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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: DamonC on Monday 13 October 25 15:04 BST (UK)
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Ive hit a brickwall with certain ancestors that i am trying to investigate. John Crawford b. 1817? and Janet Taylor b.1819?
The only thing we have for sure from Scotland (they migrated to Australia in 1849) is an 1838 marriage certificate- see attatched. Its a personal possession and matches the more more basic one available on SP etc.
The names attatched Robert MacIntyre, Pro Arch MacIntyre sess clk. Its marked Pollokshaws June 1838. The 2 people there seem to be involved with the Eastwood COS but also have a role as parish clerk.
The last line says "The above mentioned xxxxx were married by me - Finlay Stewart, Min. ".
When i investigate this name it seems that he is very much associated with the Burgher Church. So i have inferred therefore that they were married and associated with the Burgher Church in 1838.
The issue that i have is not finding birth records for their son George in 1843, definitive census records for 1841 (51 they were in Australia) as well as birth records for John Crawford in ca 1817.
My investigations of the Burgher church at that time shows it was a fairly turbulent time with splits in the church, then after F. Stewart died no minister for a bit and then the church burnt down potentially. So, It would seem that maybe the reason i cant find certain records is that they simply do not exist anymore.
Ive found reference to a Scottish record set CH3 1171 that contains some records for Pollokshaws Burgher. I thought therefore that this could be a place for me to search for some information. However, i just saw this referenced in Scotlands people so probably now i think that whatever has survived is already in Scotlands People databases. I am going to Glasgow likely next week (ive never been before) just wondering if theres any point trying to dig out this from the archives and have a look?
Thoughts on trying that? or any other resources or groups that might be more knowledgeable about Pollockshaw church records and have an idea of what was retained and what is missing?
Obviously id like to find the people im looking for but it would also be interesting in a way to know if the records were intact but actually my people werent there.
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Can't help with the Burgher Church. There is this mention in 1806:
"On the 27th ult. the Associate Congregation in Pollockshaws, unanimously made a choice of Mr. Finlay Stewart, preacher, to be their minister."
Wednesday, Apr. 9, 1806
Publication: Aberdeen Journal
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Marriage banns, Eastwood 1838
Gives John Crawford's occupation as a warper in the cotton works.
Immigration shipping list gives his occupation as shepherd
Have you looked through the Eastwood Kirk Sessions in case there is mention of the family? They may have received parish relief.
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The parish of Eastwood (and the town of Pollokshaws) was southwest of Glasgow and was originally in Renfrewshire. Pollokshaws eventually became a burgh of Barony.
When searching with modern search methods, remember to include both Lanarkshire and Renfrewshire.
Also consider that George may not have been the first born child. Since they married in 1838, one might expect at least 1 child born before 1843. There may have been infant deaths.
A few possible 1841 census entries to consider, and research further.
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a14ee89f4040b9d6ef60ec8/john-crawford-1841-lanarkshire-barony-1821-?locale=en
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a14f3a3f4040b9d6efbcb39/john-craufurd-1841-lanarkshire-gorbals-1816-?locale=en
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/67ffd968b18f7c2fafd567b2/john-crawford-1841-renfrewshire-lochwinnoch-1821-?locale=en
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Marriage banns, Eastwood 1838
Gives John Crawford's occupation as a warper in the cotton works.
Immigration shipping list gives his occupation as shepherd
Have you looked through the Eastwood Kirk Sessions in case there is mention of the family? They may have received parish relief.
Yes, seen the marriage banns and the shipping list. I suspect the cotton work was correct and the shepherd was more just to get a visa. Although he did end up working as a farmer in Australia.
Ive had a bit of a look but need to dig there a bit more.
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The parish of Eastwood (and the town of Pollokshaws) was southwest of Glasgow and was originally in Renfrewshire. Pollokshaws eventually became a burgh of Barony.
When searching with modern search methods, remember to include both Lanarkshire and Renfrewshire.
Also consider that George may not have been the first born child. Since they married in 1838, one might expect at least 1 child born before 1843. There may have been infant deaths.
A few possible 1841 census entries to consider, and research further.
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a14ee89f4040b9d6ef60ec8/john-crawford-1841-lanarkshire-barony-1821-?locale=en
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a14f3a3f4040b9d6efbcb39/john-craufurd-1841-lanarkshire-gorbals-1816-?locale=en
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/67ffd968b18f7c2fafd567b2/john-crawford-1841-renfrewshire-lochwinnoch-1821-?locale=en
thanks. the 1st and 3rd id seen but not the second. likely because of the spelling it hadnt shown up in my search previously. thats interesting for sure. theres another candidate that i have that also has 2 young infants in the 41 census that presumably passed away at some point. Id tend to think 2 kids passing away would be a solid motivation to move somewhere else.
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Can't help with the Burgher Church. There is this mention in 1806:
"On the 27th ult. the Associate Congregation in Pollockshaws, unanimously made a choice of Mr. Finlay Stewart, preacher, to be their minister."
Wednesday, Apr. 9, 1806
Publication: Aberdeen Journal
Yes he was minister until his death in 1841 according to "Annals of the original secession church"
There was seemingly a delay in appointing a minister until some time in 42. Then there was some disagreement (about the new minister ?) and the congregation split into 2. One then referred to as East Free the other as Pollokshaws United Presbyterian. Theres 2 seperate filters for these 2 congregations in Scotlands people so there is some records for these congregations. I just dont know if theyre complete. For some reason sorting by date doesnt seem to work in the Other Churches section. So i am trying to plot out what date ranges are covered in births for both.
Beyond the marriage certificate though i have no idea what congregation they mightve ended up in. the 1843 birth of their son George is what i had hoped to find but have been unable to. I know they had more than a passing connection to the area as they called their farm in Australia "Pollok farm". But between 1838 marriage and 1849 migration from London i dont really have any proof of where they were or what they were up to. But George had claimed to be born in Glasgow and Johns description of his work mentioned Glasgow as well so i dont think they were anywhere else (just cant prove it).
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Related thread https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=208843.0
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as i posted in the other thread that was just linked.
Pollokshaw Burgher split into 2 congregations (either 42 or 48 depending how you interpret the text linked in other thread). One became East Free the other Pollokshaws United Presbyterian . Juding by the number of birth records shown by using the filters on these in Scotlands People then East Free retained far more information.
As part of finding this and looking at the list of records available in NRS i saw 2 collections containing something from these 2 churches.
Ch3/1171- Pollokshaws Associate, Pollokshaws Burgher, Pollokshaws United Presbyterian
AND
Pollokshaws - East Free (CH3/1636) RENFREW
The entry on NRS for the first one just mentions a brief description of the church history. no details about whats in the collection. When i filter on birth records from this "Pollokshaw Associate" then there are just 312 births https://catalogue.nrscotland.gov.uk/nrsonlinecatalogue/browseDetails.aspx?reference=CH3/1171&st= (https://catalogue.nrscotland.gov.uk/nrsonlinecatalogue/browseDetails.aspx?reference=CH3/1171&st=)
For the NRS entry on the EAST FREE Collection. https://catalogue.nrscotland.gov.uk/nrsonlinecatalogue/browseDetails.aspx?reference=CH3/1636&st=
It says -
This collection has been arranged in the following way -
1. Kirk Session Minutes - no records listed
2. Board Minutes - no records listed
3. Financial Records - no records listed
4. Communion Rolls - no records listed
5. Baptismal Registers
6. Marriage Proclamation Registers - no records listed
7. Marriage Registers - no records listed
8. Commemorative Records - no records listed
9. Organisation Records - no records listed
10. Photographs - no records listed
11. Other sections
But i am not sure if "no records listed" means they have nothing like that in the collection or not..
In addition, Theres a seperate sublisting for CH3/1636/5/1. It says that access to this is closed as its not fit for production. but theres digital copies viewable.
So, whilst ive found out more, I am none the wiser on if its worth trying to go visit these in person to see if theres any more information than whats available already via Scotlands people. Are there anything but birth records in these collections? What makes it complicated is that the one i link to first is apparently in the Glasgow City Archives - Mitchell Library. Whereas the second one is in Edinburgh. I definitely dont have time for both unfortunately.
TBH if theres no real prospect of finding anything extra id rather spend my day of free time next week looking around Glasgow or Edinburgh instead!
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Have you looked through the Eastwood Kirk Sessions in case there is mention of the family? They may have received parish relief.
I have had a look and theres one entry about a Crawford but its a woman named Mary getting pregnant out of wedlock and asking forgivness. But theres no known Marys in my family tree so not really clear it means anything.
Dont know what there Kirk sessions normally dealt with but seems quite a bit of Prenuptual Fornication going on .
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Information in the kirk sessions varies a bit between parishes. Yes "fornication" was recorded, and often other "questionable activities". The session often contain other records which can be useful.
Full information here -
https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/help-and-support/guides/kirk-session-records
I see the accounts for Eastwood are only available for 1 year, which is a shame. The account records can be useful to know if people were receiving parish support, or had paid for a mort cloth, etc.
The communion roll books for Eastwood contain the names Crawford and Taylor, but I don't know enough about your families to know if there is any connection.
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John and Janet (with son George) migrated in 49. So any records after that would have to be some of their family still being in the area. Knowing who their family were is kinda the problem.
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Information in the kirk sessions varies a bit between parishes. Yes "fornication" was recorded, and often other "questionable activities". The session often contain other records which can be useful.
Full information here -
https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/help-and-support/guides/kirk-session-records
I see the accounts for Eastwood are only available for 1 year, which is a shame. The account records can be useful to know if people were receiving parish support, or had paid for a mort cloth, etc.
The communion roll books for Eastwood contain the names Crawford and Taylor, but I don't know enough about your families to know if there is any connection.
Also too, i dont have really any indication that they belonged to the Parish church at all either. The only thing i know for sure is the marriage in '38 by the Burgher Church minister Finlay Stewart. I think the association with the area was a bit longer term than that due to their Australian farm being called Pollok Farm.
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The marriage banns were posted in Eastwood, and states "both in this parish". So at least one of them (bride OR groom, if not both) was from Eastwood.
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The marriage banns were posted in Eastwood, and states "both in this parish". So at least one of them (bride OR groom, if not both) was from Eastwood
If it says, "both in this parish" it means that both were resident/domiciled in the parish at the time when the banns were proclaimed. It doesn't mean that either was born in Eastwood.
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The marriage banns were posted in Eastwood, and states "both in this parish". So at least one of them (bride OR groom, if not both) was from Eastwood.
In that context i had interpreted the phrase to be more of a geographical reference rather than their congregation. But that could be a wrong interpretation on my behalf?
The private certificate I included above has Finlay Stewart as the minister that married them, so thats behind my thoughts that they were a part of the Burgher Church. The other names there are interesting...Robert and Arhibald MacIntyre (session clk) appear repeatedly in the Eastwood Kirk Sessions around that time period.. as Elders i think. So my interpretation is that this marriage record appears in the COS listings because the COS there acted as more than just a religious institution and fulfilled other funtions. There marriage being registered in the Eastwood church could be apart of those functions rather than their religious affiliation.
The Scotlands people listings for marriages has nothing for any of the Pollokshaw Non-COS congregations. But, i dont know if thats a symptom of the church functions or the lack of surviving records.
I dont know if its because of incomplete records or a symptom of the different roles. Its also interesting that there are virtually no "other" documents for any Non COS congregations (only 2) so it seems to me like its a function thing rather than JUST lost records.
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Before Civil registration began the Church of Scotland Ministers were, in theory, charged with keeping records of all Births and marriages in their area regardless of affinity to any particular church.
Unfortunately although some did this many did not, plus there was an onus on the individuals providing the information to the C of S clerks - some didn't as there was sometimes ill feeling between the congregations.
In addition to this the Burgher's went through a number of transitions as the congregations split and joined up with others until some remained with the Free Church and others rejoined the C of S - all records remained with the particular congregations who were their owners.
Another factor is the fire which destroyed the original church known as the "Kiln Kirk" - the "new" building opened in 1846 and was sadly demolished (due to vandalism) in 1976.
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Before Civil registration began the Church of Scotland Ministers were, in theory, charged with keeping records of all Births and marriages in their area regardless of affinity to any particular church.
Unfortunately although some did this many did not, plus there was an onus on the individuals providing the information to the C of S clerks - some didn't as there was sometimes ill feeling between the congregations.
In addition to this the Burgher's went through a number of transitions as the congregations split and joined up with others until some remained with the Free Church and others rejoined the C of S - all records remained with the particular congregations who were their owners.
Another factor is the fire which destroyed the original church known as the "Kiln Kirk" - the "new" building opened in 1846 and was sadly demolished (due to vandalism) in 1976.
They went throught some transitions alright. I went to the NRS in Edinburgh and the Glasgow City Archives and looked the listed collections plus found one more that was quite relevant. ch3/1632 For Pollokshaws United Original Sucesssion 42-47. That had managers minutes, some financial records but unfortunately no baptismal register.
I started getting confused about the different congregations so made the attached doc to make sense of it. there are a few more contemporary sources that seems to mix up locations and congregations too. Hopefully ive made sense of that .
They were called Associate Presbytry (Burgher) then in 1799 most of the congregation split and became an Original Burgher congregation (old light) and kept the original church. Where the fennels graveyard is now. The minority of the congregation (new light) went to make a new church on Pollokshaws rd. Its this new chuch that burnt down in 1847 so in my case doesnt affect the records.
The Original Burghers kept the original location and based off dates on birth records held the original birth records (ch3/1636) too (the new light church baptisms ch3/1171 start in 1806 when they got their own church).
In 1841 the Original Burgher minister Finlay Stewart ( the guy who married my ancestor.. and the reason why i started trying to understand these churches and the records kept) died. There was an argument about the new minister. So, some split off to make their own church near Cogan Street (the only one still standing) Pollokshaws United Original Sucession. The records to this as i mention are just minutes etc and not baptism unfortunately. They did in the 1950s become part of COS and then merged with Auldfields Parish church to become Pollokshaws Parish. Theres no SP records for them or any baptisms listed on NRS but i am trying to figure out if the baptism records im after somehow got folded into an as yet unlisted COS record.
The original congregation got fed up with their organisation so in 1848 joined the free church. they moved to a new location in 1870. The old church became a community hall that eventually also burnt down in 1883. Even though they moved they seemed to retain the original records from the mid 18th century.
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But i did find my ancestors name in the PUOS church minutes as being on a variety of committees etc. His name "John Crawford" is somewhat common though so i cant be 100% sure. Theres even JC jnr and snr. If i could get hold of the birth/baptism register then hopefully it whould show the birth of George Crawford in 43 (so far unable to find anything for him) then i would know. Not sure finding that is realistic though.
By understanding the records though and that the East Free baptism records represent the earlier history of the above church (pre 42) i can understand later records. So, the baptism records i think ive found for Johns wife Janet (or Jennet as SP has it) wouldve been done by the same Minister as their later marriage. The period that John wouldve been born (1815-1817) wouldve been under the East Free records too if he was born locally and in same congregation. All other local congregations seem to have birth records. So that indicates he mightve been born elsewhere.
The fact that they named their Australian farm Pollok farm is another factor that makes me think that they do have a stronger local connection than just getting married there.
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i think ive found for Johns wife Janet (or Jennet as SP has it)
it's not 'as SP has it'. It's transcribed as it appears in the original document, so it's 'as the clerk at the time would have it'.
Jennet appears 21,948 times in SP, compared with 108,502 appearances of Jannet and 2,819,533 of Janet. Plus 1,373,756 of Jessie, which in Scotland is interchangeable with Janet.
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Point taken.
I should also say ...meant to in first message. The staff in both places were really helpful. Particularly the lady i spoke to in Glasgow city archives. Gave lots of ideas and tips about different sources to check. Kudos to them.