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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: collin on Sunday 21 September 25 10:41 BST (UK)

Title: Puzzling birth
Post by: collin on Sunday 21 September 25 10:41 BST (UK)
I was browsing the Online Parish Clerks and came across this
Workhouse Oldham Births
22 March 1890
Mary Hughes legitimate daughter of Robert Collins & Kate Hughes
Parish chargeable Oldham

How could she be legitimate? Maybe should read illegitimate? There is no birth registration for this baby, there is another birth on 18 March 1890 of Annie Hughes illegitimate daughter of Sarah Hughes That birth is registered.
I suspect that Robert Collins is my grandad's eldest brother who was a cab driver, married with two daughters when he ran off to Peterborough with another woman in 1896.
Any thoughts welcome Thank you
Title: Re: Puzzling birth
Post by: collin on Sunday 21 September 25 11:08 BST (UK)
For the sale of £3 I got the birth certificate of Mary Collins and it is her, the mother is Kate Ellen Collins late Hartley, no maiden name, and the father is Robert Collins a slater so it isn't grandad's brother but still a strange birth
Title: Re: Puzzling birth
Post by: collin on Sunday 21 September 25 11:09 BST (UK)
That should be Gateley, not Hartley
Title: Re: Puzzling birth
Post by: rosie99 on Sunday 21 September 25 11:22 BST (UK)
Marriage Dec qtr 1886 
Collins    Robert       
Gately    Kate Ellen       
Bury    8c   664

From Lancashire BMD
COLLINS   Robert   
GATELY   Kate Ellen   
1886   
Bury
Register Office or Registrar Attended   
   RM/61/154   
Title: Re: Puzzling birth
Post by: rosie99 on Sunday 21 September 25 11:31 BST (UK)
1891 Oldham

Robert Collins   32   occ   Slaters labourer bn York, Yorkshire
Kate Ellen   Collins Wife 25   bn Ireland
Mary   Collins Dtr 11 months bn Oldham, Lancashire
Title: Re: Puzzling birth
Post by: CaroleW on Sunday 21 September 25 11:38 BST (UK)
Ref your reply 1 re birth cert

“no maiden name”.

It’s on the birth cert - late Gately??
Title: Re: Puzzling birth
Post by: collin on Sunday 21 September 25 13:20 BST (UK)
Yes on the GaRO index for the mmn there is just an  -  no name  the birth was registered by the master of the workhouse a month later, don't know where Hughes came from? But he is not our Robert anyway so was a bit hasty posting this Thank you
Title: Re: Puzzling birth
Post by: KGarrad on Sunday 21 September 25 14:38 BST (UK)
"late Gately" would usually indicate that the mother had been using 2 surnames.
The "-" under Mother's Maiden Name usually indicates an illegitimate birth. And so no father's name.
Title: Re: Puzzling birth
Post by: CaroleW on Sunday 21 September 25 15:47 BST (UK)
Just for info.  Freebmd/GRO index etc do not show maiden names for births before mid 1911.  If you want a maiden name before that date - use GRO online.

You will probably have already registered & created a login etc  when using it for your copy birth cert & searching is free

https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/Login.asp
Title: Re: Puzzling birth
Post by: collin on Sunday 21 September 25 15:53 BST (UK)
Yes I use the GRO index, it's worth £3 to resolve puzzles like this, my great grandmother had three husbands and on some of the children's births it says late, then formerly for her maiden name
Title: Re: Puzzling birth
Post by: AntonyMMM on Sunday 21 September 25 16:04 BST (UK)
This highlights an issue that crops up occasionally in early birth registration records.

A few registrars used the word "late" to indicate a maiden name, rather than following the convention of preceding it with "formerly".

When the GRO index was compiled it seems that the indexers were told that maiden names would always be after "formerly", so in these occasional cases where "late" was used instead the maiden name field on the GRO index was left blank, even though the couple were married.