RootsChat.Com
Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Glamorganshire => Topic started by: Gordon163 on Tuesday 23 September 25 07:55 BST (UK)
-
Hi,
On the 1921 Census, we find Hubert Avery, born c 1903, along with his father, John Avery, born c1871 at Starcross, Devon and his step-mother, Kate.
John Avery appears to have been married twice:
1906 in Cardiff to Mette Kerstine Birkholm;
1915 in Crediton to Florence Kate Warren.
I think that Miss Birkholm might be Hubert's mother, but she was probably underage when Hubert was born. She was certainly the mother of Rosa, but the birth of Lily, in 1913, does not seem to appear in the records. I think that she went on to a couple of marriages in Lancashire.
I would be extremely pleased if anyone can help in tracing what happened to Hubert.
Thanks,
Gordon
-
If Hubert was born before the marriage then he might not have been registered as Avery (and John may not have been his father). Do you have any other info about him at all?
Have you found Hubert in 1911? John appears to be married but a boarder with no wife or children with him.
-
No, I can't find Hubert anywhere apart from 1921 Census.
In 1911, I think that Miss Birkholm was with a Swedish Sailor (Sven P Svencson), whom she later married. Rosa Avery, the daughter, has been left with the maternal grandparents, but Hubert is not with them.
Gordon
-
Could Hubert have been Kate’s son? Had she been previously married? Just strange that he’s listed after the daughters, and no obvious birth registration or 1911 entry.
Hubert of course could have been his second name - i have found numerous records where people are known by their second or even third Christian name.
-
I don't think John Avery married Florence Kate Warren as they are in Devon 1921 and he is J L Avery.
-------------------------
I agree with Dierdre784 I think Hubert 1903 is Kate's son
Lily 1913 could be an Avery after John and Kate get together
-
Who did Lily name as her father when she married?
-
Hubert was Hubert Harding - Dad was also Hubert Harding and died in 1909. Kate was his mother.
Lily was her daughter from a 2nd marriage to Benjamin J L Johnstone (1914 - after Lily was born ?).
Benjamin J L Johnstone died in 1921 and Kate married John Avery in 1923. He was only the father of Rosa and, by then, divorced from her mother. John Avery died in 1929
Kate was Catherine Ellen Warren, born in Bristol in 1880. Catherine Avery is on the 1939 Register.
I do not know what happened to Hubert Harding though.
Gordon
-
Mmm John’s service record (enlisted 9 April 1915 of Moy Rd Cardiff) is on ancxxxry and gives his father’s address in Exminster Devon as his ‘address on leave’ and shows no marriage or children.
-
Hubert was Hubert Harding - Dad was also Hubert Harding and died in 1909. Kate was his mother.
Why didn’t you say this in the beginning to save us searching for Hubert Avery 🙄
-
Did Lily marry Richard Hughes-Lewis? If so, it looks like Hubert ‘gave her away’ so was presumably still alive (and in Cardiff) in May 1939.
Hubert appears to be with his mother in 1911 in Margaret St, Cardiff. Plus her un-married sister Louisa and her baby son.
Wasn’t going to come back to this after wasting time looking for Hubert Avery, but was bored and like a challenge 😀
-
Because I only found it this morning!
Gordon
-
Perhaps your later post could have mentioned that then 🙄 i’ll leave you to it.
-
Thanks for your help. anyway.
Gordon
-
A possibility for Lily's birth:
JOHNSTONE, LILIAN LYDIA LAURENCE
Mother's maiden surname: HARDING
GRO Reference: 1912 D Quarter in CARDIFF Volume 11A Page 709
Debra :)
-
National Schools Admissions Register
Crwys Road School, Cardiff(boys)
Hubert Harding, date of birth 5th November 1902, mother Kate, address 145 Malefont St. Joined school 1st September 1910, Left 2nd December 1910 - living in Broadway.
-
Couldn't resist.... Lilian did marry Richard Hughes-Lewis, May 1939, newspaper report says she was the daughter of Mrs C Avery of Lochaber Street, and a Hubert Harding gave her away; she died in Cardiff in 2000, buried in Rhiwbina.
Catherine Avery and Lilian and Richard Hughes-Lewis still in Lochaber Street in 1963 (updated to add that Richard died in 1962).
-
Possible 1934/5/6 sighting of Hubert Harding in electoral register. Abode, caravan, Amusement Park, Barry Island.
SS
-
There's an interesting looking marriage in 1935 in Cardiff, for a Charles H H Harding and Agnes Bolson, son Brian Anthony born 1939 (mmn Bolson, died 2019), and 1939 register, still in Cardiff, where he is simply Charles Harding, but .... date of birth agrees with the 5 Nov 1902 school entry found by sgf28, and he was a E N G Apprentice Proud & Son Docks Cardiff in 1921 and a Yard Ship Fitter Heavy Worker in 1939.
Death on the GRO of Charles Henry H Harding, Q3 1991 in South Glamorgan (includes Cardiff), born 1905, and a burial for a Charles Henry Hubert Harding in Pantmawr cemetery in Cardiff in July 1991, find a grave says birth 1906 so slightly out, same plot as Agnes Harding, died Nov 1921.
Only possible obviously, but might explain why there are no records for Hubert; the marriage / death certificates would hopefully confirm (or deny).
-
There's an interesting looking marriage in 1935 in Cardiff, for a Charles H H Harding and Agnes Bolson, son Brian Anthony born 1939 (mmn Bolson, died 2019), and 1939 register, still in Cardiff, where he is simply Charles Harding, but .... date of birth agrees with the 5 Nov 1902 school entry found by sgf28, and he was a E N G Apprentice Proud & Son Docks Cardiff in 1921 and a Yard Ship Fitter Heavy Worker in 1939.
Death on the GRO of Charles Henry H Harding, Q3 1991 in South Glamorgan (includes Cardiff), born 1905, and a burial for a Charles Henry Hubert Harding in Pantmawr cemetery in Cardiff in July 1991, find a grave says birth 1906 so slightly out, same plot as Agnes Harding, died Nov 1921.
Only possible obviously, but might explain why there are no records for Hubert; the marriage / death certificates would hopefully confirm (or deny).
I looked at that man but was put off by the below.
SS
HARDING, HUBERT CHARLES SYDENHAM
GRO Reference: 1906 D Quarter in CARDIFF Volume 11A Page 372
-
He confused me quite a bit earlier (not many Huberts), but I think he's the Hubert/Herbert Charles Harding who appears in quite a few records in Penarth. Died Sep quarter 1973. DoB 20 Sep 1906.
Added: married to May Tiller, both on 1939 register in Penarth, HC's DoB recorded as 20 Sep 1906, his parents were Herbert Charles Harding and Sarah Annie Sydenham.
-
In 1956-63 electoral registers he appears with Agnes as Hubert H Harding, on a majority of all other electoral registers he is Charles H.
In 1963 register son Brian A is living next door to parents with his wife.
SS
-
no wonder it gets confusing.... in 1911 Kate Johnstone, is said to have been married for 1 year, husband at sea; with her is Hubert Harding, aged 8, listed as son by first husband. But they don't appear to have married until 1914.
Her first husband Benjamin James Laurence Johnstone, born in Pembrokeshire in 1858, was found dead in the river Rumney in Cardiff in August 1921. At the inquest, he was described as a boatswain, of no fixed abode. His widow (Kate, of 105 Alfred St), said she had not lived with her husband for more than 6 years. He had been admitted to the city lodge and then the workhouse, but had been discharged in 1920. He was said to be mentally weak and had been sending Kate bits of string and pieces of newspaper. He had been seen a week earlier covered in mud and walking towards the river. Open verdict.
In 1921, at 105 Alfred St, Kate was listed as Kate Avery, married, with John Avery (and children Rosa, Lily and Hubert). But she was still technically married to Benjamin at the time. Kate and John Avery didn't marry until 1923.
Kate died as Catherine E Avery in Cardiff in 1969, aged 91.
-
There is this 1901, could read Hubert or Herbert
Roath, Cardiff
Piece 4972, Folio 62, Page number 56
John Boyd 28 Head
Hubert Harding 27 Servant, Somerset
Kate Harding 23 Servant, Derbyshire
Possible marriage - same page
Marriages Sep Q 1897
Davies Sarah Cardiff 11a 612
HARDING Bert Cardiff 11a 612
Morgan David Cardiff 11a 612
Warren Catherine Cardiff 11a 612
Cas
-
Thanks Cas, fairly sure that's them but no idea where the Derbyshire comes from (quite clear on the form though).
-
Apologies spotted a mistake in my earlier post (reply 21)… Benjamin was Kate’s second husband not her first.
-
Bert’s death….