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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: ollieandjas on Wednesday 15 October 25 16:11 BST (UK)
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Hello
I'm currently compiling a survey of my parish church graveyard and researching the lives of the occupants of the graves. As a churchwarden I get a lot of enquiries from the descendants of those who lived in our village in the past and would like to be able to furnish them with more detailed information about they ancestors, FOC of course.
I currently have an interesting subject, a farmer named Abraham Bull, who married twice. So far not unusual but he married two sisters. At the time of his possible marriage, following the Marriage Act of 1835, it was illegal under both ecclesiastical and English Law to marry your deceased wife's sister. The younger sister's headstone states she was "the wife" of Abraham Bull. The parish register records her as Elizabeth Bull but when her five children were baptised in the parish church they were all recorded under the name of Rippin (her maiden name) with no mention of illegitimacy or the father.
I have located a reference to a marriage dated 1841 between and Elizabeth Rippin and an Abraham Bull which took place in Holborn in 1841. I have looked online for the Holborn registers but cannot locate them. Can I please ask if anyone can point me to any websites that have these records of marriage.
any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.
Jayne
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when her five children were baptised in the parish church they were all recorded under the name of Rippin
When were the 5 children born?
You can apply for a copy of the 1841 marriage certificate if you wish to do so but see if anyone can find it online for you first.
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Hello Millipede
There were six children (just found another one) born in 1842, 1843, 1845, 1846, 1847, 1850
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There is an Abraham Bull marrying Charlotte Rippin on 13 Feb 1834 at Edmondthorpe, Leicestershire. Ancestry references this as FHL Film Number 592706
ADD: Charlotte Bull of Pilton, buried in Pilton, Rutland January 12th 1840.
Is this 'your' sister?
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The Govt Record Office has:
BULL, ISAAC JOHN MMN RIPPIN
GRO Reference: 1845 M Quarter in OF THE UPPINGHAM UNION Volume 15 Page 76
Is this the John Rippin son of Elizabeth baptized in Pilton in July 1845?
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Like you I can only find the marriage index, not a Holborn register.
Meanwhile, in 1851 census in Pilton:
Elizabeth Bull, 30, farmer of 135 acres, widow
with children:
Mary Ann Bull, 16 (in the baptism records Feb 1835 her mother was Charlotte)
William Bull 9
Abraham Bull 7
John Bull 6
Philip Tyler Bull 3
Elizabeth Sarah Bull 2
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A marriage licence was issued 3rd September 1841 between Abraham Bull and Elizabeth Rippin. Transcript on FindMyPast.
SS
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The Holborn registers are on Ancestry, but if it is only showing up in the GRO marriage index then it is quite likely to have been a registry office marriage. A number of trees on Ancestry have the date as 18 September.
Some clergy would turn a blind eye to marrying your deceased wife's sister. Some couples would just go to the next door parish, where nobody knew them.
Have this in one of my lines. Marriage to first sister was in Sussex where both families were from. For marriage to second sister they went to Jersey.
Ian C
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Hello Val JJJ yes Charlotte Rippin was the sister and first wife of Abraham Bull. The Isaac John Bull does appear to have been Elizabeth and Abraham’s son, though he was baptised John Rippin.
The children that were registered were recorded under the surname Bull even though they were baptised as Rippins.
Thank you Eyesee and Softly Softly for the information about the marriage licence. I currently don’t have a Find my Past subscription so I may have to purchase a certificate to be able to verify if this is the correct couple. I think the clergy could have been the problem here for this couple, possibly refusing to recognise their marriage.
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If a marriage licence was granted, it cannot have been a register office marriage. A licence would be needed only for an Anglican church marriage.
According to the Guild of One Name Studies Marriage Locator, the marriage was at St Peter, Saffron Hill.
https://one-name.org/marriage-locator/
I believe the parish marriage register isn't online for 1841, so the GRO certificate will be needed -- or perhaps a visit to The London Archives, which holds the parish register.
ADDED
Actually the register is online for the first half of 1841, but Ancestry have omitted to digitise 6 pages between June 1841 and January 1842, which presumably will include the required marriage.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1623/images/31280_197883-00006
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It could be that the person baptising the children was aware of the nature of the marriage so that he recorded the baptisms with no mention of father. The curate appears to be a William Turner from 1823 to 1849 so could have known both sisters.
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William Turner would definitely have known the sisters as he did live in the village for a while. In 1841 there were only 74 residents in 14 households, so everyone would have known what was going on.
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Thank you Bookbox for locating the church and finding Ancestry’s omission.