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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Romilly on Friday 26 September 25 14:34 BST (UK)
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Does anyone know, - did all Banns require signatures?
I’ve got a Marriage Certificate for a Marriage that took place at St Wilfred’s RC Church, Hulme on the 18th September 1880, but it was filled out by the Registrar at the time, and doesn’t have the signatures of the Bride and Groom.
I’m wondering if the Banns for the Marriage might have original signatures?
And also where they might now be held?
Romilly.
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No, Banns are only a notice of intention to marry in the Church of England. When my son married 40 years ago my husband and I informed our Parish Church here in Dorset of his intention to marry in the bride’s Parish Church in Kent. We ourselves were married in a Congregational Church and had to inform the Register Office where they displayed a notice of our intention to marry.
To see the couples signatures you need to see the Parish Register.
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Thanks Jebber, much appreciated.
Romilly
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If you buy a photocopy of the certificate held by the GRO then you are getting an image of the copy of the marriage certificate which was made at the time of the marriage and sent to the GRO.
If you purchase a copy from the local Registrar's office then what used to happen was that they would by hand make a copy the certificate.
These days some Registrar's will make a photocopy of the original so that you will see the actual signatures (if they did sign) of the groom, bride and witnesses. Not all do this however. Some 20 years back I obtained a copy of my G parents marriage and it came as a handwritten copy. If the certificates are bound up like in a book then they would not want to risk damaging the spine by flattening the book onto a scanner repeatedly.
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It might be an idea to contact Manchester City Council to see where the original marriage records are held, especially as this was a RC church - they sometimes had their own document storage facilities.
https://www.manchester.gov.uk/contactus
Or
https://mlfhs.uk/databases/catholic-records
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Many thanks All for your replies.
After receiving the Marriage Certificate completed by the Registrar at the time (1880) I contacted the Lancashire Archives, who told me that the original Registers were held at Manchester Central Library. I’ve had numerous emails and phone calls with the Help desk at the Library and they kindly looked through the microfiche registers for me. Sadly, it would appear that they only have the copy certificate that I already have; which has no original signatures on it.
This is very confusing and disappointing, because I thought that signatures were required by law?
Marriage certificates in England in 1880 required the signatures or marks of both the bride and groom, along with those of at least two witnesses, on a marriage schedule that was then used to create the certificate
These signatures were a legal requirement established by the Clandestine Marriages Act of 1753, which mandated that parties to a marriage and at least two witnesses sign the register’.
Romilly.
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An RC wedding, at that time, would be "by certificate".... i.e they would have given notice to marry to the superintendent registrar, not by banns.
The original (signed) register would be held by the registration office for the district.
RC churches may.have kept a second register themselves, often in Latin, but didn't have to.
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Thanks Antony,
Would that be Chorlton On Medlock, Register-Office, Cavendish Street north side. Manchester, rather than the main Manchester Registry Office?
Romilly
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Whatever district that church was in would have had the register, although i think some historical Manchester registers gave been placed in the archives.
For accuracy you should avoid confusing certificates and registers, they aren't the same thing.
Marriage certicates don't need original signatures (other than that of the registrar issuing it), marriage registers do.
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I think I’ve probably reached the end of the road with this☹️
I’ve tried the Archives, the main Manchester Registry Office and the Manchester Central Library; all they seem to have is the Certificate completed by the Registrar at the time, Joseph Gormley. (Attached).
Nobody seems to know what became of the original certificate with the Bride and Groom’s signatures.
Romilly
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There is no original certificate.....you need to be asking about registers.
What you have is a certificate produced from the copy that the registrar sent to GRO.
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I take your point, Antony.
And so the microfiche slides that the Library so kindly looked through for me, would just be photographed from the Register?
From what I could gather, they didn’t seem to have the actual Registers, just the microfiche copies. It’s very frustrating, because I think that I would probably have to search in person to get any further, and I’m a long way from Manchester 🫤
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I've no idea what they have on their microfiche, but if it doesn't have original signatures they aren't images from the original register.
But, you have no right of access to a civil register...... only to have a certificate produced from the information it contains, although as pointed out you can ask for a certificate to made by photocopying the original, they don't have to do it.
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I take your point, Antony.
And so the microfiche slides that the Library so kindly looked through for me, would just be photographed from the Register?
From what I could gather, they didn’t seem to have the actual Registers, just the microfiche copies. It’s very frustrating, because I think that I would probably have to search in person to get any further, and I’m a long way from Manchester 🫤
Is it the actual original signatures that you are/were hoping to take a look at? Did you want to compare them against any other signatures of people of the same names or what?
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Romilly
Before much was available to view online, I bought a number of PRs of the places my family lived in Essex on Microfiche, they are images of the actual Parish Records so I was able to see the signatures of the couple and the witnesses.
A lot of Pr's were filmed by the LDS, they went to many churches and filmed them, that is why you can see films of a lot of original PRs on Ancestry.
Years ago I spent hours online trawling through films of the original Medway Kent PRs on the Medway Archives website as they had filmed their own so are not on Ancestry. Now I can search in minutes on Findmypast, and download the whole Register. If only they were all available like that we would be in clover.
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Hi Coombs,
I’ve long suspected that Richard Kean, born Manchester 1860, and my late Grandfather, William James Wilson, born Manchester 1860, were one and the same person.
DNA testing links me to the descendants of Richard Kean and Frances Butler, the parents of Richard Kean, whereas I have no Wilson DNA matches at all.
I have many copies of William James Wilson’s signature, from Census records and his Marriage Certificate, but I have none of Richard Kean’s. That’s why I’d like to compare them.
Romilly.
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Romilly
Before much was available to view online, I bought a number of PRs of the places my family lived in Essex on Microfiche, they are images of the actual Parish Records so I was able to see the signatures of the couple and the witnesses.
A lot of Pr's were filmed by the LDS, they went to many churches and filmed them, that is why you can see films of a lot of original PRs on Ancestry.
Years ago I spent hours online trawling through films of the original Medway Kent PRs on the Medway Archives website as they had filmed their own so are not on Ancestry. Now I can search in minutes on Findmypast, and download the whole Register. If only they were all available like that we would be in clover.
Jebber, I remember that a lot of things that were free to view on Family Search (LDS) are now pay to view on FindMyPast. Sadly, the original Registers from St Wilfred’s RC Church, Hulme, don’t seem to be available to view on any Site 😢
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A tree on Ancestry has uploaded an image of a military record for Richard Kean enlisting in the 3rd Battalion Manchester Regiment in November 1881, and said he was born in Hulme, Manchester, an is a house painter. And it does seem to show his signature at the bottom, this is likely his original as it is from his army records, as opposed to a copy of his signature. See attachment:-
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Yes, I posted that Coombs.
It’s from the 1886 Manchester Militia Records on Ancestry.
However, it appears to be his Father’s signature, (also Richard Kean), as he supported the application.
It actually says, ‘signature of the person vouching for the recruit’.
Romilly.
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William James Wilson’s signature is on the 1911 and 1921 Censuses, and also on his Marriage Certificate; which I’ve just tried to post on here, but is too large apparently. The Marriage Certificate, with original signatures is on FindMyPast, - William James Wilson married Margaret Rees at the Parish Church, Swansea on the 22nd June 1893.
Romilly
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MLFHS Catholic Register Index
Marriage 1880, at Manchester, St. Wilfrid, Hulme
Richardum KEAN
Mariam Annam YOUNG
https://mlfhs.uk/databases/catholic-records
Marriage registers for St. Wilfrid's have been transcribed for the period 1844-1916.The original registers are deposited at Lancashire Archives, Preston
https://mlfhs.uk/databases/catholic-records/register-index#1
Looking at some contemporary catholic marriage registers that are online, they don't have signatures of the bride and groom. I suppose there could be exceptions.
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Sorry, I see you have already been through all this last year
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=815251.27
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I was excited for you when I found that signature, unaware you already knew about it.
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I was excited for you when I found that signature, unaware you already knew about it.
Apologies Coombs,
I should have ‘gathered previous threads’, but to be honest, I’ve been on here since 2005, and there are so many! 😢
I’ve been trying to find definitive answers about my Grandfather since I first started looking in the 1970’s. Every so often I give up, - and then something makes me have another look. I don’t like feeling defeated ☹️
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Have you got Richard's baptism?
Baptism, 1860, at Manchester, St. Wilfrid, Hulme
Ricardus KEAN
Father Ricardi KEAN
Mother Francescae BUTLER
https://mlfhs.uk/databases/catholic-records
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Yes thanks Jowarrn , I have that.
I tried pursuing Richard Kean’s Birth Certificate, but he doesn’t seem to have had one. Curious, because the other children of Richard Kean and Frances Butler had them.
I’ve found him on the Censuses, until after 1891, when he disappears.
My Grandfather William James Wilson is nowhere to be found before he married my Grandmother in Swansea in 1893, after that he’s on the 1901, 1911 and 1921 Censuses for Swansea.
Romilly.