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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: BarbW on Thursday 25 September 25 14:41 BST (UK)
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My grandfather was born in Bethesda, Wales in 1898 but grew up in Penmaenmawr, Wales. I did upload a copy of this photo a long time ago but it was too blurry. A relative found on Ancestry sent me the original photo.
Does anyone think this uniform could be the Royal Welsh Fusiliers? I can find no military records on Ancestry so they must have been in the burnt records.
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The cap badge does look similar/same
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Welch_Fusiliers
Cas
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I'd agree with Cas.
Ancestry should at least have his medal card , that will tell you his regiment.
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The cap badge does look similar/same
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Welch_Fusiliers
Cas
Thank you, yes that's what I thought too.
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I'd agree with Cas.
Ancestry should at least have his medal card , that will tell you his regiment.
I can't find anything. Weren't all many WW1 records burnt in WW2 I believed? I know there is a museum but they state they don't hold any records of the men who served. I thought because of his age he must have been conscripted.
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A lot of service records were burnt, but the medal cards are available. If you have his name you should be able to find him. I'm sure many Rootschatters would rise to the challenge:)
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A lot of service records were burnt, but the medal cards are available. If you have his name you should be able to find him. I'm sure many Rootschatters would rise to the challenge:)
Well I've just looked and with the name being so common, it won't be easy 😬 plus I don't understand all the military abbreviations so I don't know which is the right one.
The photo was taken in a photographic studio in Llandudno.
Thomas John Williams
DOB 22 FEB 1898
Bethesda
Son of Robert John Williams and Ellen Owens.
He died in a road traffic accident in Whitchurch, Shropshire in 1943 when a member of the RAF, I do have some records of his life after he married my grandmother in Liverpool.
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P.s. is this a WW1 uniform as I thought or could it be later? I only know as it looks familiar from old photos and films with the leg wear.
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is this a WW1 uniform as I thought or could it be later?
It's an early WW1 uniform.
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is this a WW1 uniform as I thought or could it be later?
It's an early WW1 uniform.
Thank you Shaun
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I remember working on this one before as his Death comes to mind when I pass RAF Tilstock
as my Granddad was at the POW Camp across the Road at Prees Heath Whitchurch
Thomas John Williams was born 22 February 1898 in Llanllechid near Bethesda
That said - he would not have been 18 until February 1916 after Conscription had come in.
He would have been allocated to any Regt in the British Army and highly unlikely in my experience for him to have been able to chose a Welsh Regt to Enlist into just because he was born in Wales.
He probably went Overseas 1917 and been awarded Two Medals Mutt and Jeff at least.
But the Family don't have them in their possession to confirm his Regt and Number
This Photo posted - I don't disagree with as pre 1918
But that doesn't mean it becomes him - Many Families were given Photos of their Relatives that were serving but didn't note the rear of the Photo as to who the Soldier was and when those Relatives who did recognise the Soldier had Passed away -the Soldier became unknown and liable to guesses.
There are loads of Medal Cards for Name Thomas John Williams but they were Discharged on Silver War Badge and Disability Pension
We know Thomas was Demobbed from the Army pre 1920 so his Records would have been sent to the Army Repository Storeroom in Arnside Street as an Ex Soldier and they were held Safely for 20 years till they were Blitzed in September 1940 and a Review of the Ancestry Records of the Survived Burnt Records confirms his aren't there.
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I remember working on this one before as his Death comes to mind when I pass RAF Tilstock
as my Granddad was at the POW Camp across the Road at Prees Heath Whitchurch
Thomas John Williams was born 22 February 1898 in Llanllechid near Bethesda
That said - he would not have been 18 until February 1916 after Conscription had come in.
He would have been allocated to any Regt in the British Army and highly unlikely in my experience for him to have been able to chose a Welsh Regt to Enlist into just because he was born in Wales.
He probably went Overseas 1917 and been awarded Two Medals Mutt and Jeff at least.
But the Family don't have them in their possession to confirm his Regt and Number
This Photo posted - I don't disagree with as pre 1918
But that doesn't mean it becomes him - Many Families were given Photos of their Relatives that were serving but didn't note the rear of the Photo as to who the Soldier was and when those Relatives who did recognise the Soldier had Passed away -the Soldier became unknown and liable to guesses.
There are loads of Medal Cards for Name Thomas John Williams but they were Discharged on Silver War Badge and Disability Pension
We know Thomas was Demobbed from the Army pre 1920 so his Records would have been sent to the Army Repository Storeroom in Arnside Street as an Ex Soldier and they were held Safely for 20 years till they were Blitzed in September 1940 and a Review of the Ancestry Records of the Survived Burnt Records confirms his aren't there.
We know on 19 June 1921 he was at Home with his Mother and Siblings as he was Studying for a Degree
Thank you for your reply but perhaps you are getting Thomas John Williams confused with another of the same very common name. His mother died in 1918 in Penmaenmawr. I have the death certificate and a newspaper memorial for her.
On 02 May 1921 he married my grandmother Ethel Pritchard in Liverpool Registry Office, I have the marriage certificate and by the 1921 census in June he was living with her family at Grey Rock Street in Liverpool and he was a Cotton Porter.
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Ooops
I have amended my Last Sentence which was incorrect - Sorry
He was in the Royal Airforce Auxiliary Before WW2 per the 1939 Register
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Ooops
I have amended my Last Sentence which was incorrect - Sorry
He was in the Royal Airforce Auxiliary Before WW2 per the 1939 Register
Yes that is correct.
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The 1921Census for Thomas John Williams Just Married and living with his Wife Ethel Pritchard and her Parents in Anfield Liverpool as a Cotton Porter proves he was no longer in the Forces if he did serve in WW1 - There is No proof that Thomas did serve in WW1 - although he was 18 in February 1916 and likely to be Conscripted- Not all Soldiers were passed Fit for Service and Not all Served Overseas so they were not awarded any Medals so there are no Medal Cards
If he did Pass Conscription in 1916 he would have been allocated to any UK Regt till 1919
Many Ancestry Trees have all attached the Royal Welch Fusiliers Studio Portrait of that Soldier claiming it is Thomas John
But this Soldier who was in the Royal Welch Fusiliers clearly Enlisted 1914/15 before Conscription in 1916 - so it highly unlikely to be Thomas - he could have lied about his Age and Enlisted 1914/15 to ensure he got into the Royal Welch but he would have been aged 16 then
Where did he get the Money from to pay for a Portrait Photograph in a Studio ?
This Family Photo is obviously a Williams Relative who enlisted 1914/15 into the Royal Welch Regt
If Thomas did serve in WW1 his Records went to Arnside Street Repository in 1920 and didn't survive the Blitz in 1940
Do you know his whereabouts 1921 to 1939 ?
You stated you had Records about him after his 1921 Marriage to Ethel
Where did you get them from ?
Have you Applied for his WW2.Records ?
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The 1921Census for Thomas John Williams Just Married and living with his Wife Ethel Pritchard and her Parents in Anfield Liverpool as a Cotton Porter proves he was no longer in the Forces if he did serve in WW1 - There is No proof that Thomas did serve in WW1 - although he was 18 in February 1916 and likely to be Conscripted- Not all Soldiers were passed Fit for Service and Not all Served Overseas so they were not awarded any Medals so there are no Medal Cards
If he did Pass Conscription in 1916 he would have been allocated to any UK Regt till 1919
Many Ancestry Trees have all attached the Royal Welch Fusiliers Studio Portrait of that Soldier claiming it is Thomas John
But this Soldier who was in the Royal Welch Fusiliers clearly Enlisted 1914/15 before Conscription in 1916 - so it highly unlikely to be Thomas - he could have lied about his Age and Enlisted 1914/15 to ensure he got into the Royal Welch but he would have been aged 16 then
Where did he get the Money from to pay for a Portrait Photograph in a Studio ?
This Family Photo is obviously a Williams Relative who enlisted 1914/15 into the Royal Welch Regt
If Thomas did serve in WW1 his Records went to Arnside Street Repository in 1920 and didn't survive the Blitz in 1940
Do you know his whereabouts 1921 to 1939 ?
You stated you had Records about him after his 1921 Marriage to Ethel
Where did you get them from ?
Have you Applied for his WW2.Records ?
I came to this forum merely looking for help in identifying a uniform. This is definitely my grandfather.
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There are 2 useful pointers about him that stand out from his otherwise generic uniform. The first is the Royal Welsh Fusiliers cap badge and the second it the belt. It is a 1914 pattern leather belt rather than the usual 1908 webbing belt. Such was the demand for equipment that the Army decided to order a stand in webbing set made of leather as they could not manufacture or import enough of the 1908 pattern one. As your relative is wearing the very same belt it is likely that the photo is taken in 1915 or possibly 1916. Perhaps it is a studio photo of him in his new uniform after enlistment?
I hope that helps.
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There are 2 useful pointers about him that stand out from his otherwise generic uniform. The first is the Royal Welsh Fusiliers cap badge and the second it the belt. It is a 1914 pattern leather belt rather than the usual 1908 webbing belt. Such was the demand for equipment that the Army decided to order a stand in webbing set made of leather as they could not manufacture or import enough of the 1908 pattern one. As your relative is wearing the very same belt it is likely that the photo is taken in 1915 or possibly 1916. Perhaps it is a studio photo of him in his new uniform after enlistment?
I hope that helps.
Thank you so much. After the speculation on here yesterday about the photo I messaged my elderly auntie last night who assured me that the photograph of her dad I posted is the same as the one in a picture frame in her living room!! Heather on Ancestry who posted out to me the 2 photos is the granddaughter of his older sister Mary, we are DNA related and are 2nd cousins. I was also sent the photo by email in 1999 by his son, my uncle, together with a copy of his birth certificate.
Auntie Dilys said she thought her dad had joined up at 17 years of age by which time his father was deceased leaving a Widow and a much younger brother. Perhaps he got the photo taken as a gift for his mother but that's just a fanciful idea on my part.
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I did s a v e this document but many details have been redacted. I definitely know it's him as this was the date he was killed. Perhaps it was from Fold 3 on a free weekend or something.
Anyway on the part where it says previous service it says Army Reserve Section "D". I have been googling and from what I can understand is it was for those who had previously served in the military and were some kind of reserve but at a lower level. Don't know if this is significant or not.
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Northumberland Fusiliers Circa 1917/8
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is this a WW1 uniform as I thought or could it be later?
It's an early WW1 uniform.
The belt is the 1914, but this Northumberland Fusilier is dressed more in the 1917/8 style when the 1914 belts were used for walking out by many
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I did s a v e this document but many details have been redacted. I definitely know it's him as this was the date he was killed. Perhaps it was from Fold 3 on a free weekend or something.
Anyway on the part where it says previous service it says Army Reserve Section "D". I have been googling and from what I can understand is it was for those who had previously served in the military and were some kind of reserve but at a lower level. Don't know if this is significant or not.
This is a 1939 card... He re enlisted for ww2
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Having had a good look at the photo, I believe that scrimnet is correct in that the cap badge is that of the Northumberland Fusiliers and that the uniform is a walking out uniform of circa 1917.
As the OP posted an image that shows his service up to 1927, his service record should have survived and a copy can be obtained from the Ministry of Defence for a small fee.
An internet search on how to do this would give you instructions.
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Its helpful in that I wrote the book on Identifying Cap Badges ;D ;)
Also I had a Gt Uncle in the NF in ww1.
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Thank you both. Even more for me to think about now. What would be the reason for being in a regiment so far away from Wales? I know from the 1911 census nobody in his home spoke English, only Welsh, so he must have learnt it along the way.
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Thank you both. Even more for me to think about now. What would be the reason for being in a regiment so far away from Wales? I know from the 1911 census nobody in his home spoke English, only Welsh, so he must have learnt it along the way.
My Gt Uncle was from London, and had previously been in the Army Veterinary Corps!
Soldiers were sent as to where they were required after 1916.
It was only the Kitchener Pals bns of 1914 that had some semblance of local affinity, even then they had many from other areas of the country,
Sadly its a fallacy that soldiers only went into their county regiments.
Look on the 1918 absent voters list for him...bearing in mind not all are online and you may have to consult the county record office of where he was living when he enlisted.
I suggest that you look for a medal index card that matches the family
name...and has Northumberland Fusiliers on it ;)
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Thank you everyone for all your help but he has now been found on the 1918 AVL by a member of the Great War Forum. By that time he was in the 19th btn. Welsh Regiment.