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Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: Higpoidius on Tuesday 21 October 25 14:17 BST (UK)
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Can anyone help with this?
Catharina Margharetha Friedricke Hadde m. Rolfs Mammen (Mamme Roolfs Mammen) 1857, Whitechapel, London.
On the 1861 census she gives her b. as 1822, on the 1871 census b. is 1832, both in Oldenburg. Can't find her on the 1851 UK census.
Looking for her parents/family. Any help greatly appreciated.
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Purchase of the marriage certificate should hopefully give you the names of fathers. :)
June quarter 1857 - Whitechapel RD - page 273
Rolfs or Rolphs Mammen and Catharine Hadde/Catherine Hadde
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Thanks for this BumbleB.
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In the German provinces,
Katharina, Katharine, Katarina, Katherina, Katerina are more likely than forms with C.
Margareta, Margarete, Margarethe are the usual spellings.
Friederike is the usual feminine form of Friedrich.
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Thanks for this information, HughC.
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Here´s a tree that has your people
https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/person/tree/205700797/person/252706141268/facts
Dave
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Thanks for that davecapps. Very useful.
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Here´s Mamme´s birth entry
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSCB-H9X1-B?view=index&personArk=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AQP2D-6DLJ&action=view&cc=3015626&lang=de&groupId=M9SJ-65K
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Thanks for this davecapps. I had come across it in my research of this Mammen line and was puzzled that some of the names didn't fit my findings. On the record for Mamme Rolfs 2nd marriage in London to Rose Ruth Dressler nee Tuffrey at St. Leonards Shoreditch, 13 Aug 1899, he states that his father is Johan Teoppels Mammen, weaver. I found Johan Teoppels in the Buttforde, Lower Saxony records (where many of this family are from), and he and his wife Frauke Margerethe Kunstfreund did have a son Mamme Roolfs in 1831/2. It would seem that the record you sent the link to is for Johan Teoppels' brother Warner Rohlfs (1805 - 1836). One of the witnesses is another brother, Rolef Behrend Mammen (1788-1852). It has taken me some time to untangle all this, as the records are often very confusing: the families in this Lower Saxony area sometimes give the father's surname to a child, and sometimes the father's christian name as the child's surname. Thus a Mamme Rohlf could name a son with Rohlf as the surname, or use the Mamme to make Mammen. Sometimes they even take the mother's name, presumably to keep open an important female line. It makes record hunting very interesting... The Catherina Margaretha Friedricke Hadde line is still eluding me, even with this knowledge!
Many thanks again for your research into this problem.
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you should be looking at the bottom entry, no 10
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davecapps: I cannot believe I missed that... I have looked at this document over a dozen times, and only ever seen the larger middle entry for Warner Rohlfs, which as I said, I had discounted. My apologies if my last reply seemed like teaching your grandmother to suck eggs.
Many thanks again!
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The name giving you mean is the
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patronymic
Patronymic naming
the surname is derived from the given name of the father or a male ancestor. An example is the surname "Hansen," which is derived from "Hans" and means "son of Hans." or the son of Ole Peters becomes Peter Olsen. In traditional North Frisian and East Frisian naming practices, patronymic surnames are traditionally used, but matronymic surnames, derived from the mother, can be used.
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i have found a chronicle of Buttforde with 400 pages
on page 321-322
i found the entry of JT Mammen
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davecapps that is indeed the word I was looking for!
Your find of the chronicle for Buttforde is remarkable. Could you possibly tell me where I can find it, as it may be able to fill in missing people in my research. A link would be great, or any information on its location.
Also, with the clip you sent, do you have any idea of the key? My German isn't great, but I can work out a lot of it. Is the 1530 before Mammen, Johan Tiophel just the number of the person in the chronicle? The *25, - 27.4. 1794 Bfd, would seem to be his birth and baptism in Buttforde, OSB Dunum 1454 I assume refers to the place somehow. His death is then 21.12 1870, Kehlfass not far from Buttforde. Any idea what the (75,7,0,6) refers to? And he is a weaver, marrying on 1.8.1823.
In the list of his and Frauke Margarethe's children, the u.a I presume is unter anderen. Is this implying another name they're recorded as, or another name in the index they're connected to?
Sorry for all these questions, but this find is incredibly exciting for my research.
Huge thanks to you.
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Here you are
https://shop.upstalsboom.org/angebote/die-familien-der-kirchengemeinde-buttforde-1646-1920-download/80
Found this by chance. on Amazon it costs 119€
I´ll have a look at the abbreiviatons and get back to you tomorrow
Dave
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davechapps: this is fantastic. I have managed to download it, and using a translation aid to find my way around. It has a key to symbols and abbreviations in the index section, so I think I can work my way through that, without taking up anymore of your time. Can't wait to start trawling through it all!
Huge, huge thanks to you for all your help in this.
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Glad to help
If you need any help translating dont hesitate
Dave
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I couldn´t find any hits for Catharina Margaretha Friedricke Hadde
just a thought.
Patronymic naming!!
she could have been the daughter of Hadde ??????
taking the christian name of her father as her surname
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davecapps: no, I haven't found her either. Patronymic search unfruitful, too. Who knows, she may turn up unexpectedly... As she's born in Oldenburg, there's nothing in the Buttforde chronicle.
Huge thanks again for making me aware of that book. Fascinating information about not only the families but also the history of the town.