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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Bedfordshire => Topic started by: Norfolk Nan on Tuesday 30 September 25 12:35 BST (UK)
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Hi, I'm missing the baptism, and therefore parents, of Samuel Norman who says in the 1841-1871 census he was born in Woburn c1801. I've exhausted my ideas so any help, as always, gratefully received.
There is one more Norman in the village - Joseph, says born c1805 in Woburn - but I can't find that either. Both men have sons called William, if that's useful.
Thank you.
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Had you discounted?
FindMyPast Baptism (transcript only)
Samuel Norman, 6 Dec 1801, Ridgmont All Saints, parents Edward and Elizabeth?
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According to Family Search this Samuel died in 1920 so he can't be 'mine'. Pity, I thought I had him... thanks for looking ;D
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A Samuel Norman married 1822 at Husborne Crawley - midway 'twixt Woburn and Ridgmont. So, a good qualifier for the Ridgmont baptism.
FindMyPast has the baptismal records (transcripts only) for St Mary's, Parish Church, Woburn that cover the period you are interested in. Were the images on line it would be possible to browse the period in case there had been an error in transcription/damage to original.
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+ a SAM Norman bapt 26 Oct 1800 St Swithin, Sandy to JN and MARY
1801 bapt is on FreeREG also to Edward/Elizabeth
Aaah Sandy Samuel is unmarried 1851 Census.
1831 info from Genuki;
"RIDGMONT, a parish in the hundred of REDBORNESTOKE, County of BEDFORD, 3¼ miles (north-east) from Woburn, containing 810 inhabitants.
Also on FreeREG;
Marriage;
Elizabeth GARRET
Edward NORMAN 02 Jul 1797 All Saints, Ridgmont
Edwards abode Houghton Conquest
Bapts of; Mary 1799/Samuel 1801/John 1803/Ann 1805/Sarah 1808/Lissey 1810
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Well typed that all up for nothing ;D
All good!
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Willington bapt to HENRY/JUDITH also
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According to Family Search this Samuel died in 1920 so he can't be 'mine'. Pity, I thought I had him... thanks for looking ;D
He died 1826
Debra :)
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Hello everyone
Yep, the Ridgmont sadly died before 'my' Woburn Samuel so it's not him.
The Willington birth of 1801 died in 1808.
My Samuel married Mary Dawborn in Woburn in 1828, there was nothing that said he was a widower.
I have a hard copy of the Woburn PRs up to 1812 and I've scoured them - the last Norman baptism prior to the 1830s at this church seems to be a Sarah, parents William and Martha. That William dies shortly after and the last Woburn marriage is 1785 when Martha marries again. I've looked at FS and Ancestry for later events - no obvious joy.
I've looked at non-conformist records but nothing popped up.
Thanks for looking - either the family stopped baptising or changed churches or went elsewhere. Another of life's mysteries ;D
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There appear to be 3 possible birth's for Samuel/Sam Norman c 1801 +/- 2 years Bedfordshire.
1. 1800--Sandy-Parents John/Mary----appears 1851/61 census born Sandy--unmarried--1871 Biggleswade Union Workhouse--believe died 1876 Biggleswade
2. 1801-- Willington-Parents Henry/Judith----transcript --died 1808 Willington(son of Henry & Judith)
3. 1801--Ridgmont--Parents Edward/Elizabeth--died 1882 St Neot's
SS
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Hi SS,
I'm very interested in the Ridgemont option you've quoted. My chap died in St Neots - he went to live with his son when he became a widower - but I'd discounted that birth because Famiky Search suggested that individual had died in the 1820s.
I think I ought to have a closer look based on that info you've offered - can you tell me where it came from?
Thank you ;D
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Do you have access to FindMyPast
SS
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No, not now...
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First name(s) Samuel
Father's first name(s) Edward
Last name Norman
Father's last name Norman
Sex Male
Mother's first name(s) Elizabeth
Baptism year 1801
Record set Bedfordshire Baptisms
Baptism date 06 Dec 1801
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Place Ridgmont
Subcategory Parish Baptisms
County Bedfordshire
Collections from England, Great Britain
Country England
SS
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Thanks, I've got that - how did you link it to the St Neots death?
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Believe Samuel had a brother named John c1803 Ridgmont. Appears with wife in 1861 census with a daughter named Truth.
NORMAN, TRUTH ELIZABETH mmn GURNEY
GRO Reference: 1846 J Quarter in WOBURN UNION Volume 06 Page 132
Marriages Dec 1844
GURNEY Elizabeth Woburn 6 221--- father Joseph Gurney
NORMAN John Woburn 6 221---father Edward Norman
SS
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Thank you so much. I will go back and check out that FS death again but its looking good.
Thank you again ;D
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I feel awful about this but I was right the first time - Edward and Elizabeth had many children baptised at Ridgmont including Samuel, John and Richard. They are all buried at Husborne Crawley, Samuel in 1826 so he cant be mine. What a shame. I thought you'd cracked it, SS. :-\
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I feel awful about this but I was right the first time - Edward and Elizabeth had many children baptised at Ridgmont including Samuel, John and Richard. They are all buried at Husborne Crawley, Samuel in 1826 so he cant be mine. What a shame. I thought you'd cracked it, SS. :-\
How do you evidence that is the son of Edward & Elizabeth??
There is a marriage of a Samuel Norman in 1822 Husborne Crawley to Mary Arnold, it could be his death in 1826!
In the 1851 census John Norman son of Edward & Elizabeth has his mother aged 78 born Ridgmont living in his household. Also to note is John & Richards baptisms are registered in Ridgmont but they in census records record pob Husborne Crawley.
SS
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Yes, that's the marriage but my Samuel married Mary Dawborn, not Mary Arnold. Unfortunately for me, they married in 1828 before civil registration so I've no clue who his parents are, hence the quest for his baptism.
Looking at the Woburn PRs there are a fair number of Norman events up to 1785 and then nothing. I wonder if a chapel or some other religious group came into the area and the Normans joined them. They didn't pop up in a search of non-conformist registers on Ancestry but I haven't given up.
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I appreciate that "your" Samuel married in 1828 but how do you know the 1826 death is the son of Edward & Elizabeth.
SS
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Sorry, I misunderstood your point -
I came across Edward's grave on Find a Grave site - it popped up as a hint so I clicked on it. Amongst other things it lists those three sons - John, Richard and Samuel - and if you click on Samuel it states that he is also buried there and when he died, and ditto for the other two and for his wife, Elizabeth. It sort of tied it all up in a nice package.
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Ok fair enough.
SS
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Disappointing though, I thought you'd cracked it. Ancestry was suggesting his parents came from Suffolk. That man's Samuel grew up in Suffolk and was there long after mine was in Woburn - there's just no sense to it!
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There is one more Norman in the village - Joseph, says born c1805 in Woburn
Another Norman in Woburn - Ann Bodsworth!
In 1851 she is 43, born Woburn
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGCC-X4R
Marriage at Woburn, 12 November 1837
John Bodsworth, father Thomas
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Ann Norman, father George
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QP3R-L32Z
For what it's worth, Samuel & Mary Norman did have a son George baptised at Woburn in 1833.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J3V3-53P
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Thank you - that's a useful catch. Will Ann provide the vital clue? Watch this space ;D
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Was George Samuel Norman's first son?
From Bedfordshire Archives catalogue
Indictments & presentments: George Norman, George Bullock, William Sinfield, George Birtchnall, John Coleman, all of Woburn, labourers - For throwing fireworks into the street on November 5th.
Date 1817
https://bedsarchivescat.bedford.gov.uk/Details/archive/110693542
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Throw in a couple of burials at Woburn..
Henry Norman, 17 August 1813, looks like an infant
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QP7Q-FV35
Unnamed Norman, 30 January 1816
Age 2
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QPH5-PJ9W
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Having looked at findagrave re burials I must confess to not being convinced that the sons are all buried there. I think that a third party has entered those, am always ready to be corrected. Why does your Samuel always put pin as Woburn
SS
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Thanks for your thoughts both -
jonwrrn - George is the first I've found, born 1833 but the couple married in 1828 so the is probably more. And thanks for the extras - I've been focused on Samuel's birth, wondering if he was Thomas's sibling and haven't thought about later events.
Softly Softly - I wish I knew but have to assume it's correct until we can show it's not. And for what it's worth, I know so many people in my tree (and my own son) are a bit vague about place of birth.
Thanks for your efforts both ;D
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Samuel Normans marrying a Mary within a narrow timeframe in the same locale certainly muddies the waters. After posting replies #1 and #3 and checking out the 1920 (sic) burial at reply #2 I drew up the following time line -
FindMyPast baptisms and marriages (transcripts only available)
The parents in each baptism are a Samuel and Mary Norman. Father's occ. included where transcribed
Mar - Samuel Norman, bach and Mary Larman spin, 6 Dec 1819, Langford, St Andrew
Mar - Samuel Norman, 10 Jun 1822, Husborne Crawley and Mary Arnold, St Mary Magdalene/St James
Bap - George, 28 Jul 1822, Husborne Crawley, labourer, St Mary Magdalene/St James
Bap - Mary, 2 Nov 1823, residence Langford, labourer, Langford St Andrew
Bap - Thomas, 1 Jun 1823, residence Langford, labourer, Langford St Andrew
Bap - Edward, 31 Jul 1825, Husborne Crawley, labourer, St Mary Magdalene/St James
Mar - Samuel Norman, 27 Oct 1828 and Mary Dawborn, Woburn St Mary
Bap - Elizabeth, 6 Jun 1830, residence Woburn, labourer
Bap - Sarah Ann, 5 Nov 1831, residence Langford, labourer Langford St Andrew
Bap - Hannah, 15 Apr 1832, residence Langford, labourer, Langford St Andrew
Bap - George, 16 Jun 1833, Woburn, labourer, Woburn St Mary
Bap - Henery (sic), 17 Nov 1833, residence Langford, labourer, Langford St Andrew
Bap - William, 24 May 1835, Woburn, labourer, Woburn St Mary
Bap - Ann, 7 may 1837, Woburn, labourer, Woburn St Mary
Bap - George, 13 May 1838, residence Langford, labourer, Langford St Andrew
Bap - James, 25 Jan 1839, residence Union Workhouse Biggleswade, lab'r, Biggleswade St Andrew
Bap - Phoebe Fanny, 29 Sep 1839, labourer, Woburn St Mary
Bap - Hannah, 14 Mar 1841, residence Langford, labourer, Langford St Andrew
Bap - Joseph Thomas, 20 Nov 1842, Woburn, labourer, Woburn St Mary
Church names are useful when grouping.
The Husborne Crawley baptisms of Normans cease after 1825 probably (no guarantee) as a result of the death of Samuel, 1 Jun 1826, age 24, hubby of Mary Arnold. They appear to have named their 2nd child Edward which is a link (again no guarantee) to the baptism of Samuel, at Ridgmont, 6 Dec 1801, parents Edward/Elizabeth
The paucity of detail on these early baptisms generates speculation.
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Thank you for that detailed timeline, I'll need to give it some serious consideration! Thank you ;D
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Hi.
Samuel could have married twice to a Mary as ....Husborne Crawley 19 june 1826 there is a burial of Mary Norman age 25. That could be Mary Arnold as a first wife. However that also lines with the Samuel death there the same year.
I have families in this area and they move between villages for work. I am not sure if others are lurking and records aren't on line.
Tazzie
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Taken from post 30#
Bap - Edward, 31 Jul 1825, Husborne Crawley, labourer, St Mary Magdalene/St James
Appears with "Arnold" grandparents Thomas & Elizabeth in 1841, and grandmother only in 1851. Were both parents deceased by 1841?
Bap - George, 28 Jul 1822, Husborne Crawley, labourer, St Mary Magdalene/St James, appears with grandparents Edward & Elizabeth Norman in 1841 census.
SS
added, the Samuel & Mary buried Husborn Crawley were buried 18 days apart in June 1826.
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Hi and thank you everyone for the very useful information provided and for the thoughts on this mystery. I just wanted to say I've been chewing it all over this weekend, doing more research and getting absolutely nowhere.
Until I can see the actual marriage cert for Samuel and Mary in 1828 to see if he was a widower, I am thinking he and the Ridgmont/Husborne Crawley/Houghton Conquest Samuel are two different people.
Thank you for pointing out more Normans - Ann, apparently born c1808 in Woburn and George, the firework throwing labourer who, according to court papers was 23 in 1817, so born c1794. There no baptisms for either person in Woburn. There is absolutely no Norman church activity after the late 1780s until the 1830s when Samuel begins baptising his family. I've looked at the non-conformist registers without luck.
I think I have found George in the 1851 census, living in St Pancras when lots of my family in this area headed. He was only working in Woburn when he was in court in 1817 but if I have the right man, he claims to have been born in Bow Brickhill which in Bucks but very nearby. He has a son called Samuel but while there are a lot of Normans in the village, there was no baptism for a George.
So, I'm going around in circles looking for the parents and baptisms for Samuel, Joseph, George and Ann, who, I suspect, are related somehow. I wish I knew how.
Thank you for all your help and ideas.
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Hi NN
Well done, great research.
There is a George Norman, labourer, in Bow Brickhill in the Buckinghamshire posse comitatus 1798
Also an Edward Norman.
Apparently it's now on ancestry
Buckinghamshire, England, Napoleonic Register: Posse Comitatus, 1798
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/62689/
Or as a large pdf here
https://www.bucksrecsoc.org.uk/BRS-VOLUMES/brs-vol-22.pdf
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Some baptisms at All Saints Bow Brickhill to George and Phoebe Norman
Also to an Edward and Elizabeth Norman
https://www.mkheritage.org.uk/bbh-files/visitorPages/registerPage.php?bookID=10&page=30&panel=transcript
You can use the arrows to go back or forward a page (not sure yet if there is an easier way to do this!)
They also have a possible George baptised 7 March 1794, transcribed as Harmon
I noticed that both your Samuel and Ann Bodsworth had daughters called Phoebe, I think born within a year or so of each other.
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You can search the site from here (I think this may be just for Bow Brickhill?)
https://www.mkheritage.org.uk/bbh-files/visitorPages/personSearch.php
Mind you, I would have missed the Harmon entry just using that!
Curiously there is
Burial 1801
Phyllis, Daughter of George & Phoebe Norman, buried February 4
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Hi, jonwrrn
Thank you for those links. The irony is that I lived in MK and was a stones throw from Woburn for years and did so much research on site. But of course there’s never enough information in family history, is there!
I've noticed the common names and think the George in the Posse Commitatus must be a dad because they only listed adults. Question is, whose? Joseph seems to be the odd one out, I think, which is a shame as I like to pair people up.
I'll keep beavering away
NN
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Hi
I think maybe there is no sign of George and Phoebe in those Bow Brickhill register transcriptions after the burial of Phyllis in 1801. They also had a daughter called Phyllis baptised in 1786 (buried same year)
Is there a baptism of a second Phyllis?
Anyway theoretically they could have moved to Woburn.
But then why no baptisms there?
The last baptism at BB may be daughter Phoebe, 22 May 1798.
A Phebe Norman, lacemaker, had an illegitimate son George David baptised there in 1822. Abode Bow Brickhill.
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One more thing..
Phoebe, daughter of George and Phoebe, baptised in 1798
She may have married a Bodsworth.
24 March 1828, Little Brickhill
David Bodsworth + Phoebe Norman
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:685N-2QK4
Just like Ann Norman in Woburn! I see that Ann's husband John says he was born in Little Brickhill.
Phoebe was a widow in 1851
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:685N-2QK4
he claims to have been born in Bow Brickhill which in Bucks but very nearby.
Yes, Woburn is so close to Bow Brickhill, and to Little Brickhill as well!
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It's coming together! I love it when it does. So satisfying.
I'll get cracking on finding more links in the morning. Thank you John, as always, your help is much appreciated.