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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: CassieP on Wednesday 08 October 25 13:13 BST (UK)
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Hi, please can anyone help me regarding the Find a Grave memorial for Arthur Charles Webb 1917 - 2007. I'm afraid it's a long story!
Arthur's Find a Grave memorial was passed to me for completion as I work on military memorials and it already had this information:
"Dunkirk veteran Burma Star, Royal Horse Artillery, 9th Argyle & Southern Highlanders, 82 WA Division, 142 Battery"
I always check as far as I possibly can that any details on a memorial are correct. Unfortunately the person who added this information to the memorial is not contactable - I guess no longer an active contributor to Find a Grave, so I am trying to find other ways of proving it is correct.
Here is my research so far ...
I checked with the cemetery that the name and dates for Arthur correspond with those on the Find a Grave memorial. Unfortunately they have no other details other than the ashes were collected by his family.
I made contact with a member of the Webb family who has Arthur on his family tree but he is unable to help.
I wrote to one of Arthur's two granddaughters 3 months ago but she has not responded. I have no contact details for the other granddaughter.
I sent for Arthur's marriage and death certificates and his marriage certificate does confirm that in 1941 he was a soldier. (I have tried unsuccessfully to attach the death and marriage certificates here!)
I searched in the British Newspaper archives - I was hoping to find an obituary, but am unable to find any mention of him.
No military records are coming up for him on Ancestry.
I searched on Find My Past in Royal Artillery Attestations 1883-1942. There is an Arthur Charles Webb listed with the service number 875756. The only details are "21.10.42 para 390 XV11 KR" which I think is Kings Regulations, discharged physically unfit. This could be "my" Arthur, but I'm unable to verify that.
If anyone has any ideas at all on how to proceed with this I'd be most grateful. If I am unable to prove Arthur's military details I will keep them on his memorial but noting that they are not verified.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/19495971/arthur-webb
Many thanks
Carole
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There's a Burma Star Association membership record for an Arthur Charles Webb (https://burmastarmemorial.org/archive/membership-records?search_tab_open=&q=Arthur+Charles+Webb&action=search&a%5Bmembership_no%5D%5Bv%5D=&a%5Bsurname%5D%5Bv%5D=&a%5Bchristian_names%5D%5Bv%5D=&a%5Bshipunit_during_the_burma_campaign%5D%5Bv%5D=&a%5Baddress_towncity%5D%5Bv%5D=&a%5Baddress_countystate%5D%5Bv%5D=&a%5Bcountry%5D%5Bv%5D=&a%5Byear_of_application%5D%5Bv%5D=1950&a%5Byear_of_application%5D%5Bv2%5D=2025&is_advanced=) but the details don't quite tie up with the ones on FindAGrave.
However if you think it might be the same person, you can see that he was an officer and has recorded his Army number* so you may be able to find entries for him in the London Gazette.
*the application form says 'Service' number but I expect scrimnet will be along soon to tell them that there's no such thing.
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The man who joined the Burma Star Association was commissioned on 14 Oct 1942. Extract from London Gazette Supplement 35794 page 5093 published 24 Nov 1942 is shown below.
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I think the reference to 82nd (West African) Division in both the FindAGrave details and the membership application to join the Burma Star Association are fairly conclusive that the latter is the man you are researching, despite the anomaly with the title of his battery. Therefore this article on 82 (WA) Div (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/82nd_(West_Africa)_Division) may be helpful in filling in the picture. 42 Mortar Regiment was not formed until 1 August 1944, in West Africa, before the whole Division moved to Burma, arriving there in Dec 1944. My guess is that Lt Arthur Charles Webb remained in the Far East until VJ day and probably returned to the UK in mid 1946.
Since he would have been aged 25 when he was commissioned, I suspect that the reference to the 9th Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders meant that he first joined that unit as a soldier (possibly once he reached 18 in 1935) but almost certainly before November 1938 because that was when the 9th Battallion A&SH was transferred to the Royal Artillery and became 58th* Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment, Royal Artillery. 58th LAA Regt went to France with the BEF in 1940. While he was serving in the 58th (LAA) Regt he was probably recommended for a commission and went off for officer training in early 1942. Between his commissioning and joining 42 Mortar Regt in West Africa in 1944 he may well have served with the Royal Horse Artillery.
I can suggest two ways of going forward. Firstly you can apply to the MOD for his service record - details of how to do that here (https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-records-of-service/apply-for-the-records-of-a-deceased-serviceperson). Ignore any comments about applying to the National Archives - that's for soldiers' records. Officers' records are not currently due to be moved to TNA. This is by far the better option if you are after personal details. The down side is that it costs £30.
Secondly if you can get to the National Archives, you could search the war diaries of 42 Mortar Regt (https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C953978) for the period Jan - Sep 1945 (plus 1946 if required (https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C955712)) to get some detail about what the unit did in Burma. As an officer, it is quite likely that he will get a mention or two by name.
I wouldn't bother with Army Lists or trawling through the London Gazette unless you really have nothing better to do, as all that you will learn is when he was promoted to full lieutenant (my guess would be 18 months after commissioning) and when he left the Army - again I would guess this would have been 1946 when he was de-mobbed. If you get his service record all these details will be there anyway.
*There is a discrepancy in some of the records I have found about whether the unit was initially numbered 54 or 58. A couple of sources (eg here (https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1500014856)) say the new regiment was 54th Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment. However I can't find anything in the Royal Artillery records for a Regiment of that name, only 58th (there is a London based 54th Heavy Anti-Aircraft Regiment but it's definitely not the same one). Possibly a call to the Argylls' Museum (https://argylls.co.uk/) could resolve the issue.
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Hello Andy
Thank you so much for your very kind help and for taking the time to research my enquiry. This is amazing information which I will take my time looking through.
Many thanks again and best wishes
Carole
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Hi Andy
Just found that Arthur's wife Ethel Myrtle Webb nee Glenister passed away in 2001 in Canterbury, Kent - and Arthur's address on the Burma Star Association application is Bridge, Canterbury, Kent!
Carole
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I've just put 2 and 2 together. In your original post you said you had found a Royal Artillery enlistment for a man with the number "875756. The only details are "21.10.42 para 390 XV11 KR" "
I should have checked before but King's Regs para 390 xvii does not mean a soldier has been discharged as unfit; it means discharged from soldier service on commissioning. The register confirms my guess that he joined up in 1937. Also in the attestations register there is the annotation 11 RHA. This suggests that he was in 11th Regiment RHA immediately before his officer training, and not after as I suggested earlier. 11 RHA was one of several new units formed from the Honourable Artillery Company in London. 11 RHA deployed to North Africa in Dec 1941, but I suspect Arthur would have come back to the UK around Easter 1942 to start his officer training.
Some more on 11 RHA here (https://ra39-45.co.uk/units/royal-horse-artillery/11-royal-horse-artillery-honourable-artillery-companyta) and here (https://www.ww2talk.com/index.php?threads/11th-r-h-a.50033/). The regiment was equipped with the M7 Priest 105mm self propelled howitzer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M7_Priest).
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Hello Andy
Many thanks for your last message and for all the work you have put into my enquiry, I am very grateful. I think I have enough for the purposes of Arthur's Find a Grave memorial - but it is tempting to apply for his service record!
Kind regards
Carole
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Hi Carole, It's been fun researching him. It is just a shame that the grandchildren don't seem to be interested. I can't help thinking that that is one of the downsides of cremation - a memorial doesn't have quite the same evocation of the person as does a grave and grave marker. His ashes were presumably scattered elsewhere.
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Hi Andy
I think you are like me when it comes to this research ... like a dog with a bone! It is very satisfying to get to the bottom of Arthur's military history, but would be even better if I could contact a relative to find out personal things about his life. His death certificate shows he was a theatre manager later in life and sounds such an interesting person, there will be so much more to be said about him than I can find in online records.
I had a quick look at applying for service records from the MOD. When I sent for those of my father and uncle a few years ago, they were I think only available to next of kin. I had to get my uncle's daughter in the USA to sign the application - as it is, she was interested to see them too so there was no problem. It looks now that you don't need to be next of kin and perhaps this is because they are becoming available in the National Archives. I can't find that Arthur's are in the National Archives unfortunately and the MOD warn that it takes about a year for applications to them to be processed.
Please can I ask one more favour! Can you confirm I am correct in referring to Arthur as Lieutenant Arthur Charles Webb, Royal Artillery?
Many thanks
Carole
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Hi Carole,
Yes, the form of address is correct.
As for his officer service record, you won't find it at TNA because there are currently no plans to transfer officers' records to them. This means that since the MOD now have fewer soldiers' records to deal with, processing officers' documents may be speedier than previously. Also officers' documentation was handled by separate sections of the MOD to the soldier records, which may also help speed up the process. I am not sure if his officer records will include his former soldier service details. If not, you could do a (free) FoI request to TNA for his soldier records using his number 875756. We have no idea of his rank before he was commissioned (not that it is necessary since you have his Army number) but I wouldn't be surprised if he was a bombardier (Corporal).
The theatre manager detail is interesting. Only so many theatres in the South East!
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Hi Andy
Thanks for the confirmation.
Yes the theatre manager occupation is fascinating, and I wonder if it was a West End theatre!
Carole
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Canterbury (assuming that is where he was then living) is quite a commute to the West End. Also, can you give me his address on his death certificate, which I assume was in Surrey?
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I found a bit more detail about Arthur.
He is listed (along with Myrtle who had died in December 2001) in the 2002 electoral register at Flat 4, Higham Lane, Canterbury, CT4 5AY. This is substantially the same address as he gave when applying to join the Burma Star Association in May 1982, namely Flat 4, Bridge Hill House, Higham Lane, Bridge, Canterbury, Kent. Since he would have been aged 65 in 1982 I think it’s reasonable to assume that he and Myrtle remained at that address until her death, and sometime after 2002 he moved to Surrey, either to be nearer to his son Charles or to go into a home or sheltered housing as he would have been aged 84 in early 2002.
The other development is finding two cuttings from the Bedford Record dated April and May 1958 which mention an Arthur Webb as manager of the Royal County Theatre. One article also mentions that he was previously an actor with the Northamptonshire Repertory Company. The Royal County Theatre closed in 1960 and so presumably he was out of job. Today the theatre building is the Mount Zion Pentecostal Church. You can see a photograph of the auditorium from its days as a 1960s bingo hall here on Flickr (https://www.flickr.com/photos/stagedoor/1065051623). According to one website “The Heritage Library at Bedford Central Library holds a collection of Royal County Theatre programmes 1940-58”. Also, Bedfordshire Archives has at least one theatre programme (https://bedsarchivescat.bedford.gov.uk/Details/archive/110669963) from 1959. A much earlier 1948 programme, for sale on a theatrical memorabilia site, shows that Arthur was not the manager ten years earlier. Some of the productions when Arthur was manager are listed here (https://theatricalia.com/place/49t/royal-county-theatre-bedford-bedford).
It appears that the Northamptonshire Repertory Company no longer exists today and I haven’t found any mention of Arthur in connection with them.
If you have access to Ancestry, it might been worth checking their electoral register catalogue for Bedfordshire in the 1950s to see if he and Myrtle were living in the area. I have no idea where they might have been and what Arthur was doing between 1960 and 1982.
And lastly for this update, I am wondering if he was in the Preston area in 1941 where he met and married Myrtle. According to the timeline I linked to earlier (https://ra39-45.co.uk/units/royal-horse-artillery/11-royal-horse-artillery-honourable-artillery-companyta) 11 RHA were in the Surrey/Berkshire area in 1941, so perhaps he was still with 58th LAA Regt at the time he married. Does his marriage certificate give a unit and or address for him? A plausible explanation may be that Myrtle was working away from home, near where he was stationed and they just returned to her parents home for the wedding. Her occupation in September 1939 was professional dancer (travel) so maybe she had joined ENSA (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entertainments_National_Service_Association) at the start of the war and was visting the troops.
Incidentally, FindMyPast has copies of the Honourable Artillery Company (HAC) Journal for the period 1923-2021, but Arthur Webb is not mentioned anywhere within the journals. 11 RHA was formed from the HAC
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Last few crumbs for today.
Having said I couldn't find any mention of Arthur in connection with the Northants Repertory Company, I now have three, one of which leads us off in another direction. In August 1949 the Stage reported that former Northants Rep actor Arthur Webb was now the licensee of the Wheatsheaf Inn, Weedon, Northants.
And another cutting from May 1958 - this time the Stage again - refers to Arthur as the front of house manager at the Royal County.
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I think this is her, father W. A. Glenister
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Thank you so very much Andy and willsy, I am overwhelmed by all this fabulous information you have found! Crumbs??? A whole three tiered cake I'd say!!! I had a feeling that Arthur had an interesting life, and so he had. How interesting he worked at BBC Midlands as I'm from the Midlands (Worcestershire). The article with the photograph of Myrtle is just incredible and her photograph is gorgeous. Wow! Just ... wow!!
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Hi Carole,
I spent about an hour today on Ancestry in my local library, trying to find Arthur and Myrtle in the Bedfordshire Electoral registers for the 1950s, without success. Basically none of the Arthur C Webb entries were him, and there were far too many Arthur Webbs to search them all. A search on 'Arthur Webb' with 'Myrtle' as the optional detail, and 'Myrtle E Webb' on her own also provided no leads. Of course the fact he was working in Bedford in 1958 doesn't mean that he had to be living in the county, so he might equally have been living in Northants since he was previously with their repertory company.
The only thing of interest that I did find was that in the 1921 Census when he was shown as aged 4 years exactly, and living with his parents in his maternal grandfather's home at 84 Duke Street, Chelmsford. His grandfather (Albert Arthur Barnaschina) was a public house manager - perhaps a foreshadowing of Arthur becoming a licensee in 1949.
Incidentally there is a family tree on Ancestry (the Webb family tree) which includes some basic details (dates of births, marriage, deaths) for Arthur and Myrtle but which otherwise I would say was unreliable - for instance it had Arthur in an isolation hospital in Gravesend with the trade of engineer, based on a random entry in the 1939 register, just because the other Arthur Webb was born in 1917. Obviously we know that 'our' Arthur was probably already embodied at that point and therefore wouldn't show up the Register.
Do you have any thoughts on his son Charles W having his birth registered in Hampstead in 1950?
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This is quite irrelevant to your original query, but I am fairly sure that Arthur's wife ran the village playgroup attended by my children and generations of others in the area!
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Hi Andy
Yes I can answer how Charles William Webb came to be born in Hampstead. The London electoral register has Myrtle Ethel Webb and Arthur Charles Webb living at 4 Downing Court, Grenville Street, WC1 from 1949 - 1953.
I came across that "unreliable" Webb family tree on Ancestry and got in touch with the owner when I first started researching Arthur. He was unable to help.
Carole
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This is quite irrelevant to your original query, but I am fairly sure that Arthur's wife ran the village playgroup attended by my children and generations of others in the area!
Thanks!
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"And lastly for this update, I am wondering if he was in the Preston area in 1941 where he met and married Myrtle. According to the timeline I linked to earlier (https://ra39-45.co.uk/units/royal-horse-artillery/11-royal-horse-artillery-honourable-artillery-companyta) 11 RHA were in the Surrey/Berkshire area in 1941, so perhaps he was still with 58th LAA Regt at the time he married. Does his marriage certificate give a unit and or address for him? A plausible explanation may be that Myrtle was working away from home, near where he was stationed and they just returned to her parents home for the wedding. Her occupation in September 1939 was professional dancer (travel) so maybe she had joined
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Hi Andy
I'm sorry I missed answering your question about Arthur's marriage (so much information to go through!). For some strange reason the system is not allowing me to send the death and marriage certificates even though they are Jpeg. Here is a "snip" from the marriage certificate.
Carole
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Thanks Carole.
The Normanshire Drive address in Chingford seems to be a deadend. I thought it might be where his parents were living at the time, but based on the 1939 Register, there was no Webb family there in 1939. However there about 20 houses which come up with no occupant recorded. In fact it looks like Arthur's father Joseph Webb, master tailor, may have been living in Fulham at the time.
I note that Ethel is being a little economical with the truth over her age, considering that she was born 6 Oct 1913.
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I note that Ethel is being a little economical with the truth over her age, considering that she was born 6 Oct 1913.
Theatrical artists license! :D