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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Pembrokeshire => Topic started by: Bilham on Sunday 12 October 25 19:50 BST (UK)
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Hi
I have a Lettice Thomas in my tree. I believe she was born in Pembrokeshire (Haverfordwest or Reach) around 1834 to 1837 (based on finding her in all the censuses from 1851 to 1901). However, I cannot find a birth record. I know from her marriage certificate (11 July 1857 to Philip Jenkins) that her father was Benjamin Thomas a haulier.
Any help on her birth record or other info would be very gratefully received.
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Civil Registration was only introduced on 1.7.1837 so no birth certs until then only possible baptismal records.
Have you found her in 1841?
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Is this her in 1851
Swansea
John Baker 24
Helen Baker 22 nee Jenkins married 1850
Letitia Thomas 16 niece
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1857 marriage was in Swansea Glamorgan
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Yes indeed, that is her. I have that record in my tree but I haven't been able to use it to probe further backwards.
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Thanks Carol, yet, I've got the marriage cert. This is the one that shows her father as Benjamin Thomas a haulier.
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Sorry, Carol, I should have also mentioned that no sensible parish birth or banns records are appearing - with Benjamin Thomas as the father.
Bilham
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Re marriage - just confirming that the 1851 was her ;D
Helen Baker was formerly Jenkins
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I wonder if she was illegitimate?
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there is a marriage of a Benjamin Thomas in Roch in 1833 to Margaret Harries.
1841 census only a son Charles born 1840
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M777-FT3?lang=en
1851 census
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGXM-VK2?lang=en
baptism for Charles in Hayscastle to Benjamin & Margaret
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KCBP-ZB9?lang=en
But no Lettice with them in census entries no obvious baptism.
:-\
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Hi Carol
I have assumed the 1851 Lettice (or Lettito) Thomas was mine. I wasn't aware that Helen Baker was a Jenkins. Is that right as it would scupper the 1851 census find - although the later censuses are correct.
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1881 census for the Jenkins family has 2 visitors named Griffiths, mother & daughter.
Looks like the mother is nee Thomas. First name Elet, Alet or varient by census
There is this family which I think connects, most of the sons are b Roch, Pembrokeshire
1861 - Swansea
Piece 4100, Folio 27, Page number 17
Benjamin Thomas 72 Head
Elizabeth Thomas 56 Wife
Moses Thomas 21 Son
Benjamin Thomas 17 Son
Elias Thomas 14 Son
Allette Thomas 11 Daughter
Edit to add - married William Griffiths
Name Elet Thomas
Registration Year 1869
Registration Quarter Apr-May-Jun
Registration District Swansea
Inferred County Glamorgan
Volume 11a Page 867
Cas
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Found her in 1841
Fishguard, Pembroke
Phebe Thomas 17 FS
Littice Thomas 7 lodger
Sister or half sister?
Phebe Thomas
Event Type Baptism
Birth Date 7 May 1824
Birth Place Brawdy, Pembrokeshire, Wales
Baptism Date 13 Jun 1824
Baptism Place Brawdy, Pembrokeshire, Wales
Denomination Independent Or Congregational
Father Benjamn Thomas
Mother Ann Thomas
Ann nee Charles, his first wife - married 1810
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/PEM/Brawdy
1841 for Benjamin & family lot more older children, living Brawdy. 1851 family in Swansea.
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Hi Cas
Excellent stuff. I confess, my head hurts a little now so bed probably calls. Your research has been great. I will look to see if I can find further evidence on Benjamin - e.g. to see if Ann Thomas died and when Benjamin married Elizabeth.
Again, thank you!
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Very well found Cas. Definite round of applause due👏👏
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Thanks both - visitors can often be family connections
There is also this 1851 that may be a better fit for Lettice
1851 - Swansea
David Walters 26 Head, grocer, Neath
Sarah Walters 29 Wife
David G Walters 2 Son
Thomas W Walters 2 Son
Lettice Thomas 16 Servant, Pembrokeshire
There was a Walters that witnessed the 1857 marriage, but maybe no connection
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Not finding a suitable marriage online between Benjamin & Elizabeth in area, maybe they did not marry? Also considered she may have married previously or had children with another.
Think this baptism may relate to Elizabeth. Some younger children post reg have mothers MS as Nicholas.
Transcript only, no image - maybe try familysearch ?
Elizabeth James
[Elizabeth Nicholas]
Baptism Date 09 Oct 1808
Baptism Place Brawdy, Pembroke,Wales
Father James Nicholas
Mother Alet
FHL Film Number 105130
Not sure if she is illegitimate and her mother is surname James? Maybe her father went by both names? I did think of Patronymics, but ruled it out as a bit late.
Also in 1841 there was a Francis James age 1 in household with family. Did not find him under surname James, but there is this possible. No mothers name listed.
NICHOLAS, FRANCIS -
GRO Reference: 1840 J Quarter in HAVERFORDWEST Volume 26 Page 619
Cannot be hers as was having Thomas children around this time. Possibly just a family member if any relation.
Bit of a complicated family
Cas
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Found the marriage. I have a South & West Wales marriage index 1813 - 1837
1827 1 Nov - Benjamin THOMAS Wid, Farmer - Elizabeth NICHOLAS at Brawdy PEM
So looks like first wife Ann died between 1824 - 1827 1826 - 1827
Still not finding marriage online
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1841 Brawdy
If access - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/8979/records/14355531
Benjamin Thomas 45
Elizabeth Thomas 30
John Thomas 20
Edward Thomas 14 ( this is Ann son, bapt for him online)
Ann Thomas 12
Eliza Thomas 9
Elias Thomas 4
Moses Thomas 2
Francis James 1
1851 - Swansea
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/8861/records/15636783
Benjamin Thomas 55 Head
Elizabeth Thomas 45 Wife
Moses Thomas 10 Son
Jane Thomas 8 Daughter
Elias Thomas 6 Son. (Looks like the Elias in 1841 died or was grandchild?)
Margaret Thomas 6 Daughter
Benjamin Thomas 3 Son
Alletta Thomas 1 Daughter
Not checked all for mother's maiden Nicholas on GRO
Cas
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Hi Cas
That's brilliant, thanks. I'm just doing gchild duties at mo. Will look in more detail as this part of my family tree is "productive" - you can tell Benjamin and his two wives had little to do in the evenings.
A question though, how is it that you can find the marriage but when I go on ancestry it doesn't come up on searches?
I'll come back with some more stuff on Benjamin's 15 children (which I fear may be wrong but can't prove anything yet!)
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I have a South & West Wales marriage index 1813 - 1837, I bought years ago when not a lot was online. The marriage was from there. I cannot find it online either.
It looks like the parish of Brawdy is lacking in online records. Not finding a death for Ann.
Edward was Ann last child before death 1826 - 1827
Edward Thomas
Event Type Baptism
Birth Date 22 Oct 1826
Birth Place Brawdy, Pembrokeshire, Wales
Baptism Date 6 Nov 1826
Baptism Place Brawdy, Pembrokeshire, Wales
Denomination Independent Or Congregational
Father Benj Thomas
Mother Ann Thomas
Looks like Benjamin & Elizabeth in 1871
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/7618/records/7084066
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Just located the baptism and marriage for Elizabeth Nicholas on freereg
https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_queries/68ed5033b620e0b9f99e529a?locale=en
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Hi Cas
Your info is great, thanks again.
I seem to have Benjamin and Anne with seven children
- Mary 1813
William 1815 (I have copy of the register entry)
Mary? 1817
John 1821
James 1822 (parish register seen)
Phebe 1824 (parish register seen)
Edward 1826 (from your info already)
And then I have Benjamin and Elizabeth with eight and I can't find any birth records!
- Ann 1828
Lettice 1834
Moses 1840
Jane 1843
Benjamin 1844
Elias 1847
Margaret 1848
Allette 1850
I know it's a huge ask, but do you have any details on these?
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Do you have the GRO
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/indexes_search.asp
It is free to register and view index. It gives mothers maiden if married also ages at death in the early years they don't show on Freebmd.
Civil registration did not start until Sept 1837
To start off
THOMAS, MOSES mother's maiden NICHOLAS
GRO Reference: 1839 J Quarter in HAVERFORDWEST Volume 26 Page 603
Give it a go..
Birth and death certs can be purchased for £3 instant download, if wanted.
Also death for Benjamin looks to be Dec Q 1871 after census.
THOMAS, BENJAMIN age 83 (bc 1788)
GRO Reference: 1871 D Quarter in SWANSEA Volume 11A Page 408
Elizabeth I cannot find in 1881 few likely deaths in Swansea
Come back if stuck..someone here will help
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Mary 1813
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/2972/records/854964
Still looking for John...
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I don't think there is a 1817 Mary, that online tree has lots of errors. I think the 1841 below is the same they put 2 Mary with different dates no death info between them.
Possible 1841 - ages can be rounded down to nearest 5 in 1841. Also lots were illiterate.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/8979/records/14355525
You have details for John in census to know he was Benjamins son. Also marriage in 1849 in Camrose to Martha Mathias (if I remember right), names Benjamin, he was also a witness.
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Many thanks again Cas
You have also taught me how to obtain certificates for £3 rather than the £8 I've been paying!!
Just one final thing about Moses Thomas. I've got the birth you found in 1839 but I have still got a birth of another Moses Thomas in the parish records from 1830 for Brawdy with the parents being Benjamin Thomas (farmer) and Elizabeth. It looks like the official records are saying that they had two Moses. Here's the link
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/2972/images/40612_B0151348-00035?pId=855341
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Yes it does look like them. I cannot see two Moses as sons, the earlier one must have died.
There is census evidence with couple that the 2nd Moses was registered 1839.
Have you found all with maiden Nicholas? The more you use the GRO the easier it becomes as you learn to tweak to find info.
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Hi Cas
I'm getting the hang of it. The 1839 Moses has a mother's maiden of Nicholas. The earlier one's birth is before registration commenced but the details of the parents in the parochial record look right. I then had a look in family search for any deaths of a Moses Thomas; I found one in 1837 and thought it would be the one I was looking for but when I accessed GRO (my new best friend) I found that the child was only aged 1 when he died in 1837 so not mine.
I'm therefore stuck at the moment with two Moses and think it may have to stay that way.
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I think there is a period missing around this time.
No death for Ann either or marriage online. I would add him b 1830 died before 1839, if you think ok. Then the living moses in 1839.
Some do not add deceased babies, but I think it gives an overview of hardships families suffered.