RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Philezra on Wednesday 24 September 25 18:01 BST (UK)
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Hi - has anyone else found that the images are cut off??? I can't even read the date of the birth of one of my images....
Can we register a complaint?
Phil
Thank you
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You can apply for a re-issue with no charge. :)
Melbell
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Thank you very much for this
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Sorry but that is incorrect. You must report the poor/incomplete image to the GRO using their online form - go to the FAQs and scroll down to the bottom of the page.
13. What to do if you are not happy with the PDF/Online View digital image/Certificate you have received or the service we have provided
Use our online form to send us a message. When you submit this form it will generate an email to us with the details you have supplied. We will respond to your email within 5 working days.
Please note that any problems with your order must be reported to GRO within three months of the date the order was placed.
You should receive a full refund but the only way to obtain that particular image in full is to order a PDF copy - costing £8.
The digitised images cannot be tweaked to straighten them, whereas the PDF images are produced by GRO staff.
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Thank you also. I have sent off two forms! All a bit slapdash to be honest but if it can be rectified, it's not such a bad service.
Thank you both again.
Phil
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I doubt it will be rectified anytime soon. The one I got a refund on is no longer available as a digital image and if I need to know what the bit that was chopped off said I will have to buy the PDF at £8
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Sorry for any misunderstanding, but I've done this at least twice (using the form referred to in tillypeg's post).
I must be complicating things...? :-\
Melbell
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Melbell, do you mean that the GRO have issued a good digitised image after you have complained about a misaligned one using their online form? I've always had a refund about a week after my complaint, then have decided whether or not to apply for the PDF. I've never heard of a "re-issue with no charge".
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They need to be redone, surely....what's the point, otherwise?
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They need to be redone, surely....what's the point, otherwise?
The cheap option is automated with no human touch and most of the time is ok.
Q22. There is information missing from my image. Can I get the information?
"This is a self-service product with no manual intervention. We are unable to manipulate the image you receive as part of this service. Complete this online form, for investigation into potential reimbursement for your digital image. The information can only be obtained by ordering a certificate or PDF as these can be manipulated to include the missing information."
When a misaligned page is reported all 10 entries on it seem to become only available as a pdf so others are not affected. So thats the point of reporting and also so you get a refund.
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/images/CGOVPublicBeta.pdf
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Interesting- I'll keep an eye out.
Thank you for this.
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See my recent thread on the same subject. I lost the bottom line, I complained over a week ago, I still haven't heard anything, and I'm wondering whether it's worth buying the next record down. Considering the technology that we have these days this is atrocious service.
Zaph
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That's actually quite good thinking- another £3 but cheaper all the same.
I may consider this, truthfully - thanks for adding this!
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They need to be redone, surely....what's the point, otherwise?
The cheap option is automated with no human touch and most of the time is ok.
Q22. There is information missing from my image. Can I get the information?
"This is a self-service product with no manual intervention. We are unable to manipulate the image you receive as part of this service. Complete this online form, for investigation into potential reimbursement for your digital image. The information can only be obtained by ordering a certificate or PDF as these can be manipulated to include the missing information."
When a misaligned page is reported all 10 entries on it seem to become only available as a pdf so others are not affected. So thats the point of reporting and also so you get a refund.
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/images/CGOVPublicBeta.pdf
They didn't offer me a refund :( :o
They told me that if I wanted the missing bottom line across the Certificate, I'd have to buy a pdf or order one through the post.
I do like the speed of getting the information, but sometimes it falls short with bits missing.
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So that is why, some entries are no longer instant!
I wonder if we are shooting ourselves in the foot, a bit, by complaining, if withdrawing all the entries of that page is going to be their answer.
Mind you, I suppose if I buy a pint of milk, I expect a pint. Not 7/8 ths of a pint ;D
Mark
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See my recent thread on the same subject. I lost the bottom line, I complained over a week ago, I still haven't heard anything, and I'm wondering whether it's worth buying the next record down. Considering the technology that we have these days this is atrocious service.
Zaph
My understanding is that these "instant" images are left over from a project to fully automate, that got abandoned, and they are just monetising the remnants.
They're not revisiting that by going and getting a new, properly aligned, image, as that is what the pdf service is about
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So that is why, some entries are no longer instant!
I wonder if we are shooting ourselves in the foot, a bit, by complaining, if withdrawing all the entries of that page is going to be their answer.
Mind you, I suppose if I buy a pint of milk, I expect a pint. Not 7/8 ths of a pint
I think there is some foot shooting going on... buying the 'other half' of an misaligned image costs £3 and is instant. Buying a PDF costs £8 and can take a few days.
So buy two 'half' images for £6, or have a refund and wait for the PDF for £8. I know which I'd do.
There also seems to be the issue that reporting results in the page being taken out of the digital option - which means anyone else looking for an entry on that page will also have to pay at least £8, rather than having the £3/£6 option available to them.
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My understanding is that these "instant" images are left over from a project to fully automate, that got abandoned, and they are just monetising the remnants.
They're not revisiting that by going and getting a new, properly aligned, image, as that is what the pdf service is about
The DOVE/EAGLE project wasn't abandonded as such, just significantly re-scoped. The search facility on the GRO site was the (massively delayed) product of the digitisation work, and AIUI the PDF production (and some certificates?) are making use of images captured as part of this.
I could be wrong, but I don't think there was originally a plan to release the digitised images at low cost in the form they are now available. IIRC at the time the project was running the people in charge took the view that the records could (legally) only be issued in certificate form.
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See my recent thread on the same subject. I lost the bottom line, I complained over a week ago, I still haven't heard anything, and I'm wondering whether it's worth buying the next record down. Considering the technology that we have these days this is atrocious service.
Zaph
My understanding is that these "instant" images are left over from a project to fully automate, that got abandoned, and they are just monetising the remnants.
They're not revisiting that by going and getting a new, properly aligned, image, as that is what the pdf service is about
I vaguely seem to recall seeing a working party about the tendering for the scanning.
Tax payers' money was spent to do this and for the project to work, even if purchasers got a bit of the adjoining entry top and bottom.
Commercial companies manage to scan images from microfilm.
Therefore, I find any government excuses rather poor!
Mark
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I vaguely seem to recall seeing a working party about the tendering for the scanning.
Tax payers' money was spent to do this and for the project to work, even if purchasers got a bit of the adjoining entry top and bottom.
Commercial companies manage to scan images from microfilm.
Therefore, I find any government excuses rather poor!
Mark
As I posted above, I don't think there was an original intention for the digitised images to be made available to the public, therefore the scanning was probably done on the basis that GRO staff would manipulate the page as necessary to produce the certificate in PDF or paper form.
The public access project "MAGPIE" was for access to the index only (hence the 'I' of MAGPIE) as far as I remember, and this is what we now have (in part) on the GRO website.
My guess (and I'm happy to be corrected) is that the digital images have been made available by using automated image manipulation software to 'extract' the portion of a scanned image the customer requests - therefore it may have nothing at all to do with the original scanning.
Personally I'm happy that I can see an entry for the cost of £3, rather than paying the full cost of a certificate - which is what we had to do before the new index was made available. If that means a compromise on quality and the occasional error then so be it. Those seeking something better can still buy a PDF/paper certificate. I see it as a win-win.
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I think we seek the information that we expect to see, not some of it.
If we "knew" there's a chance information could be missing, it then becomes a good deal, not when you're expecting to see what you asked for.
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I think we seek the information that we expect to see, not some of it.
If we "knew" there's a chance information could be missing, it then becomes a good deal, not when you're expecting to see what you asked for.
The digital image service FAQs do mention that there may be issues with seeing the whole entry and how to go about getting a refund if appropriate.
Although it isn't compulsory to read the FAQs when placing an order.
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Fair enough- didn't know that....but I find it all a bit odd!
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I think the whole thing seems to be an
abso
lute
sham
bles
If we can't get everything on the same line.
Zaph
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Correct.
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It was discussed that division of images would need to be altered.
However, they possibly went for the cheapest tender in the end re the digital imaging.
The HHS (Health and Human Services) Department in the United States have been discussing the Covid Vaccine.
There are some very strange claims currently being made at how the high effectiveness was previously arrived at.
Mark
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The HHS (Health and Human Services) Department in the United States have been discussing the Covid Vaccine.
There are some very strange claims currently being made at how the high effectiveness was previously arrived at.
I've been following this thread with great interest, but I'm struggling to understand the relevance of the Covid Vacine to the topic?
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However, they possibly went for the cheapest tender in the end re the digital imaging.
They did not, cost is one consideration on goverment tenders. In the event the scale of the project was underestimated by both. There are various old long threads on the DOVE, EAGLE, MAGPIE project on here c2006-2010. Siemens did them, a synopsis is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Register_Office_for_England_and_Wales . £8.33 million then, after refund from Siemens given that only 50% had been completed (no marriages).
The cheap uption was a recent addition with no adjustment or human cropping of the digital images. Initially the images were only used on paper certs then offered as pdf's.
The GRO's quarterly copies are a combined bound bundle of various sub-districts.The similar Irish ones some pages are vertical and some are slant and so some have the left or right edges of parts of entries cut off. They are not uniform. It was envisiaged there would be human input before sale, legislation at the time only allowed for paper copies so digitisation was for internal efficiencies more than specifically designed for geneologists, and not with a pdf or jpeg service in mind. We are talking 20 years ago. A GRO cert is a legal 'certified copy of an entry' if handwritten or typed, that was what you got for 150 years.
Another part of the project was modern re-indexing from the images, adding mother's maiden surnames back to 1837 and ages at death, which only commenced 1866 & 1911 on the original period (FreeBMD) indexes.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/digitisation-of-vital-events-project-costs/expenditure-on-the-digitisation-of-vital-events-project-of-civil-registration-record
I think the whole thing seems to be a shambles
That is an opinion, many have been happy that they only have to spend a third or a quarter of what they previously had to for their ancestor's information. Not that long ago the only option was a paper cert via snail mail, only to find you had ordered the wrong one. As Nick said they do warn it is a possibility and if people want to avoid it then they need to purchase only the pdf's.
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/faq.asp
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I apologise for the muddle I have caused by my misunderstanding of the digitalisation process.
I have received only one 'chopped off' image. This was a couple of years ago.
Not understanding, I requested a 'duplicate', and of course GRO sent me the same image as before. (I didn't pursue the matter further - could be bothered, too much hassle, not vital to my research).
The resulting thread has been interesting anyway! Thank you.
Melbell
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I just received this:
Thank you for your enquiry.
We are sorry that you have received an incomplete image.
We have arranged for a full refund of £3.00 to be credited to your account via Worldpay.
As we are unable to manipulate the image, if you still require a copy of the above entry, you will need to place a further order for a PDF image (which can be manipulated) or a certificate.
We apologise for any inconvenience caused.
Should you have any further questions or concerns regarding this order, please contact us directly via our online contact form and we will be happy to help you.
Regards
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I just received this:
We are sorry that you have received an incomplete image.
We have arranged for a full refund of £3.00 to be credited to your account via Worldpay.
Are you going to spend it on the digital image of the birth of William Burton Nicholson, see if the missing bit of your image is on that one?
Part of my GRO birth record is missing
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=893936.msg7682330#msg7682330
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Apparently not.
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Hi I know that everyone here has probably decided that there is not much of an option. Try this:
When you find the Image take a screen shot and save and label that. There should be a "PrntScr" buttn on the keyboard.
I am not sure but some systems let you crop an image right from the source.
I have an image manipulation program that does that as well.
but if you have not got that just print the screenshot and trim if you wish.
Digital mages are not Official so ..... hope the above helps and is not out of line.
Essnell
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I am afraid that manipulation or cropping will not help Essnell as part of the image is missing.
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Probably not but I haven't really decided yet.
Zaph
I just received this:
We are sorry that you have received an incomplete image.
We have arranged for a full refund of £3.00 to be credited to your account via Worldpay.
Are you going to spend it on the digital image of the birth of William Burton Nicholson, see if the missing bit of your image is on that one?
Part of my GRO birth record is missing
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=893936.msg7682330#msg7682330
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Probably not but I haven't really decided yet.
If it is correct that a report of a misaligned image and refund results in the whole page of entries becoming unavailable as digital images then you might not want to wait too long before getting the adjacent entry... assuming it isn't too late already.
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If it is correct that a report of a misaligned image and refund results in the whole page of entries becoming unavailable as digital images then you might not want to wait too long before getting the adjacent entry... assuming it isn't too late already.
If that were the case, I assume that a steadily growing number of pages would become unavailable as more users reported problems ? Of course reported pages should be redigitised, but perhaps that is expecting too much ? :(
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Of course reported pages should be redigitised
Nothing wrong with many of the originals of the whole page, is likely what they manipulate to produce the pdf or cert. The problem is the image is misaligned squif or horizontally (the top of all the originally loose leaf quarterly copy pages are not level) so the auto-selection box is over the wrong part of the full image. Perhaps worked loose over the years.
Redigitisation would mean getting the original volume from archive, scanning and attaching/relinking new to the 10 people appearing on the page and indexed, involving IT, so more time-consuming.
They still have to manually do all marriages and 1935/1958 onwards births and deaths not imaged by DOVE back in 2008, thence they are not offered as a jpeg or pdf. Done individually to order using office equipment only.
The following is worth a watch, is only a few minutes long. Shows a birth registration 1937 then the process involved in Somerset House to order a BMD from the printed indexes, then the bound quarterly copy ledgers being picked and moved. Parts of the full pages can be seen. Back then we see the clerk overlaying a page with a box cut out to ensure her eye does not stray and transcribe the row above or below as she types.
https://www.britishpathe.com/asset/67429/
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If it is correct that a report of a misaligned image and refund results in the whole page of entries becoming unavailable as digital images then you might not want to wait too long before getting the adjacent entry... assuming it isn't too late already.
If that were the case, I assume that a steadily growing number of pages would become unavailable as more users reported problems ?
Yes, if what people are saying is correct, the number of pages for which digital images will be available will be slowly declining.
Of course reported pages should be redigitised, but perhaps that is expecting too much ? :(
AIUI the problem isn't with the original scanning, rather with the process (presumably 100% software) which works out where the relevant entry is on the page and extracts that area.
If so, it would need a better software system to more accurately 'guess' where the entry is on the page and deal with any orientation issues. But at only £3 per image and seemingly the vast majority of images having no issues, I'm not sure there would be much desire to invest in a better system.
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rather with the process (presumably 100% software) which works out where the relevant entry is on the page and extracts that area.
Thats an interesting point, is there an unseen row indicator on the modern re-index that orders must be placed from, or does AI attempt to decifer the writing & locate. All we can see is the old District Volume and page, thereafter staff used their eyes to find the entry requested.
Not sure what they did if were two John Jones on the same page before mother's maiden surname appeared to assist.
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Hi, I was just wondering how you got the information for the certificate to order it.
I know GRO only shows a list with the basic and you choose that which then sends to the order page as required. But can you view the image elsewhere such as via parish register image etc those show amazing details at times.
if the first, no way of dealing with this other than what's been suggested. GRO pulls the strings. or sets up the hoops.
Essnell
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GRO Certificates for Births and Deaths have nothing to do with Parish Registers and the only way to see them is to buy them from the GRO, or if you know where it was registered you should be able to order paper copies from that local Register Office.
Marriages in Church can often be viewed in the Parish Register if you know where it took place. Many have been filmed and are available online, mainly on subscription sites. Civil marriages are only available from the GRO or the local office.