Mr Owen registered there
This is the Carrington St address, and I agree
So there is some cross over with Jacob street if it is the same Ellen/Helen
(Which does seem very likely)
-
Well I don't understand it!
Though I suppose it is more likely that one person has had a brainstorm than two.
I did check the images. I didn't find Ellen in spring 22, perhaps I missed her at 14 Carrington :-\
-
Suppose that Ellen had acquired the Owen name by cohabiting with a Mr Owen, but hadn't actually married him.
And that, say, son Christopher knew this.
Could her death have been registered as Jones?
-
Well bother, I cannot find it now. But I know I saw the entries, because I typed them all up, and then realised Mabel had already found them, so deleted my post.
-
Don't worry about it. I did enough of that earlier today!
It's not entirely smooth though at Jacob Street, Ellen being Helen, and Christopher taking a few more years to appear there on the registers than he might of done.
-
It’s annoying though!
-
It has been very frustrating.
Do come back and let us know how you think we have been getting on.