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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: mabb1009 on Saturday 04 October 25 17:55 BST (UK)
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I am wondering if anyone can help me with a family project?
My Grandfather served with the 148th battery from 1915 until wounded in action in 1917. In Feb 1915 he was billeted in Lytham st Annes before moving on to Fleetwood and then shipping out to Alexandria. I am trying to contextualise his war time diary and am looking for any information that can help me pull the pieces together. I have found a site called amoundness.co.uk that mentions the 148th briefly but that is all i can find.
Any help would be much appreciated.
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Hello & welcome
Can I say first that there was no 148th. Bty.
There was a 148th. Brigade which comprised of A,B,C & D Btys.
This was part of the 30th. Divisional Artillery.
Can we have more info. please.
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https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-royal-artillery-in-the-first-world-war/batteries-and-brigades-of-the-royal-field-artillery/cxlviii-cxlix-cl-and-cli-howitzer-brigades-30th-divisional-artillery/
Here you go.
These units were formed in 1915 and are sometimes known as 148, 149, 150 and 151 Brigades RFA.
By February 1915 Lord Derby Derby had obtained from the War Office permission to raise the four artillery units required as part of a complete division. They would soon enough be granted the formal titles of the 148th to 151st Brigades of the Royal Field Artillery and were all sub-titled “County Palatine”. The brigades were established at Lytham St. Annes where they began training largely without proper uniform, equipment, transport or accommodation. It took several weeks for the full complement of men to be attracted to them. Each of the four brigades was essentially made up of men from a particular area but it is clear from the surviving service records that there was a certain amount of blurring.
CXLVIII (County Palatine)
This brigade joined 30th Division at Grantham by 13 August 1915. It comprised A, B, C and D Batteries, each of four 18-pounder field guns. You can see details of its battles and movements on the page describing the division https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/30th-division/
On 16 May 1916 the Brigade’s Ammunition Column left to be merged into 30th Divisional Ammunition Column.
On 21 May 1916 D Battery left and joined 151 Brigade as its A Battery. It was replaced by the arrival of A (Howitzer) Battery from 151 Brigade, which was then renamed as D (Howitzer) Battery.
On 25-26 August 1916 C Battery was broken up, and its two-gun sections joined A and B Batteries to bring them up to six guns each. A Battery joined from 151 Brigade and became 148 Brigade’s C Battery.
On 2 January 1917 a two-howitzer section joined from D (Howitzer) Battery of 150 Brigade and was added to D (Howitzer) Battery.
If he went to Egypt and not France then he must have transferred after Lythan St Annes because 148 went to France.
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Hi,
Thank you for the replies and the info. That would be my fault. My grandfather quotes in his diary "26th Feb (1915) - today, I am officially 2056 Gnr (presumably Gunner?) John Brown, D Sub, b battery, 148th Brigade"
That was my oversight. He also states that by May they had moved to Fleetwood?
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Yes Gunner.
The unit designation (name) would generally be a Troop, then the larger Battery and then Brigade. The RA 'Brigade' would be classed as a 'Regiment' nowadays.
2056 is his regimental number and would be engraved on is medals.
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Lytham Times, 5 Mar 1915
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The Lytham Times ran a column entitled "Bits about the Troops".
Added - Apologies, a belated but nonetheless very warm welcome to Rootschat
24 Sep 1915
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HT, I have tried and failed to find any mention of the 148th being at/moving to Fleetwood.
How about you?
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His 15 Star Roll entry states he went overseas 26/12/1915 whereas his Div. (30th.)
went the previous month also the theatre of war entered was listed as "3" Egypt.
The 30th. Div. were in France.
Does the diary clarify this.
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HT, I have tried and failed to find any mention of the 148th being at/moving to Fleetwood.
How about you?
AB,
Fleetwood did not figure if I recall correctly. I remember the Lytham Times, Friday 13 Aug 1915, had an item about the 148, 149, 150 and 151 at a new camp at Grantham (Belton Park). The same edition had an item where the band of the 148th had been in Lytham entertaining the crowd the previous Sunday.
I had used a range of search keys (plenty of "less is more") but had had to park further search because "chores" reared their ugly head. Yet to chase beyond Aug 1915.
regards
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The Blackpool Gazette, 13 Aug 1915, has an item about the move to Grantham.
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Hi all,
Sorry you are going to have to forgive me. I am delicately reading a handwritten pencil diary. You can imagine how ornate his writing was.
As for my Grandfather, he states he left Lytham on 1st May to go to Fleetwood. He states he was there until (hard to see) 20th July whereby they left Fleetwood. On arrival there his Battery & Brigade changed to A battery, 165th Brigade. On 20th July left Fleetwood to head for Bedale (Yorkshire?). They left there by train sometime in August and went to Leicester. He then mentions Haytesbury(?). By December they were in Plymouth whereby they set sail on the Nitonian. However by 25th Dec they had landed in Port Said, Egypt.
Without going on and on it seems that by 1916 (March 11th) they diembarked on the SS Ivernia(sorry, I can't be sure thats the correct name of the ship) and were sent to France. Exactly where I cannot be sure due to his ornate handwritting. He does say "I got my first parcel in France - March 16th)
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Without going on and on it seems that by 1916 (March 11th) they diembarked on the SS Ivernia(sorry, I can't be sure thats the correct name of the ship) and were sent to France. Exactly where I cannot be sure due to his ornate handwritting. He does say "I got my first parcel in France - March 16th)
Yes that sounds correct: Originally she was RMS Ivernia and became HMT Ivernia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RMS_Ivernia_(1899)#British_troopship) after she was requistioned from Cunard for war service. She was sunk by a German submarine in January 1917. There's a picture of her in the Wikipedia article.
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I noticed the "165th at Fleetwood" at some point today when checking newspapers eg. -
Lancashire Evening Post, 1 Jun 1915
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Preston Herald, 21 Aug 1915
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Reply #11 mentions "Haytesbury?"
Blackburn Weekly Telegraph, 18 Sep 1915
Note - if you click on the attachment name (7RFA) it might deliver an image that allows you to zoom in.
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Hello Hanes,
Thank you so much for the image. I really cannot believe my eyes. I am not 100% but am pretty certain that the gentleman knelt down on the left (glasses and pipe) is actually my grandfather. I need to be 100% sure so I am going to take it to my uncle (his son) who is 96. I know he has a photo of my grandfather outside his house in Lancashire also knelt down with glasses and pipe with the family dog shortly after he returned home. My goodness, if it is not him, it is an uncanny likeness.
Wow!
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There are wizards on this site at enhancing photos, including items snipped from newspapers. Wondered what they might come up with?
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Hello everyone,
I would just like to say a massive thank you to all of you for the information that you have sent me. I spoke with my uncle and brother tonight and whilst we have no way to actually confirm it we are all of the same opinion - we all agree that that is my grandfather on the left.
If you have anymore information please let me have it - the info so far has been invaluable.
Thank you so much
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Checking out Heytesbury it seems the RFA were associated with an artillery camp at Knook - set up 1914.
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Your Grandfather would have gone into the 32nd. Div. when
he transferred to the 165 Bde.
This is what the LLT says:
In late November 1915 the 31st. Division received a warning order to prepare to sail for France. Advance parties began to depart. But on 2 December final orders were received that the Division would go to Egypt, accompanied by the artillery of 32nd Division. Its own artillery would join 32nd Division in France. The advanced parties were recalled and the Division sailed from 7 December, with Divisional HQ being established at Port Said on Christmas Eve. The last units arrived in Egypt on 23 January 1916.
It seems that by March 1916 the Bde. returned to the 32nd. Div. in France.
32nd. Div. involved in:
1916
The Battle of Albert*
The Battle of Bazentin*
The Battle of the Ancre*
* the battles marked * are phases of the Battles of the Somme 1916
1917
Operations on the Ancre
The pursuit of the German retreat to the Hindenburg Line
1918
The First Battle of Arras, a phase of the First Battles of the Somme 1918
The Battle of Amiens
The Battle of Albert^
The Battle of Bapaume^
^ the battles marked ^ are phases of the Second Battles of the Somme 1918
The Battle of the St Quentin Canal+
The Battle of Beaurevoir+
+ the battles marked + are phases of the Battles of the Hindenburg Line
The Battle of the Sambre, including the passge of the Oise-Sambre Canal, a phase of the Final Advance in Picardy
165 Bde. war diary is available from TNA as a free download.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01u1x/
I'm just looking at it now.
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Lancashire Evening News, 17 Mar 1916
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A correction to my previous post.
I've just discovered by reading both diaries(31st. & 32nd. Div.) that
the divisional Artillery that swapped divisions swapped back when the 31st. arrived in France in March 1916.
So 165 Bde. was back with the 31st. by the time of the Somme Offensive.
Fortunately the 31st. Div. Diary gives accurate positions of the Bty's.
31st. Div:
1916
The Division took over the No 3 Sector of the Suez Canal defences and Divisional HQ moved to Kantara on 23 January. The stay in Egypt was short, and between 1-6 March the Division sailed to Marseilles for service on the Western Front. The 31st Division subsequently remained in France and Flanders and took part in these actions:
The Battle of Albert* including the attack on Serre
The Battle of the Ancre*
* the battles marked * are phases of the Battles of the Somme 1916
1917
Operations on the Ancre
The Third Battle of the Scarpe**
The Capture of Oppy Wood**
** the battles marked ** are phases of the Arras Offensive 1917
1918
The Battle of St Quentin^
The Battle of Bapaume^
The First Battle of Arras^
^ the battles marked ^ are phases of the First Battles of the Somme 1918
The Battle of Estaires^^
The Battle of Hazebrouck^^
The Defence of Nieppe Forest^^
The attack at La Becque^^
^^ the battles marked ^^ are phases of the Battles of the Lys
The capture of Vieux Berquin+
+ the battles marked + are phases of the Advance in Flanders
The Battle of Ypres++
The action of Tieghem++
++ the battles marked ++ are phases of the Final Advance in Flanders
The Division’s advance across Flanders continued on 9 November when units forced a crossing of the River Scheldt. At the time when the Armistice came into effect, 11am on 11 November, the advanced units had reached Everbecque and the River Dender.
The Division moved back to the Arques-Blendecques are and here men began to be demobilised. The Division ceased to exist on 20 May 1919.
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Hi everyone, thank you for all the amazing info. I am flying through it and it has all been amazingly helpful. I am really sorry but I need to ask you guys another question, if I may?
My grandfather notes in his diary that on the 5th April 1915 at Lytham Green he had his first official military review and all the Brigades were inspected by Lord Derby (of which I have found quite a bit) and a General Perrot ( I am assuming it is Perrot but again his handwriting, and it being in pencil it is hard to read. However, I cannot find anything of a General Perrot from WW1. The name seems to me to be French but again, I could be wrong.
Do you guys have any information about him or if it is not him, who exactly it might be?
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There was a Captain William H W Perrott RA in the Army in 1896 and a Lt Col Thomas Perrot RA in the same year, but Thomas Perrott was commissioned in 1868 and so would have been in his mid 60s in 1915, so he seems a less likely candidate.
Of course the inspecting officer didn't need to be a Gunner; he might have been the local District General Officer Commanding (GOC).
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Fleetwood Express, 17 Apr 1915
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The above item continues ...
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His feet couldn't have touched the ground that April - he was inspecting troops everywhere. Photos of him inspecting but not the troops at Lytham.
There's a Wiki item - he retired the same year.
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Here's the Wikipedia article hanes teulu referred to: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Perrott