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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: jrmrea on Wednesday 15 October 25 02:08 BST (UK)
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The earliest gravestone my family has a paper trail to, located in County Down, starts with:
Erected by
Samuel Rea and his son David J. Rea
to the memory of their cousins
William Rea,
who died 24th Oct. 1906, aged 86 years.
Also his brothers and sister
Samuel Rea, Eliza Rea,
David Rea, John Rea,
of Ballygreen Ballynahinch
In a case like this, would the "cousins" be in relation to Samuel or David John? Is it possible, given 19th century Irish terminology, that they be what we'd call Samuel's aunts and uncles? I'm grasping at straws since William would be about 20 years older than Samuel and the connection is still unknown.
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Possible odd reply but Just me thinking out loud ??? ???
If the family had 8 or 10 children (which wasn't unheard of back then), The oldest child and the youngest child both had large families it could be possible that the oldest of the older child and the youngest of the youngest child could be 20 years apart which would make them cousins not uncles or aunts.
I have one cousin born 1955 and another born in 1974 so 19 years apart (Yes we all have a touch of Irish in us ;D ;D)
Hope this makes sense although I am not saying this is the case here as I said just me thinking out loud. Maybe someone will come up with a better explanation. Good luck.
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I am sure you have done this, but is this the death of William Rea to begin with?
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1906/05549/4556951.pdf
And William in 1901
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Ballynahinch/Mourne_View_Street/1224899/
Have you found all the people mentioned?
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a tree at ancestry calls
Eliza, John, David, and Samuel half-siblings of William Rea. Their parents are children of James Rea and Mary McDonnell. James is William's father, but his mother is unknown on the tree.
Eliza is said to be born 26 JAN 1870 • Belfast No. 10, Ant, Ireland. No information for the others.
edited - disregard or take with a grain of salt all of the above, since William turns out to be 50 years older than Eliza. Hard to be half-siblings with that age gap. I just searched for "William Rea, d. 1906." I'm sure there were a few William Reas around, and the tree owner might have just grabbed the first one they saw.
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this is correct though:
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Belfast Newsletter, October 26, 1906
REA - October 24, at Mourne View, Ballynahinch. William Rea, late of The Haw, Ballycreen. His remains will be removed from the above address, for interment in the family burying-ground, Saintfield Churchyard, this (Friday) afternoon, at one o'clock. Friends will please accept this (the only) invitation.
[signed, or placed by] J.B. Patterson
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the civil reg says Eliza Jane Rea was born 26 January 1870, at 14 Theresa St, Belfast, Antrim.
parents James Rea, a mechanic, and Mary Rea, formerly McConnell
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/birth_returns/births_1870/03364/2233498.pdf
edited - you might have to disregard that also.
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as for whether they were Samuel's cousins or David's - cousin was and still is a pretty loose term. We always called my mother's cousin our aunt.
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--- We always called my mother's cousin our aunt.
Yet in my Irish family we never did this even when they were much older than us. My parents both came from families of 9 children each and the agreed solution was that cousins were called by their christian names by other cousins no matter what the age difference was.
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Thanks everyone for taking some time to look at this.
I am sure you have done this, but is this the death of William Rea to begin with?
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1906/05549/4556951.pdf
And William in 1901
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Ballynahinch/Mourne_View_Street/1224899/
Have you found all the people mentioned?
Yes, those refer to the same William!
As for the others, this is what I've pieced together from a few letters of administration and death notices from the Registrar's District of Lisburn.
Samuel Rea (the cousin) still unknown, although the Samuel Rea's (from top of gravestone) father was also Samuel, hmm...
William Rea b. 1820, d. 1906
Eliza Rea b. 1821, d. 1895
David Rea b. 1824, d. 1894
John Rea b. 1830, d. 1894
Eliza and David both left their belongings to William, David was present at John's death and died ~9 months later. William left his belongings to Samuel (from top of gravestone), even though he was staying with the Patterson family (linked above by heywood). Patterson's wife Eliza was the daughter of John McIlhone and Jane Rea (b. 1843, d. 1919).
Jane's relation is still unknown, although with her dates I think it would make sense to be Samuel's (b. 1841, d. 1908) sister. On both their marriage registrations, father is marked as Samuel (farmer). But it's all I have for now.
This is all very confusing to summarize with recurring names ;D At present, I see 2 loose ends with William seemingly the key between both of them. What would William's relation to Samuel be, and how does Jane fit in the picture?
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Eliza and David both left their belongings to William, David was present at John's death and died ~9 months later. William left his belongings to Samuel (from top of gravestone), even though he was staying with the Patterson family (linked above by heywood). Patterson's wife Eliza was the daughter of John McIlhone and Jane Rea (b. 1843, d. 1919).
William did NOT leave a Will- Samuel was merely appointed to administer William's estate according to law-
Letters of Administration of the personal estate of William Rea late of Mourne View Ballynahinch County Down Retired Farmer who died 24 October 1906 were granted at Belfast [14 Nov.1906] to Samuel Rea Pensioner R.I.C.
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Sorry, my mistake. Thanks for pointing that out.
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Just pointing out
Letters of administration were granted to William for David, Eliza and John also.
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Hi There
Technically, if they were cousins to Samuel they would also be cousins to David . . . Just Once Removed 😁
Tara
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For Samuel to have erected a headstone in 1906 he was obviously still alive . . .
Is this possibly him ?
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Victoria/Station_Road/1222728/
EDIT . . IGNORE ABOVE
I think this is him for reference . . .
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Court_Ward/Concord_Street/934408/
Tara
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https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/view/?record_id=cima-3002136
Marriage of Jane Rae for reference . .
Tara
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https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/view/?record_id=cima-2737382
I hope this is Samuel's marriage for reference . . .
Tara
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https://irishconstabulary.com/researching-harbour-constable-samuel-rea-t4140.html
Not sure if this is you or not ?
Tara
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William was Samuel's best man so they were obviously very close.
Tara
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https://freepages.rootsweb.com/~rosdavies/genealogy/SURNAMES/R/Rea.htm
There are 29 references to Rea & Ballynahinch in this article . . .
One is a Jean (could this be Jane) born to a Samuel and Mary Rea, roughly right timeline.
Tara
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Deleted - wrong person
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Hi Kiltaglassen
In 1901 Samuel and David John are at Concord Street and it states Harbor Constable . . .
Can you please clarify where I have gone wrong ?
Tara
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Hi Kiltaglassen
The OP on this site is asking the same questions re the family background (Wills, Cousins etc) as the person on that RIC site 🤔
Again, can you clarify where I have gone wrong ?
Thanks
Tara
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I think Kiltaglassan has deleted her reply.
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Hi Shanreagh
Thanks ☺️
Tara
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A few years ago visiting my grandmother's half-sisters widowed husband and his granddaughter's husband as we were trying to define our relationship, he said "At his point I'd just say "This is Neal, he's a friend of your own."
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I think Kiltaglassan has deleted her reply.
His reply ;)
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Oh dear....ooops.
Sorry.
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https://irishconstabulary.com/researching-harbour-constable-samuel-rea-t4140.html
Not sure if this is you or not ?
Yes, that was me ;D
William was Samuel's best man so they were obviously very close.
I think the same! Before becoming Harbour Constable, Samuel was a labourer. His father and William were farmers. I found a Samuel and William Rea in the Griffith's Valuation for the parish of Saintfield, although I don't quite know what to do with that information yet.
https://griffiths.askaboutireland.ie/gv4/z/zoomifyDynamicViewer.php?file=083164&path=./pix/083/&rs=35&showpage=1&mysession=3000040331588&width=&height= (https://griffiths.askaboutireland.ie/gv4/z/zoomifyDynamicViewer.php?file=083164&path=./pix/083/&rs=35&showpage=1&mysession=3000040331588&width=&height=)
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Hi There,
Going back to your original questions re 'cousins' . . .
Was the full quote re Samuel and David John plus their relation as cousins to the others on an actual headstone ?
If so, my theory is a roundabout one . . .
I am guessing that Samuel and David John 'clubbed together ' to pay for a headstone . . .
Therefore they may both have wanted to relay their relation to those interred . . .
The issue then would be that there would be numerous different relationship scenarios involved . . .
Just say Samuel was the baby and William the eldest son of a large family . . . That would make those interred his siblings and David John's aunt's / uncles . . . So, how do you convey all these relationships onto one headstone . . . Maybe the solution was to simple say 'cousin' . . . Which I have seen used as a generic family tree reference . . . It even gets used these days to confer a close family friend . . .
If Samuel was half sibling to William etc and David John half nephew to all these aunts and uncles, again, how to you convey this family dynamic on a headstone (or even a newspaper article) . . . again, possibly 'cousin' was the simplest thing to do . . .
Worst case scenario, and if the relationship was a further generation out, and Samuel actually being a cousin to William, it still leads to the term 'cousin' being used . . .
I suppose what I am leading to is that fact that those interred never got married so we have no parentage for them . . .
They were also born long before official records began so no way to prove the family connection . . .
If it were MY family tree, I would lean towards putting them as full elder siblings of Samuel . . .
A 20 year difference between eldest and youngest sibling is not unheard of especially for that timeline . . . A mum having her first child at say 21 and last child well into her 40's is often seen . . .
So, to recap, in my HUMBLE 😂 opinion, Samuel and those listed were his full siblings and the term 'cousin' was used to simplify the family dynamic to include David John . . .
If David John wasn't included I would hazard a bet and say that the headstone would have stated BROTHER William . . .
I hope this rambling makes sense and I know it doesn't answer your question definitively but Hey you never know, someone may see your post and have the answer . . .
Wishing You Luck
Tara
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Thanks Tara for sharing your thoughts on this!
Was the full quote re Samuel and David John plus their relation as cousins to the others on an actual headstone ?
Yes, I tried uploading the original image with this post but it doesn't seem to work.
Your post makes a lot of sense but the only thing putting a wrench in the theory (for me) is that there's another Samuel listed as a "cousin". He's the only one I wasn't able to find anything on yet...
I was initially thinking it might be David John's grandfather, moving William and others up one generation. However writing this out, I just thought that he might have more likely died young and the name was repurposed. In this case your version would still hold, and honestly make more sense.
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Again, just thinking out loud . . .
But a headstone was a big expense back then . . .
Most families would struggle to afford one for immediate family . . . Further out would be a sibling . . . And while not unheard of, to get a headstone for a cousin would be a further stretch indeed . . .
Also, if Samuel was a more distant relation would William not have gotten the Patterson's to put his affairs in order ?
It just leads my gut instinct to say that those interred were Samuel's siblings . . . Given the age gap they probably did a lot of the rearing on him ☺️
Tara
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Re Griffiths Valuation . . .
The Samuel Rea stated was most likely Samuel Rea Sr, the father of William, Eliza, David, John, Jane and Samuel Jr.
Given it being the late 1840's / early 1850's that the GV was done our William born in the 1820's would have been old enough to have been farming his own plot of land . . .
OR It could also have been a brother to Samuel Sr . . .
OR . . . It could have been father to Samuel Sr . . .
OR . . . It could have been a dreaded 'COUSIN' 🤯🤯🤯
The possibilities are endless 😂😂😂
Tara
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Just a quick note re your 'wrench' ie cousin Samuel . . .
As you have alluded to yourself I would put good money on this being a brother, an earlier Samuel who died in infancy and the name was repurposed, as you theorized yourself, to be given to your direct ancestor to whom I shall refer to as Samuel Jr from now on to avoid confusion . . .
So, now we have . . .
Samuel Sr
Samuel Infant
Samuel Jr
(Does that make sense 😁😁😁)
Repurposing Christian names was common, in my experience, especially with a Christian name that meant a lot to the family . . .
I hope that unwrenches your wrench 😂
Tara
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Another musing of mine . . .
We know that Samuel Jr and William were close but another closeness that I have observed is that of Samuel Jr son David John . . .
I was 99.9% sure that Samuel Jr was a sibling to those interred BUT for Samuel Jr to have given his son the double barrel Christian names of DAVID JOHN those exact same names as those interred . . .
Well . . .
I'm sorry but that's a 100% bingo in my book that these were siblings, absolutely no questions asked . . .
I do tend to get soppy about family trees but for Samuel Jr to have gotten a headstone for those people AND to give their names to his children means that they were super close siblings . . . And not the distant relations that the 'cousin' term on the headstone is inferring 120 years later . . .
I do hope I am making sense ☺️
Tara