RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Jillity on Wednesday 10 September 25 20:48 BST (UK)
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I have a lot of information about my great grandfather. I have his father's name, where he was born, who his sisters were. I know who he married and the names of his children. I have his marriage certificates and his death certificate. The one thing I've never found is any kind of record of his birth or baptism, and therefore I have never found anything that tells me his mother's name. I know his father was called William Campbell Williams or sometimes he was called Campbell William Williams. I know he was married to Julia Williams nee Knox There are several land transaction documents online that name the members of the family including my great grandfather. Not one of them specifically says Julia was his mother although she did leave him property. His name was John Andrew, the same as Julia's brother. He called his first daughter Maria Julia. One of his sisters was called Hannah Maria. I have DNA matches to people in the Knox family. Do you think this is enough evidence to conclude that Julia was his mother or should I keep looking?
The reason this is important to me is that if Julia was his mother, then her family goes back all the way to William the Conqueror. If his mother was Bridie from round the corner, then I'm probably descended from the local washerwoman. I'm not sure if I want the royal ancestors or not. They were pretty awful.
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Campbell William Williams and Julia Knox were recorded as getting married in Dublin in 1827.
There are 16 family trees on Ancestry with the so you may like to compare what they have with the info you have.
DNA can validate the lines if you can populate and verify each person with the usual records.
One tree has Hannah Maria b1829 and Julia b1830.
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If you could list a few details of your great grand father.
(1) His age on his death certificate with year of death, the year he married and his age on his marriage certificate or church register .
(2) Where you think he was born or baptised
(3) You say you know he had sisters, well their births certificates will give their mothers first name and maiden name.
(4) Time period - the census years post Sept 1837/ GRO BMD's may give help or if more recent the 1939 register may help giving address and date of birth.
There are some members who are good at tracking down info or researching who will help you, but they need something to work from.
(I found these info links)
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=871091.msg7422479#msg7422479
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=778193.msg6321392#msg6321392 8)
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=891622.new#new
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=891620.msg7656533#msg7656533
As for your question - Info on ancestors turns up in very strange places at unexpected times sometimes - so you never know whats round the corner. :o ;D :)
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Campbell William Williams and Julia Knox were recorded as getting married in Dublin in 1827.
There are 16 family trees on Ancestry with the so you may like to compare what they have with the info you have.
DNA can validate the lines if you can populate and verify each person with the usual records.
One tree has Hannah Maria b1829 and Julia b1830.
Several of the trees are my family members and people who have asked to look at my tree and copy it. Some are private and haven't replied to messages. I'm just wondering if I can safely assume that Julia was his mother.
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If you could list a few details of your great grand father.
(1) His age on his death certificate with year of death, the year he married and his age on his marriage certificate or church register .
(2) Where you think he was born or baptised
(3) You say you know he had sisters, well their births certificates will give their mothers first name and maiden name.
(4) Time period - the census years post Sept 1837/ GRO BMD's may give help or if more recent the 1939 register may help giving address and date of birth.
There are some members who are good at tracking down info or researching who will help you, but they need something to work from.
(I found these info links)
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=871091.msg7422479#msg7422479
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=778193.msg6321392#msg6321392 8)
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=891622.new#new
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=891620.msg7656533#msg7656533
As for your question - Info on ancestors turns up in very strange places at unexpected times sometimes - so you never know whats round the corner. :o ;D :)
He was born in Queenstown which is now Cork, in 1840. His father was a Dublin solicitior so he may have been baptised in Dublin, or not baptised at all. Maybe the record was never digitised. The person I am pretty sure must be his mother, Julia Williams nee Knox, was the daughter of a reverend. Ancestry says I have 20 records and 28 sources. His first marriage certificate gives the name William Williams as his father, the second marriage certificate says William Campbell Williams. It's the land transactions that make me think my assumption is correct, that Julia Williams is his birth mother. She is the mother of his sister. Later in life, he conveys some property to his sister, Hannah Maria. Also the DNA connections to the Knox family. The info links were my previous posts. This search has been ongoing in the family for several years and none of us have been able to find the answer. There is only one thing left to search if I can find the right documents, and that is probably in the national archives in Kew. I need to identify the correct document and ask them to send me a copy as it hasn't been digitised. It's the list of people who qualified as marine engineers. That may give the names of both parents.
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Jillity, research "Genealogical proof standard".
Zaph
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Jillity, research "Genealogical proof standard".
Zaph
Thank you.
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If you could list a few details of your great grand father.
(1) His age on his death certificate with year of death, the year he married and his age on his marriage certificate or church register .
(2) Where you think he was born or baptised
(3) You say you know he had sisters, well their births certificates will give their mothers first name and maiden name.
(4) Time period - the census years post Sept 1837/ GRO BMD's may give help or if more recent the 1939 register may help giving address and date of birth.
There are some members who are good at tracking down info or researching who will help you, but they need something to work from.
(I found these info links)
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=871091.msg7422479#msg7422479
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=778193.msg6321392#msg6321392 8)
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=891622.new#new
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=891620.msg7656533#msg7656533
As for your question - Info on ancestors turns up in very strange places at unexpected times sometimes - so you never know whats round the corner. :o ;D :)
He was born in Queenstown which is now Cork, in 1840. His father was a Dublin solicitior so he may have been baptised in Dublin, or not baptised at all. Maybe the record was never digitised. The person I am pretty sure must be his mother, Julia Williams nee Knox, was the daughter of a reverend. Ancestry says I have 20 records and 28 sources. His first marriage certificate gives the name William Williams as his father, the second marriage certificate says William Campbell Williams. It's the land transactions that make me think my assumption is correct, that Julia Williams is his birth mother. She is the mother of his sister. Later in life, he conveys some property to his sister, Hannah Maria. Also the DNA connections to the Knox family. The info links were my previous posts. This search has been ongoing in the family for several years and none of us have been able to find the answer. There is only one thing left to search if I can find the right documents, and that is probably in the national archives in Kew. I need to identify the correct document and ask them to send me a copy as it hasn't been digitised. It's the list of people who qualified as marine engineers. That may give the names of both parents.
Quote You above : "Later in life, he conveys some property to his sister, Hannah Maria." Unquote:
If you have written proof Hannah Maria was sister to your great granddad John Andrew Williams and Julia Knox was mother and father Campbell Williams was parents of Hannah Maria Williams. Thats proof to a point unless John Andrew Williams was adopted - But John Andrew William marriage says his father was Campbell William Williams, or William Campbell Williams.
According to familysearch (LDS) Ireland Probate Will Citation (Click on her death date and look at right hand box for citation look for ' Death •[Click on blue 1 Source] 21 Dec 1887 Dublin ') - Julia (Knox) Williams born 1811 - died 21 Dec 1887 Dublin long after John Andrew Williams was born 1840/1842 Cork - Campbell Williams and Julia Knox married well before 1840 -
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/2:2:325Z-HZK?lang=en
( if you are not registered to log in - then register with familysearch first to log in)
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Thank you. Julia was born in 1811. I have a record of her baptism on 12th May, and of her marriage in 1827 at the age of 16. I have searched Web: Ireland, Calendar of Wills and Administrations, 1858-1920 author: Ancestry.com,publisher: Ancestry.com Operations, Inc. Her death doesn't come up.
Family search does have a lot of old land deeds and wills and there are several with Julia's name and other members of the family including John Andrew Williams. They don't say specifically that John Andrew is her son. There are records that say wife of Campbell Williams. These old deeds sometimes give relationships, and sometimes they don't. I think I can conclude that Julia Williams was his mother.
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Thank you. Julia was born in 1811. I have a record of her baptism on 12th May, and of her marriage in 1827 at the age of 16. I have searched Web: Ireland, Calendar of Wills and Administrations, 1858-1920 author: Ancestry.com,publisher: Ancestry.com Operations, Inc. Her death doesn't come up.
Family search does have a lot of old land deeds and wills and there are several with Julia's name and other members of the family including John Andrew Williams. They don't say specifically that John Andrew is her son. There are records that say wife of Campbell Williams. These old deeds sometimes give relationships, and sometimes they don't. I think I can conclude that Julia Williams was his mother.
There is the point that Campbell Williams died in 1848 at least 6 years after John Andrew's birth 1840/1842 ish - so even if Julie (Knox) Williams remarried it would not have effected 'John Andrew's birth & Julia being his mother.'
I'm not sure when births started (off hand) to be recorded in Ireland but baptisms could be years after a birth year.
My opinion after 50 years doing ancestry on and off. ::)
I also think you have achieved "Genealogical proof standard(s)" as you requested: - Therefore you do have enough information to a very high percentage or a jury standards of 'beyond reasonable doubt'
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Thank you. Julia was born in 1811. I have a record of her baptism on 12th May, and of her marriage in 1827 at the age of 16. I have searched Web: Ireland, Calendar of Wills and Administrations, 1858-1920 author: Ancestry.com,publisher: Ancestry.com Operations, Inc. Her death doesn't come up.
Family search does have a lot of old land deeds and wills and there are several with Julia's name and other members of the family including John Andrew Williams. They don't say specifically that John Andrew is her son. There are records that say wife of Campbell Williams. These old deeds sometimes give relationships, and sometimes they don't. I think I can conclude that Julia Williams was his mother.
There is the point that Campbell Williams died in 1848 at least 6 years after John Andrew's birth 1840/1842 ish - so even if Julie (Knox) Williams remarried it would not have effected 'John Andrew's birth & Julia being his mother.'
I'm not sure when births started (off hand) to be recorded in Ireland but baptisms could be years after a birth year.
My opinion after 50 years doing ancestry on and off. ::)
I also think you have achieved "Genealogical proof standard(s)" as you requested: - Therefore you do have enough information to a very high percentage or a jury standards of 'beyond doubt'
Thank you. It's me being picky. I don't think I'd be much good on a jury. It's great to get other people's opinions. Campbell died in 1848. It's on the family headstone in Mount Jerome, Dublin. I have traced my family back to William the Conqueror through Julia Knox. She was part of a wealthy family who married into the aristocracy. William was my 25th Great grandfather. I didn't think he was much good as a king. I had been hoping for a jolly Irish family who loved music and dancing, but you can't change your ancestors.
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He was born in Queenstown which is now Cork, in 1840.
Queenstown is now Cobh.
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/6934508#map=12/51.8659/-8.3342
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I'm not sure when births started (off hand) to be recorded in Ireland but baptisms could be years after a birth year.
Civil registration of births in Ireland started in 1864.
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Added
It would be a big surprise if Campbell Williams did not leave a Will being a solicitor. - So an independent search at the physical archives were the records are held my produce results 'maybe of both parents Wills search - Campbell 1484-1858
'Good hunting'
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/articles/world-records/full-list-of-the-irish-family-history-records/life-events-birth-marriage-death/index-of-irish-wills-1484-1858
Regards Dave
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I'm not sure when births started (off hand) to be recorded in Ireland but baptisms could be years after a birth year.
Civil registration of births in Ireland started in 1864.
Thanks,
I do very little ancestry research for Ireland.
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I have a lot of information about my great grandfather. I have his father's name, where he was born, who his sisters were. I know who he married and the names of his children. I have his marriage certificates and his death certificate. The one thing I've never found is any kind of record of his birth or baptism, and therefore I have never found anything that tells me his mother's name. I know his father was called William Campbell Williams or sometimes he was called Campbell William Williams. I know he was married to Julia Williams nee Knox There are several land transaction documents online that name the members of the family including my great grandfather. Not one of them specifically says Julia was his mother although she did leave him property. His name was John Andrew, the same as Julia's brother. He called his first daughter Maria Julia. One of his sisters was called Hannah Maria. I have DNA matches to people in the Knox family. Do you think this is enough evidence to conclude that Julia was his mother or should I keep looking?
The reason this is important to me is that if Julia was his mother, then her family goes back all the way to William the Conqueror. If his mother was Bridie from round the corner, then I'm probably descended from the local washerwoman. I'm not sure if I want the royal ancestors or not. They were pretty awful.
I had the same information about my Gt Grandfather as you (my Gt Grandfather was born 1884, the exact Birth date I didn't know to begin with) and my Gt Grandfather has a full Civil Birth Certificate which gives parentage.
Also have you found the relatives that you know are your actual relatives, in a Census yet?
It is no good looking at other Trees and assuming them to be correct, some are not and some have then copied the errors of others.
I have seen a Tree this week where someone is linking my earlier family to Dorset without the slightest scrap of evidence!
They have assumed that my 4 x Gt Grandfather was 20 years old when he married in 1815 and looked at the rounding down on the 1841 Census. Had they applied and got his Marriage Licence and Bond they would see that his age was 28, but the writing is so faint in the Register the 8 (in 28) looks like 20, but now I know it should be 28 years from the Licence, I can see in the Register it should read 28 years.
The 1841 Census does not agree with Dorset either. He was born in the same County, which should mean Yorkshire.
You need to get the paperwork and work back methodically step by step, using the Census (unless you are before the Census and Civil Registration (or the Census is one of the few images that are missing).
Mark
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Oh Ireland is more difficult.
You will need a Sign-in to Family Search, but I have been finding Irish Land Documents and other items here (including where the people have links to places in England) ...
https://www.familysearch.org/en/search/full-text/results?count=20&q.text=%22Dennis%20helsdon%22
There are a lot of links from here
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/irish-records/records/
I can't remember which link I used now, but managed to download some Civil Certificates images for free.
Mark
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The Julia nee Knox who died 21 Dec 1887 appears to be Julia Barlow (Family Search tree Williams tree)
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1887/06198/4772423.pdf
https://willcalendars.nationalarchives.ie/reels/cwa/005014902/005014902_00023.pdf
I think she married James Barlow in 1856 in Dublin
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/marriage_returns/marriages_1856/09509/5446418.pdf
The cert doesn’t indicate she was ever married to Williams
There is a second marriage of Julia Barlow nee Knox widow to William James Barlow 1859, possibly the same woman.
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/marriage_returns/marriages_1859/09577/5472514.pdf
But again nothing to indicate she was ever Williams.
As you said there are land records from the 1870s giving Julia Williams nee Knox, living in Limerick, no mention of Barlow. Than she seems to disappear.
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I have a lot of information about my great grandfather. I have his father's name, where he was born, who his sisters were. I know who he married and the names of his children. I have his marriage certificates and his death certificate. The one thing I've never found is any kind of record of his birth or baptism, and therefore I have never found anything that tells me his mother's name. I know his father was called William Campbell Williams or sometimes he was called Campbell William Williams. I know he was married to Julia Williams nee Knox There are several land transaction documents online that name the members of the family including my great grandfather. Not one of them specifically says Julia was his mother although she did leave him property. His name was John Andrew, the same as Julia's brother. He called his first daughter Maria Julia. One of his sisters was called Hannah Maria. I have DNA matches to people in the Knox family. Do you think this is enough evidence to conclude that Julia was his mother or should I keep looking?
The reason this is important to me is that if Julia was his mother, then her family goes back all the way to William the Conqueror. If his mother was Bridie from round the corner, then I'm probably descended from the local washerwoman. I'm not sure if I want the royal ancestors or not. They were pretty awful.
I had the same information about my Gt Grandfather as you (my Gt Grandfather was born 1884, the exact Birth date I didn't know to begin with) and my Gt Grandfather has a full Civil Birth Certificate which gives parentage.
Also have you found the relatives that you know are your actual relatives, in a Census yet?
It is no good looking at other Trees and assuming them to be correct, some are not and some have then copied the errors of others.
I have seen a Tree this week where someone is linking my earlier family to Dorset without the slightest scrap of evidence!
They have assumed that my 4 x Gt Grandfather was 20 years old when he married in 1815 and looked at the rounding down on the 1841 Census. Had they applied and got his Marriage Licence and Bond they would see that his age was 28, but the writing is so faint in the Register the 8 (in 28) looks like 20, but now I know it should be 28 years from the Licence, I can see in the Register it should read 28 years.
The 1841 Census does not agree with Dorset either. He was born in the same County, which should mean Yorkshire.
You need to get the paperwork and work back methodically step by step, using the Census (unless you are before the Census and Civil Registration (or the Census is one of the few images that are missing).
Mark
Mark.
Broadwinsor and West Bay harbour Dorset. Captian John Hood of Selby got to many ports.
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He was born in Queenstown which is now Cork, in 1840.
Queenstown is now Cobh.
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/6934508#map=12/51.8659/-8.3342
It will say Queenstown in the records as it wasn't called Cobh until 1922.
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Oh Ireland is more difficult.
You will need a Sign-in to Family Search, but I have been finding Irish Land Documents and other items here (including where the people have links to places in England) ...
https://www.familysearch.org/en/search/full-text/results?count=20&q.text=%22Dennis%20helsdon%22
There are a lot of links from here
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/irish-records/records/
I can't remember which link I used now, but managed to download some Civil Certificates images for free.
Mark
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/irish-records/records/
I used Search Records (Bar at top of screen, left button)
Then try a search under ... Section 61 of the Civil Registration Act, 2004
1901 and 1911 Census.
Census fragments and substitutes for 1821-51 available
Several types of Property records mentioned in the link.
We have trouble with an Irish born relative (deceased), we have a dated document he had with his Birth Name on, when he changed employment, giving the name he was born with. His family went to the USA and he outlived them by a short period.
I had the day off school and went to his funeral, saw him most weeks helping him in the garden and it never came across my mind to ask where were you born.
I collected up the papers and showed my Mum (then alive) this official letter and she said yes, that is his Birth name.
When he got married, he used a made up name.
Mark
Added: you are before Civil Registration.
Did any family leave Wills?
The property documents mentioned in the link and the Valuation might be useful?
I wonder what they mean when they say Census substitute?
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He was born in Queenstown which is now Cork, in 1840.
Queenstown is now Cobh.
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/6934508#map=12/51.8659/-8.3342
Apologies for hijacking this thread but a quick question about this. The earliest census info I have about my 3x great grandfather is the 1841 census in which it states he was 40 years old and born Ireland. Similar for 1851 & 1861. In 1871, the last before death, it says Ireland - Cork. Given the interchange between Cork/Queenstown, is his birth likely to have been actually in Cork or just County Cork?
Thanks, Pheno
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I have a lot of information about my great grandfather. I have his father's name, where he was born, who his sisters were. I know who he married and the names of his children. I have his marriage certificates and his death certificate. The one thing I've never found is any kind of record of his birth or baptism, and therefore I have never found anything that tells me his mother's name. I know his father was called William Campbell Williams or sometimes he was called Campbell William Williams. I know he was married to Julia Williams nee Knox There are several land transaction documents online that name the members of the family including my great grandfather. Not one of them specifically says Julia was his mother although she did leave him property. His name was John Andrew, the same as Julia's brother. He called his first daughter Maria Julia. One of his sisters was called Hannah Maria. I have DNA matches to people in the Knox family. Do you think this is enough evidence to conclude that Julia was his mother or should I keep looking?
The reason this is important to me is that if Julia was his mother, then her family goes back all the way to William the Conqueror. If his mother was Bridie from round the corner, then I'm probably descended from the local washerwoman. I'm not sure if I want the royal ancestors or not. They were pretty awful.
I had the same information about my Gt Grandfather as you (my Gt Grandfather was born 1884, the exact Birth date I didn't know to begin with) and my Gt Grandfather has a full Civil Birth Certificate which gives parentage.
Also have you found the relatives that you know are your actual relatives, in a Census yet?
It is no good looking at other Trees and assuming them to be correct, some are not and some have then copied the errors of others.
I have seen a Tree this week where someone is linking my earlier family to Dorset without the slightest scrap of evidence!
They have assumed that my 4 x Gt Grandfather was 20 years old when he married in 1815 and looked at the rounding down on the 1841 Census. Had they applied and got his Marriage Licence and Bond they would see that his age was 28, but the writing is so faint in the Register the 8 (in 28) looks like 20, but now I know it should be 28 years from the Licence, I can see in the Register it should read 28 years.
The 1841 Census does not agree with Dorset either. He was born in the same County, which should mean Yorkshire.
You need to get the paperwork and work back methodically step by step, using the Census (unless you are before the Census and Civil Registration (or the Census is one of the few images that are missing).
Mark
Mark.
Broadwinsor and West Bay harbour Dorset. Captian John Hood of Selby got to many ports.
I have 20 records and 28 sources that detail the whole family. The one thing I don't have is a document or entry in a document that says Julia Williams was his mother. I have a lot of information, but I'm being a bit picky. Not many people have my Great Grandfather in their family trees on Ancestry, and those that do only have one or two records. Some of my family have copied the information from my tree. I know the year of his birth. He died on 25th December 1910 at the age of 70. That makes his birth date 1840 or 26th to 31st December 1841. He appears on the 1861 and subsequent censuses in England, however, that doesn't mean he lived in England in 1861. He was a boarder, and he was a marine engineer, so it could have been a temporary resident while he was in port. I have legal document that include the family names, including Julia his mother. Wikitree says it's likely that I share autosomal dna with another person who is linked to Julia, and I am likely to share dna with two people linked to her mother. I will see if I can get a copy of John Andrew's engineering certificate, but I think the legal documents and the dna, plus the fact that Julia was married to his father, and that John Andrew sold land to his sister Hannah Maria, pretty much shows that Julia was his mother.
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Oh Ireland is more difficult.
You will need a Sign-in to Family Search, but I have been finding Irish Land Documents and other items here (including where the people have links to places in England) ...
https://www.familysearch.org/en/search/full-text/results?count=20&q.text=%22Dennis%20helsdon%22
The land documents are brilliant. The AI transcripts are bit off sometimes, but you get so much information from them that you can't get from other records.
There are a lot of links from here
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/irish-records/records/
I can't remember which link I used now, but managed to download some Civil Certificates images for free.
Mark
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/irish-records/records/
I used Search Records (Bar at top of screen, left button)
Then try a search under ... Section 61 of the Civil Registration Act, 2004
1901 and 1911 Census.
Census fragments and substitutes for 1821-51 available
Several types of Property records mentioned in the link.
We have trouble with an Irish born relative (deceased), we have a dated document he had with his Birth Name on, when he changed employment, giving the name he was born with. His family went to the USA and he outlived them by a short period.
I had the day off school and went to his funeral, saw him most weeks helping him in the garden and it never came across my mind to ask where were you born.
I collected up the papers and showed my Mum (then alive) this official letter and she said yes, that is his Birth name.
When he got married, he used a made up name.
Mark
Added: you are before Civil Registration.
Did any family leave Wills?
The property documents mentioned in the link and Valuation might be useful?
I wonder what they mean when they say Census substitute?
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(From Google Search)
Irish census substitutes are surviving records from local, often 18th and 19th-century, surveys that list individuals or households, providing valuable information similar to a census to help researchers fill gaps left by lost national census records.
Key Examples of Irish Census Substitutes
• Griffith's Valuation (Primary Valuation of Ireland): A comprehensive, nationwide survey from 1847-1864 valuing property for poor law taxation, covering nearly every property in Ireland.
• Tithe Applotment Books: A survey between 1823 and 1838 to assess tithes on agricultural land, listing landholders responsible for the tax.
• 1766 Religious Census: Lists Protestant households in various areas, providing religious data for the time.
• Flax Growers' Lists (1796): Lists farmers who grew flax for the linen industry.
• Hearth Money Rolls (1663): An early record of households, based on the tax for having a hearth.
• Localised Surveys and Fragments: These include early census fragments, electoral registers, and Landed Estate Court Rentals from the mid-19th century.
Where to find them
• National Archives of Ireland:
Holds records such as the Tithe Applotment Books and fragments of earlier censuses.
• Public Record Office of Northern Ireland (PRONI):
Includes records like the 1918 Absent Voters List.
• Findmypast:
Offers online access to various records, including Landed Estate Court Rentals and fragments of the 1749 Census of Elphin.
• FamilySearch:
Provides resources and guides on using these substitutes for genealogical research.
• Roots Ireland:
A dedicated resource for Irish genealogy, including sections on census substitutes by
~~~~~~~~~~~
(Sometimes old fashioned summary of comparing records with commonsense is the best record)
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(From Google Search)
Irish census substitutes are surviving records from local, often 18th and 19th-century, surveys that list individuals or households, providing valuable information similar to a census to help researchers fill gaps left by lost national census records.
Key Examples of Irish Census Substitutes
• Griffith's Valuation (Primary Valuation of Ireland): A comprehensive, nationwide survey from 1847-1864 valuing property for poor law taxation, covering nearly every property in Ireland.
• Tithe Applotment Books: A survey between 1823 and 1838 to assess tithes on agricultural land, listing landholders responsible for the tax.
• 1766 Religious Census: Lists Protestant households in various areas, providing religious data for the time.
• Flax Growers' Lists (1796): Lists farmers who grew flax for the linen industry.
• Hearth Money Rolls (1663): An early record of households, based on the tax for having a hearth.
• Localised Surveys and Fragments: These include early census fragments, electoral registers, and Landed Estate Court Rentals from the mid-19th century.
Where to find them
• National Archives of Ireland:
Holds records such as the Tithe Applotment Books and fragments of earlier censuses.
• Public Record Office of Northern Ireland (PRONI):
Includes records like the 1918 Absent Voters List.
• Findmypast:
Offers online access to various records, including Landed Estate Court Rentals and fragments of the 1749 Census of Elphin.
• FamilySearch:
Provides resources and guides on using these substitutes for genealogical research.
• Roots Ireland:
A dedicated resource for Irish genealogy, including sections on census substitutes by
~~~~~~~~~~~
(Sometimes old fashioned summary of comparing records with commonsense is the best record)
Wow, thank you. That's a lot to look at. I have some Griffiths valuations in the sources for some people in the tree. I have the relevant censuses in England from 1861, but no Irish equivalents before that. My family lived at 47 Baggot Street in Dublin for many years so they shouldn't be hard to find in the records. Number 47 is even on the family headstone.
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I wonder what they mean when they say Census substitute?
Among other things.
https://censussearchforms.nationalarchives.ie/search/cs/home.jsp
Search forms from searches of the 1841 and 1851 census to help people qualify for the old age pension as they wouldn't have had birth certs before these censuses were lost.
This link is good for NAI genealogy records
https://genealogy.nationalarchives.ie/
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(From Google Search)
Irish census substitutes are surviving records from local, often 18th and 19th-century, surveys that list individuals or households, providing valuable information similar to a census to help researchers fill gaps left by lost national census records.
Key Examples of Irish Census Substitutes
• Griffith's Valuation (Primary Valuation of Ireland): A comprehensive, nationwide survey from 1847-1864 valuing property for poor law taxation, covering nearly every property in Ireland.
• Tithe Applotment Books: A survey between 1823 and 1838 to assess tithes on agricultural land, listing landholders responsible for the tax.
• 1766 Religious Census: Lists Protestant households in various areas, providing religious data for the time.
• Flax Growers' Lists (1796): Lists farmers who grew flax for the linen industry.
• Hearth Money Rolls (1663): An early record of households, based on the tax for having a hearth.
• Localised Surveys and Fragments: These include early census fragments, electoral registers, and Landed Estate Court Rentals from the mid-19th century.
Where to find them
• National Archives of Ireland:
Holds records such as the Tithe Applotment Books and fragments of earlier censuses.
• Public Record Office of Northern Ireland (PRONI):
Includes records like the 1918 Absent Voters List.
• Findmypast:
Offers online access to various records, including Landed Estate Court Rentals and fragments of the 1749 Census of Elphin.
• FamilySearch:
Provides resources and guides on using these substitutes for genealogical research.
• Roots Ireland:
A dedicated resource for Irish genealogy, including sections on census substitutes by
~~~~~~~~~~~
(Sometimes old fashioned summary of comparing records with commonsense is the best record)
Wow, thank you. That's a lot to look at. I have some Griffiths valuations in the sources for some people in the tree. I have the relevant censuses in England from 1861, but no Irish equivalents before that. My family lived at 47 Baggot Street in Dublin for many years so they shouldn't be hard to find in the records. Number 47 is even on the family headstone.
It will keep you busy a while.
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I was wondering who the Henry Molony that appears in the land records with Julia was and if he would lead to her death.
Hannah Maria Taylor is one of his executors and informant on his death cert, with the same address.
278 https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1888/06169/4763395.pdf
right hand page
https://willcalendars.nationalarchives.ie/reels/cwa/005014902/005014902_00276.pdf
Still no joy with Julia.
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I was wondering who the Henry Molony that appears in the land records with Julia was and if he would lead to her death.
Hannah Maria Taylor is one of his executors and informant on his death cert, with the same address.
278 https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1888/06169/4763395.pdf
right hand page
https://willcalendars.nationalarchives.ie/reels/cwa/005014902/005014902_00276.pdf
Still no joy with Julia.
Henry Molony was Julia's sister's husband. He had his finger in every pie. Show him a bit of land or money and he was there. We all have a relative like that. I have Julia's death as 1887. I think I got it from a family tree and failed to record the source.
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I was wondering who the Henry Molony that appears in the land records with Julia was and if he would lead to her death.
Hannah Maria Taylor is one of his executors and informant on his death cert, with the same address.
278 https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1888/06169/4763395.pdf
right hand page
https://willcalendars.nationalarchives.ie/reels/cwa/005014902/005014902_00276.pdf
Still no joy with Julia.
Henry Molony was Julia's sister's husband. He had his finger in every pie. Show him a bit of land or money and he was there. We all have a relative like that. I have Julia's death as 1887. I think I got it from a family tree and failed to record the source.
I’m fairly sure that’s not her, think two Julia Knox are mixed up, see post #17 about Julia Barlow nee Knox, her date of death 21 Dec 1887 is on a FamilySearch tree as the date Julia Williams died with source as the Will Calendars.
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Julia had a niece called Julia. Her niece married James Barlow and when he died she married his cousin who was also called James Barlow. I did wonder if it was her death in 1887. Julia died after 1876. Her name is in one of the land transactions along with that of John Andrew Williams who is the recipient of life estates and interests.
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Could Julia have gone over to John Andrew in England and died there?
Would be a great find if he was informant on her death certificate as son.
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I've checked the GRO indexes but didn't find anything. The only real information I have is that she died after 1876. I may look at the indexes again, but in 1876 John had a lot on his plate. His first wife died and her sister went to live with him and to look after his little daughter. It could be that his mother went to England to help out. She isn't on the 1881 census for England. John ended up marrying the sister and they were my grandfather's parents.
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The Julia nee Knox who died 21 Dec 1887 appears to be Julia Barlow (Family Search tree Williams tree)
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1887/06198/4772423.pdf
https://willcalendars.nationalarchives.ie/reels/cwa/005014902/005014902_00023.pdf
I think she married James Barlow in 1856 in Dublin
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/marriage_returns/marriages_1856/09509/5446418.pdf
The cert doesn’t indicate she was ever married to Williams
There is a second marriage of Julia Barlow nee Knox widow to William James Barlow 1859, possibly the same woman.
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/marriage_returns/marriages_1859/09577/5472514.pdf
But again nothing to indicate she was ever Williams.
As you said there are land records from the 1870s giving Julia Williams nee Knox, living in Limerick, no mention of Barlow. Than she seems to disappear.
As far as I'm aware ? Julia Knox (Later Williams) was born 1811 and would have been aged 76 in 1887
The Julia Barlow nee Knox death 21 st Dec 1887 was aged 52 was born 1835
So the 21st Dec 1887 Julia Knox (Barlow) was not Julia Williams nee knox born 1811 widow of Campbell Williams who died 1848
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No, that was Julia's niece, her brother's daughter. She was called Julia Knox and then she married the Barlows. I haven't got the birth and death dates for her. I don't have anything to verify Julia Wiliams' date of death, only the legal document that says,
'Henry Molony and his assigns during his life and after his decease in case the said Julia Williams should survive him should pay the said rents issues and profits subject as aforesaid unto such person or persons for such intents and purposes as the said Julia Williams should from time to time appoint as therein mentioned , and reciting that that the said Henry Molony and Julia Williams were desirous of relinquishing to the said John Andrew Williams their respective life estates and interests in the said messuage and hereditamed thereinafter described.'
The document was signed in March 1876, so Julia's death was after that.
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Sinann can you find anything to add to this event as you seem to know the Ireland records
Julia Williams
Principal
Ireland, Civil Registration Indexes, 1845-1958
Death Registration 1876 aged 65
Middleton, County Cork, Ireland
Birth 1811
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FR19-162?lang=en
Middleton is there about 15miles from Cobh or Queenstown
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Midleton,+Co.+Cork,+Ireland/@51.8737613,-8.2829875,11z/data=!4m6!3m5!1s0x4843632e5ff561e1:0xa00c7a997319f70!8m2!3d51.9143321!4d-8.1726276!16zL20vMDNidDNi?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDkwOC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
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The family all lived in Dublin. It was only John who was born in Queenstown in 1840. Campbell Williams was a Dublin solicitor. I don't know if there was a family connection in Queenstown, but there are no other records of any of the family having anyone in Cork. I'll check the Knox family genealogy.
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The family all lived in Dublin. It was only John who was born in Queenstown in 1840. Campbell Williams was a Dublin solicitor. I don't know if there was a family connection in Queenstown, but there are no other records of any of the family having anyone in Cork. I'll check the Knox family genealogy.
Well if you think about it Campbell Williams and wife Julia was in Queenstown in 1840/1841 when John Andrew Williams was born, then Campbell dies 8 years later in 1848 his job kept him in Dublin, so what does Julia do after her husbands death, if there was nothing to keep her in Dublin and maybe went back to Cork area.
The dates fit on this Middleton Julia death 1876,
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Berlin, Germany, Deaths, 1874-1955,
Record details
Name Julia Willianus
Gender weiblich (Female)
Death Place Berlin, Berlin, Deutschland (Germany)
Spouse Camzbelll Willianus
Child Henriette Hartmann
I don't have international access to the Ancestry records. It doesn't give a date, which is annoying.
-
I was wondering who the Henry Molony that appears in the land records with Julia was and if he would lead to her death.
Hannah Maria Taylor is one of his executors and informant on his death cert, with the same address.
278 https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1888/06169/4763395.pdf
right hand page
https://willcalendars.nationalarchives.ie/reels/cwa/005014902/005014902_00276.pdf
Still no joy with Julia.
Hannah Maria Taylor was Hannah Maria Williams daughter of Campbell & Julia Williams
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=778193.9
reply #14
At Christ Church, Newcastle, 3rd inst., by the Rev. W. L. Kaye, Mr. Benjamin Taylor, ship owner, to Hannah Maria, eldest daughter of the late Campbell William Williams, Esq., solicitor, Dublin.
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Berlin, Germany, Deaths, 1874-1955,
Record details
Name Julia Willianus
Gender weiblich (Female)
Death Place Berlin, Berlin, Deutschland (Germany)
Spouse Camzbelll Willianus
Child Henriette Hartmann
I don't have international access to the Ancestry records. It doesn't give a date, which is annoying.
Well its got Camzbell Willianus so it must be the right death.
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Hannah Maria was my great grandfather's sister. He conveyed some land to her in 1901. Julia died in Berlin and I don't have access to the international records. I'm far to tight to pay for it.
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Berlin, Germany, Deaths, 1874-1955,
Record details
Name Julia Willianus
Gender weiblich (Female)
Death Place Berlin, Berlin, Deutschland (Germany)
Spouse Camzbelll Willianus
Child Henriette Hartmann
I don't have international access to the Ancestry records. It doesn't give a date, which is annoying.
Well its got Camzbell Willianus so it must be the right death.
Henriette was Julia and Campbell's daughter. She married a German man called August Hartmann and they went to live in Berlin.
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Your family tree is expanding into geography not just ancestry. ;D
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Sinann can you find anything to add to this event as you seem to know the Ireland records
Julia Williams
Principal
Ireland, Civil Registration Indexes, 1845-1958
Death Registration 1876 aged 65
Middleton, County Cork, Ireland
Birth 1811
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FR19-162?lang=en
Middleton is there about 15miles from Cobh or Queenstown
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Midleton,+Co.+Cork,+Ireland/@51.8737613,-8.2829875,11z/data=!4m6!3m5!1s0x4843632e5ff561e1:0xa00c7a997319f70!8m2!3d51.9143321!4d-8.1726276!16zL20vMDNidDNi?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDkwOC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
Clearly the Julia we want died in Berlin but just to cover any doubt, this Julia was a blacksmith’s wife.
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1876/020573/7219126.pdf
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Sinann can you find anything to add to this event as you seem to know the Ireland records
Julia Williams
Principal
Ireland, Civil Registration Indexes, 1845-1958
Death Registration 1876 aged 65
Middleton, County Cork, Ireland
Birth 1811
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FR19-162?lang=en
Middleton is there about 15miles from Cobh or Queenstown
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Midleton,+Co.+Cork,+Ireland/@51.8737613,-8.2829875,11z/data=!4m6!3m5!1s0x4843632e5ff561e1:0xa00c7a997319f70!8m2!3d51.9143321!4d-8.1726276!16zL20vMDNidDNi?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDkwOC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
Clearly the Julia we want died in Berlin but just to cover any doubt, this Julia was a blacksmith’s wife.
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1876/020573/7219126.pdf
It needed checking out being this Julia's birth year was same as Julia Knox 1811 before the Berlin death was found.
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Your family tree is expanding into geography not just ancestry. ;D
A lot of my family live in Australia, some live in the USA and some are here in England. I will see if I can get a digital copy of the death certificate through the German authorities. I'm sure chatGTP will help with that.
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1 Question - where was the 2 sisters Hannah Maria (Taylor) and Henriette (of Berlin ) born and years of birth
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Hannah Maria 1829
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/church/d-298-2-2-032.pdf
No image for Henrietta but 1836
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/view/?record_id=35f0da5162-1135
Julia Williams 1830
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/view/?record_id=9fccfa1155-62842
Georgina 1832
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/view/?record_id=9fccfa1155-63338
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Hannah Maria 1829
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/church/d-298-2-2-032.pdf
No image for Henrietta but 1836
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/view/?record_id=35f0da5162-1135
Julia Williams 1830
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/view/?record_id=9fccfa1155-62842
Georgina 1832
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/view/?record_id=9fccfa1155-63338
Thank you. Yes, that's my family. I have them all in my tree.
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Berlin, Germany, Deaths, 1874-1955,
Record details
Name Julia Willianus
Gender weiblich (Female)
Death Place Berlin, Berlin, Deutschland (Germany)
Spouse Camzbelll Willianus
Child Henriette Hartmann
I don't have international access to the Ancestry records. It doesn't give a date, which is annoying.
I don't read German, however I think this is the death of Henriette HARTMAN on 16 April 1914, aged 77. It mentions her parents Campbell WILLIAMS and Julia [?].
Happy to send you a copy if you would like to see it. (not sure whether copyright allows us to post the whole image here?)
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Yes, I'd love a copy please if you can send it. Julia went to live with her daughter and son-in-law in Germany.
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Hannah Maria 1829
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/church/d-298-2-2-032.pdf
No image for Henrietta but 1836
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/view/?record_id=35f0da5162-1135
Julia Williams 1830
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/view/?record_id=9fccfa1155-62842
Georgina 1832
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/view/?record_id=9fccfa1155-63338
Thank you. Yes, that's my family. I have them all in my tree.
All Dublin baptisms! then why Queenstown -? with no baptism for John Andrew Williams 1840 and his father Campbell Williams a solicitor renowned for accurate paperwork (was John Andrew Williams adopted or fostered ( still springs to mind ) being brought up by Campbell -?)
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Until there is a DNA inheritance pathway all the citations, documents, certificates et al are just that a paper trail, that may or may not be correct.
A MRCA with their births c1800 and more recent can and should be validated via DNA tests which prove the relationship pathways.
Good luck in your quest.
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The family have discussed the possibility that he was illegitimate, or adopted. The one thing I've never been sure about was whether he was actually born in Queenstown. The 1861 census says he was a boarder and puts the birthplace as Queenstown. John was a marine engineer and Queenstown was a huge port. It's likely the landlord would have completed the form for all of the boarders. It could be that either landlord just put Queenstown because that was the port where he had come from. We'll never know about that. On the 1871 census he is a visitor and whoever completed the form put Cork, Ireland. On the subsequent forms John is head of the family and has just put Ireland for the place of birth. I can't think why Campbell would wanted to adopt a baby when his mother had already had four children. John was born in 1840 so Julia would only have been 29 when he was born. If they had adopted a baby they would have changed the names to John Andrew. This was the name of one of Julia's brothers. I just can't see a young woman wanting to adopt a baby when she's perfectly capable of having babies herself. She would not only have adopted him but she also left him her money. It wouldn't have gone down very well with the rest of the family, especially as if was left to them to look after their mother in her old age.
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Until there is a DNA inheritance pathway all the citations, documents, certificates et al are just that a paper trail, that may or may not be correct.
A MRCA with their births c1800 and more recent can and should be validated via DNA tests which prove the relationship pathways.
Good luck in your quest.
I have dna links with the Knox family.
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I will be going through all of the DNA matches on Ancestry where they share a common ancestor. In the end it comes down to their research being correct as well as mine. There are several matches back to our common ancestors in that line, and provided the person is correct in that someone is really their ancestor and hasn't just copied from family tree, then I can safely say that John Andrew was the biological son of Julia Knox. There would be no other way of being a match otherwise. The paper trail has to be correct as we don't have DNA samples from our ancestors.
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The family have discussed the possibility that he was illegitimate, or adopted. The one thing I've never been sure about was whether he was actually born in Queenstown. The 1861 census says he was a boarder and puts the birthplace as Queenstown. John was a marine engineer and Queenstown was a huge port. It's likely the landlord would have completed the form for all of the boarders. It could be that either landlord just put Queenstown because that was the port where he had come from. We'll never know about that. On the 1871 census he is a visitor and whoever completed the form put Cork, Ireland. On the subsequent forms John is head of the family and has just put Ireland for the place of birth. I can't think why Campbell would wanted to adopt a baby when his mother had already had four children. John was born in 1840 so Julia would only have been 29 when he was born. If they had adopted a baby they would have changed the names to John Andrew. This was the name of one of Julia's brothers. I just can't see a young woman wanting to adopt a baby when she's perfectly capable of having babies herself. She would not only have adopted him but she also left him her money. It wouldn't have gone down very well with the rest of the family, especially as if was left to them to look after their mother in her old age.
First what ran through my mind was maybe Campbell had a client who could not bring up son, say a poor person who lost his wife in child birth, rather than see the child put in an orphanage he adopted the boy himself with having so many girls - there could be many reasons.
If you stem from John Andrew Williams and you have DNA to the link Julia Knox (Williams) descendants - well that should prove the link back.
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I need to check that the DNA links have been researched correctly. I have matches with 3rd and 4th cousins and we link back to the Knox family. I still need to make sure that they have good sources to confirm that our common ancestor really is their common ancestor.
One other thing I remembered. When I was about 18 I was engaged to a member of the aristocracy. That prompted me to ask my mother if we had any aristocracy in our family and she said we had, but she didn't know who they were.
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This aristocracy thing in ancestry trees always reminds me of the film Titanic with the first class aristocracy passengers sat making sure the knives, forks and spoons was laid out correct & properly, while playing one upmanship, while the Irish steerage passengers were enjoying themselves dancing.
Kate Winslet as character Rose chose the Irish folk over the posh mob. ;D
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I've checked dna matches on Ancestry and found errors in the family trees. I've also checked dna matches on Wikitree and found that I match descendants of people in the Julia (Knox)Williams tree. I woudn't be a dna match if John Andrew wasn't her son. I haven't been able to find a baptismal record for anyone anywhere in Ireland with that name. I suspect the baptism either wasn't recorded (clerical error) or it hasn't been digitised. Julia was the daughter of a Reverend and I think she would have had her son baptised.
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The church register in Queenstown could have been damaged, or the edges of the paper page worn at the top and bottom of a page that had written single line entries rubbed off, or register covering 1840 left on a shelf and forgotten about, or damage in a fire or just lost in time.
If you have made the DNA link match to Julia Knox and your DNA to Julia Knox was through John Andrew Williams your great granddad - so you have your result and as a bonus you found Julia Williams nee Knox death place and in time hopefully the date.
Well done :)
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I will be going through all of the DNA matches on Ancestry where they share a common ancestor. In the end it comes down to their research being correct as well as mine. There are several matches back to our common ancestors in that line, and provided the person is correct in that someone is really their ancestor and hasn't just copied from family tree, then I can safely say that John Andrew was the biological son of Julia Knox. There would be no other way of being a match otherwise. The paper trail has to be correct as we don't have DNA samples from our ancestors.
Yes, I agree with your 2nd sentence.
You could have a 100% dna match, but if either party has gone wrong just once, in their paper trail research, DNA matches prove nothing.
Somewhere I posted a link to the Leicester University research of the King found buried under the Leicester Car Park.
I believe considerable time was spent looking for sources, finding documents and then visiting archives to see them.
--------------------
A line from my Family Tree (who married an Arundel), it was claimed their family name was related to the Earl and when she married they even named a son Bernard, but with the middle name Pearson (it makes no sense).
However, the family folklore may have been just to cover up for a 19th Century illegitimate Birth of theirs (recorded on the baptism register as illegitimate), but the Mother did appear to marry the Father according to the Census, but some folklore may be true.
Mark
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A copy of Campbell Williams Will being a solicitor would be an interesting read. (if one survived) or Julia Williams nee Knox if she left one.
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I've checked dna matches on Ancestry and found errors in the family trees.
I've also checked dna matches on Wikitree and found that I match descendants of people in the Julia (Knox)Williams tree. I woudn't be a dna match if John Andrew wasn't her son. I haven't been able to find a baptismal record for anyone anywhere in Ireland with that name. I suspect the baptism either wasn't recorded (clerical error) or it hasn't been digitised. Julia was the daughter of a Reverend and I think she would have had her son baptised.
This is precisely why researchers should not rely solely on documents, citations etc all it takes is one error and the branch is essentially useless.
DNA is the key to unlocking the truth, irrespective of what others may post to the contrary.
At distant relationships there may be no DNA inherited, and at low cM there may be false positives but above 20cM shared then that is the cut off that I use in adding DNA Cousins to our family tree it is a reasonable deduction to make. With “Low Shared cM” and yes documents and citations are IMO required to substantiate the relationship and even as low as 7cM have been successfully included in our tree.
You are doing well and all looks very good for you solving the mystery.
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The church register in Queenstown could have been damaged, or the edges of the paper page worn at the top and bottom of a page that had written single line entries rubbed off, or register covering 1840 left on a shelf and forgotten about, or damage in a fire or just lost in time.
The COI register for Queenstown AKA Clonmel Cloyne aren’t online, they are code yellow and key M
See
https://www.churchofireland.org/cmsfiles/pdf/AboutUs/library/registers/ParishRegisters/PARISHREGISTERS.pdf
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I've checked dna matches on Ancestry and found errors in the family trees.
I've also checked dna matches on Wikitree and found that I match descendants of people in the Julia (Knox)Williams tree. I woudn't be a dna match if John Andrew wasn't her son. I haven't been able to find a baptismal record for anyone anywhere in Ireland with that name. I suspect the baptism either wasn't recorded (clerical error) or it hasn't been digitised. Julia was the daughter of a Reverend and I think she would have had her son baptised.
This is precisely why researchers should not rely solely on documents, citations etc all it takes is one error and the branch is essentially useless.
DNA is the key to unlocking the truth, irrespective of what others may post to the contrary.
At distant relationships there may be no DNA inherited, and at low cM there may be false positives but above 20cM shared then that is the cut off that I use in adding DNA Cousins to our family tree it is a reasonable deduction to make. With “Low Shared cM” and yes documents and citations are IMO required to substantiate the relationship and even as low as 7cM have been successfully included in our tree.
You are doing well and all looks very good for you solving the mystery.
That one error could be the milkman ;) while hubby was at work! ;D
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The church register in Queenstown could have been damaged, or the edges of the paper page worn at the top and bottom of a page that had written single line entries rubbed off, or register covering 1840 left on a shelf and forgotten about, or damage in a fire or just lost in time.
If you have made the DNA link match to Julia Knox and your DNA to Julia Knox was through John Andrew Williams your great granddad - so you have your result and as a bonus you found Julia Williams nee Knox death place and in time hopefully the date.
Well done :)
I don't know that the baptism was in Queenstown and I'm sceptical about the birth being there as well. The family came from Dublin and they lived in Dublin. I think the record either hasn't been digitised or it wasn't recorded. There isn't a record in the whole of Ireland for anyone at all with that name being baptised. The only other explanation is that the name was changed, but that wouldn't explain the apparent DNA connection. If he was Julia and Campbell's only son it sounds as if they really wanted to name him after Julia's brother. It's likely t o remain a mystery.
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I've checked dna matches on Ancestry and found errors in the family trees.
I've also checked dna matches on Wikitree and found that I match descendants of people in the Julia (Knox)Williams tree. I woudn't be a dna match if John Andrew wasn't her son. I haven't been able to find a baptismal record for anyone anywhere in Ireland with that name. I suspect the baptism either wasn't recorded (clerical error) or it hasn't been digitised. Julia was the daughter of a Reverend and I think she would have had her son baptised.
This is precisely why researchers should not rely solely on documents, citations etc all it takes is one error and the branch is essentially useless.
DNA is the key to unlocking the truth, irrespective of what others may post to the contrary.
At distant relationships there may be no DNA inherited, and at low cM there may be false positives but above 20cM shared then that is the cut off that I use in adding DNA Cousins to our family tree it is a reasonable deduction to make. With “Low Shared cM” and yes documents and citations are IMO required to substantiate the relationship and even as low as 7cM have been successfully included in our tree.
You are doing well and all looks very good for you solving the mystery.
That one error could be the milkman ;) while hubby was at work! ;D
Or in my case, it was the Butcher.
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The church register in Queenstown could have been damaged, or the edges of the paper page worn at the top and bottom of a page that had written single line entries rubbed off, or register covering 1840 left on a shelf and forgotten about, or damage in a fire or just lost in time.
If you have made the DNA link match to Julia Knox and your DNA to Julia Knox was through John Andrew Williams your great granddad - so you have your result and as a bonus you found Julia Williams nee Knox death place and in time hopefully the date.
Well done :)
I don't know that the baptism was in Queenstown and I'm sceptical about the birth being there as well. The family came from Dublin and they lived in Dublin. I think the record either hasn't been digitised or it wasn't recorded. There isn't a record in the whole of Ireland for anyone at all with that name being baptised. The only other explanation is that the name was changed, but that wouldn't explain the apparent DNA connection. If he was Julia and Campbell's only son it sounds as if they really wanted to name him after Julia's brother. It's likely t o remain a mystery.
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The National library of Ireland has the Catholic register as for Cobh
Cobh Parish (Diocese of Cloyne, Ireland: Catholic) county Cork
1827 to 1863 (See link)
https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000633022
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1827 to 1863 (See link)
https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000633022
Cobh
Diocese of Cloyne | County of Cork
Variant forms of parish name:
Queenstown
Baptisms 1812-1880
Marriages 1812-1880
https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0036
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The National library of Ireland has the Catholic register as for Cobh
Cobh Parish (Diocese of Cloyne, Ireland: Catholic) county Cork
1827 to 1863 (See link)
https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000633022
He wasn't Catholic and I don't think he would have been baptised in Cobh. His Grandfather was the vicar of St Catherines in Dublin and he would most likely have been baptised there. I have a 26cM match with people in the Knox family. Anything over 20 centiMorgans is considered to be significant, so he's unlikely to be the son of Bridie from round the corner. I have no celtic Irish in my DNA, but I do have 29% Scottish. My Irish ancestors were landed gentry and nobiity who originated from Scotland and England.
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He wasn't Catholic and I don't think he would have been baptised in Cobh. His Grandfather was the vicar of St Catherines in Dublin and he would most likely have been baptised there. I have a 26cM match with people in the Knox family. Anything over 20 centiMorgans is considered to be significant, so he's unlikely to be the son of Bridie from round the corner. I have no celtic Irish in my DNA, but I do have 29% Scottish. My Irish ancestors were landed gentry and nobiity who originated from Scotland and England.
I only got thru 4 or 5 pages of this 9 page exposition. But I don't understand why there is any question at all. OP stated in the very first post, and restates here that there is a DNA link to the appropriate Knox family.
QED. End of story, nothing to see here, move along......
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For my Birthday a couple of years ago my Wife bought me a book “Tracing Your Irish Ancestors”.
On one of the early pages the text said “if you are researching before 1865 …… good luck”.
Irish records are incomplete and fickle and it is very easy to get stuck on a location just because of a name.
Go with DNA, if there are “paper” records as well then that is all well and good.
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I have a lot of information about my great grandfather. I have his father's name, where he was born, who his sisters were. I know who he married and the names of his children. I have his marriage certificates and his death certificate. The one thing I've never found is any kind of record of his birth or baptism, and therefore I have never found anything that tells me his mother's name. I know his father was called William Campbell Williams or sometimes he was called Campbell William Williams. I know he was married to Julia Williams nee Knox There are several land transaction documents online that name the members of the family including my great grandfather. Not one of them specifically says Julia was his mother although she did leave him property. His name was John Andrew, the same as Julia's brother. He called his first daughter Maria Julia. One of his sisters was called Hannah Maria. I have DNA matches to people in the Knox family. Do you think this is enough evidence to conclude that Julia was his mother or should I keep looking?
The reason this is important to me is that if Julia was his mother, then her family goes back all the way to William the Conqueror. If his mother was Bridie from round the corner, then I'm probably descended from the local washerwoman. I'm not sure if I want the royal ancestors or not. They were pretty awful.
Campbell William Williams and Julia Knox were recorded as getting married in Dublin in 1827.
There are 16 family trees on Ancestry with the so you may like to compare what they have with the info you have.
DNA can validate the lines if you can populate and verify each person with the usual records.
One tree has Hannah Maria b1829 and Julia b1830.
Hello
I am not sure if you have this, nor if it has been spotted already and I hope I have scrolled back to the correct title page to get the Directory Year.
Pettigrew & Oulton's Directory
Published Dublin [believed to be 1838]
Baggot Street. Lower
47 Robert Williams, Surgeon
" Campbell William Williams, Attorney
" H. G. Grady, Solicitor
Two with the surname WILLIAMS at the same address, a relative or coincidence?
If he was a relative, you have another person to go at?
Also attached is unumbered [page 543] (between pages 542 & 544 Religions of Dublin, on the film).
The Directory is recorded as damaged and also appears to be disbound according to the images.
Mark
ADDED:
Reply #12 mentions a George Williams, of that address, it seems?
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=778193.msg6321018#msg6321018
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1820 Directory. 1820 to 1822 Edition
George Williams, Esq., 47 Baggot Street Dublin
Mark
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Here is part of the 1835 Dublin Ireland Registration mentioning Campbell William Williams and Julia Knox and some of their connections ...
... Campbell William & Julia Williams otherwise Knox ...
Entered in the Register in the Registry Office Dublin 4th December 1835 and No. 206 (several book openings)
Several openings, cannot post a page in full due to size limit and reducing them will make them difficult to read.
Mark
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1825 Burgh & others to Williams & others
... George Williams of Baggot Street in the said City of Dublin Esq'r Mary Williams his Wife and Margaret Evans of the Town of Clonmel in the County of Tipperary Widow of the second Part ...
George Williams repeated later in document and a reference to Campbell William Williams of Baggot Street in the City of Dublin Esq
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I thought the point of the thread was to find some sort of written record to add to the DNA and records already found which would state Julia was John Andrew’s mother.
The problem I think is the lack of COI records online. They are (we were told) working on putting them online but it’s a slow process and no word of when yet.
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I believed the original poster was stuck at Campbell William Williams Esq'r who married Julia Knox in Dublin.
The 1838 Dublin Street Directory lists an address for a Campbell William Williams as 47 Baggot Street, Dublin and an earlier 1820 Directory has a George Williams, Esq., at that address. Reply #77 & 78.
Attachments in Reply #79 do mention Campbell William Williams and his Wife Julia Williams, previously Knox and other Knox?
In the attachment Reply #80 if George Williams Esq of Baggot Street in the City of Dublin, was the Father of Campbell William Williams (also mentioned, but relationship not noted) his Wife at the time of the document was Mary Williams.
Of course some people marry more than once.
1833 George Williams of Baggot Street City of Dublin
1833 Margaret Evans Bargain and Sold to George Williams, land held by him in the Barony of Middlethird & County of Tipperary by virtue of a Lease dated 1816 for 21 years.
Comment
This link to William the Conqueror has been claimed before in relation to the Knox family, by using a family taking the surname Knox (assuming it).
But even if you can go back to a famous Knox, that would be quite something.
Mark
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Documents relating to the family of Campbell William Williams of the City of Dublin who had married Julia Knox, mention other Knox, also Wilson and Bouchier and others.
At first glance looking at Julia Knox, seeing the surname Bouchier mentioned might be something to follow up? See snippets of documents in Reply #79.
Bouchier were significant Landowners in Ireland by 1800 and an unverified source says significant Landowners since Elizabethan times (Eliz I).
Mark
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Deleted
Sorry I clicked on the wrong post quote
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I believed the original poster was stuck at Campbell William Williams Esq'r who married Julia Knox in Dublin.
The 1838 Dublin Street Directory lists an address for a Campbell William Williams as 47 Baggot Street, Dublin and an earlier 1820 Directory has a George Williams, Esq., at that address. Reply #77 & 78.
Attachments in Reply #79 do mention Campbell William Williams and his Wife Julia Williams, previously Knox and other Knox?
In the attachment Reply #80 if George Williams Esq of Baggot Street in the City of Dublin, was the Father of Campbell William Williams (also mentioned, but relationship not noted) his Wife at the time of the document was Mary Williams.
Of course some people marry more than once.
1833 George Williams of Baggot Street City of Dublin
1833 Margaret Evans Bargain and Sold to George Williams, land held by him in the Barony of Middlethird & County of Tipperary by virtue of a Lease dated 1816 for 21 years.
Comment
This link to William the Conqueror has been claimed before in relation to the Knox family and a family taking the name Knox (assuming it).
But even if you can go back to a famous Knox, that would be quite something.
Mark
Its usually only the very noble aristocracy, or very remote places or parishes with baptisms entered in family bibles (like an Islands off the main coastland ) that can claim to go back further back than pre parish registers or pre mid 1500's in the 16th century when trying to find accurate proof. Most info pre 1500 is copied from books or trees. I think DNA would be iffy that far back as accuracy of proof.
Off hand - personally I think it comes in the same category as trying to prove accurately a descending ancestor of Robin Hood . ;D ;D ;D but!!! - sometimes on a rainy miserable day sat at their computer, it makes people feel good :D thinking their tree has a King or Queen in it who could't give a monkey's about proof or accuracy .
So what the heck!! ;)
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This supposed claim of a Knox link to William the Conqueror, may have come from a misunderstanding.
I was about to post a piece from the 1824 document last night which appears to link Rev Knox of the Parish of St Catherine, in the City of Dublin, to a Knox at a place called Strokestown, County Roscommon.
Interesting to note a reference to Strokestown in the published "Knox of Prehen".
I attach Knox of Prehen.
In a Marriage Settlement document there was a reference to Faren[?] Cottage, probably the one spelt Farn in the attached history.
See Knox's Marriage Settlement 1824, Registered 20th January. Also the full document at Reply 79 (only parts attached).
Don't be disappointed, the initial glances of the documents available, suggest this family of yours appear to have an interesting history.
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Yes, most people have got to get a documented History back to a 'Gateway Ancestor' who appears in one of the long Rolls they roll out at The College of Arms (if in England), or the Court of Lord Lyon (Scotland), or the country's equivalent.
Mark
Added: Knox of Kilmannock
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Still a most interesting family from a Scottish History, point of view ...
A blog about Prehen House
http://lordbelmontinnorthernireland.blogspot.com/2015/01/prehen-house.html
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The references by Burke appear to mean that this Knox family can be traced back to the time period of William I.
... temp. William I.
Not to William I.
Mark