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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: KGarrad on Monday 01 September 25 15:46 BST (UK)
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Forgive my ignorance, but I'm not familiar with naming conventions in Ireland and/or Ulster.
I'm doing a tree for a friend.
His paternal grandmother was Mary Louisa Gingles, born 1892, Belfast.
Mother's name not recorded at birth.
On 1901 census her mother is named as Elenor Gingles/Scott, a widow age 49. I think(?) born Carlow.
Mother and daughter are Presbytarian.
Does this mean Elenor Scott married a Mr Gingles?
Or is Mary Louisa illegitimate?
Not seeing a marriage.
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If this is the correct birth certificate it gives both parents names, and indicates they were married:
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/birth_returns/births_1892/02328/1871736.pdf
However the mother’s name is Maggie Scott not Elenor. Odd. But I think it’s the right parents though. This looks to be their marriage in 1889. Note that Maggie was a widow, whose maiden name was Scott.
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/marriage_returns/marriages_1889/10731/5912609.pdf
I think the mother’s place of birth in the 1901 census is Cabrag(h), Co Down, (not Carlow).
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Ormeau/Ardgowan_Street/1208681/
In the 1901 census, the mother seems to have reverted to her maiden name.
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If I am looking at the right family is that not her on the 1911 census with her mother Margaret ?
Was looking at this birth for a Mary Louisa Gingles 28 November 1892 19 Walnut Street Belfast
Father James Gingles occupation chemist mother Maggie Gingles formerley Scott
Birth on irishgenealogy is this not the person you are looking for
Rosie
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Snap Elwyn but your the clever one I don't know how to copy and paste :D
Rosie
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I'll add the 1911 census where the surname is Gingles again.
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Cromac/Collingwood_Ave_/158994/
Maggie Scott’s first marriage in 1880 to Samuel Livingstone:
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/marriage_returns/marriages_1880/11048/8041215.pdf
His death in 1886:
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1886/06263/4794010.pdf
Mary Louisa’s marriage in 1918 (which confirms her father’s name and that he was dead):
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/marriage_returns/marriages_1918/09716/5525265.pdf
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But was her father James dead? As early as 1901 mother calling herself a widow.
1894 directory- James Gingles at 4 Walnut Place- not there in 1901 directory:
https://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/wyzcomplete1894.htm
This is only Gingles listed in Name section in 1901-
Gingles, Mrs., servants' registry office, 141 Donegall Street
Only James Gingles death I found so far was a farmer near Larne in 1920.
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I looked for James death and couldn't find it in Ireland. Perhaps he died elsewhere? Agree it's not something we have resolved.
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Wonder if he was in Boer War and died out there?
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Ireland's Saturday Night of 7 December 1895 and Ballymena Weekly Telegraph of 14 December 1895:
Wanted the address of James Gingers, medical student, brother to Patrick and John Gingers, publicans, Kilwaughter, Larne. Any information regarding him will be thankfully received by his wife and child, 4 Walnut Place, Belfast.
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I would guess this could be James' brother John marrying a Kathleen Rafferty in 1901:
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/marriage_returns/marriages_1901/10324/5758378.pdf
In 1911:
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Larne/Cross_Street/196254/
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Looks as though James absconded. This might be his brother in the 1901 census:
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Larne/Cross_Street/995605/
Perhaps this family in the 1851 census:
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1851/Antrim/Upper_Glenarm/Grange_Of_Killyglen/Killyglen/30/
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Nothing has readily jumped out at me for James Gingle after he took off, perhaps he changed his name. But at least we know that he points back to the Kilwaughter / Larne folk.
On the Scott side, the surname can be challenging to research in this geographic context, but here are some possibilities to note until you can rule them in or out. The marriage of Margaret Scott to Samuel Livingstone in 1880 was at Lisburn, so I'm guessing that Margaret's stated residence of "Cabra" was the townland just south of there (rather than the one away down near Rathfriland). The two witnesses were Martin Rutherford and Ellen Scott, the marriage of a Martin Rutherford to an Agnes Scott (daughter of Robert a farmer) in Belfast in 1876 may indicate a possible sister to Margaret:
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/marriage_returns/marriages_1876/11154/8086119.pdf
The same couple in 1901 and 1911 (note forenames like Ellie and Sarah Jane for the children):
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Pottinger/Castlereagh_Road/1216237/
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Pottinger__part_of_/Castlereagh_Road/220450/
In the 1901 Ireland census, there is an Ellen Scott in "Cabragh", living with her mother Ellen:
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Ballyworphy/Cabragh/1240519/
In 1905, Ellen Scott the mother died at Cabra:
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1905/05582/4568031.pdf
In 1906 in Hillsborough, Ellen Scott the daughter married a John Jamison, Ellen's father was given as Robert, a farmer:
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/marriage_returns/marriages_1906/10134/5686939.pdf
The Jamesons in 1911 at Cabragh:
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Ballyworphy/Cabragh/249629/
When Margaret Scott Livingstone married James Gingle in 1889, one of the witnesses was a Sarah J Bell. When a Sarah Jane Scott married John Bell at Lisburn in 1874, her residence was given as Cabra and her father as Robert, a farmer, one of the witnesses was an Agnes Scott (maybe the same one who married Martin Rutherford in 1876?):
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/marriage_returns/marriages_1874/11226/8115444.pdf
So did the Margaret Scott (a.k.a. "Elenor" if the 1901 Ireland Census return for house 8 in Ardgowan Street is to be believed) who married James Gingle have sisters Agnes, Ellen and Sarah Jane? If her father was Robert a farmer, was her mother named Ellen (as per that 1901 Ireland Census return for Cabragh)? Also note the following marriage in 1846 (Ellen and Eleanor being interchangeable), it took place at Lisburn, it was for Robert Scott, a farmer, of Ballymurphy (west Belfast) to Eleanor Waterworth of Cabra:
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/marriage_returns/marriages_1846/09312/5371909.pdf
All just possibilities for now.
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I couldn't see anything on immigration records either or in Scotland .If his wife was looking for information he most probably changed his name ::)
Rosie
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And another thing! :D
Margaret Livingstone marriage to James Gingles shows:
Both parties "of full age".
James' occupation "Student".
Married by licence.
Are Presbyterian marriage icences available anywhere?
Presumably, James was a student at Queen's University?
Are any records available?
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... Perhaps this family in the 1851 census:
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1851/Antrim/Upper_Glenarm/Grange_Of_Killyglen/Killyglen/30/
Probably related, but the Killyglen Gingles aren't my first choice for parents of James. It's difficult to tease apart the cluster of Gingles that were in that area just west of Larne, but looking solely at the information we know of - that James' marriage registration shows his father as a farmer called William and that the item his wife placed in the newspaper seeking his whereabouts named his brothers as publicans Patrick and John from Kilwaughter - I'm leaning towards the idea that his mother was called Agnes. It would take me too long to provide the full trail of logic leading to that, but of the two Patrick Gingles in the 1901 Ireland census in that area, it's the Hightown one who was more likely James' brother and not the Ballyedward one (whose father was called John according to the record of his marriage to Agnes Magill). There are also 1890s newspaper references to a Patrick Gingles of Hightown being a spirit merchant. In 1911, this was the more likely candidate in Station Road Larne:
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Larne/Station_Road/195592/
A Patrick Gingles died in Cross Street Larne in 1917 (Cross Street being where the previously posted John Gingles was), the identity of the informant suggests that he had a sister Agnes Gingles who married Agnew Ferguson in 1875:
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1917/05217/4443396.pdf
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/marriage_returns/marriages_1875/11210/8108648.pdf
I think the Margaret Gingles shown in that census return for Station Road may have died in 1929, the death notice for that Margaret said she was the youngest daughter of William and Agnes Gingles of Hightown Kilwaughter and a sister of Andrew in New Zealand. There are also the following deaths for a William Gingles (1888) and an Agnes Gingles (1899):
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1888/06191/4770342.pdf (informant was son Patrick)
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1899/05792/4638282.pdf (informant was son John)
There's a will on the PRONI Will Calendars website for the William Gingles who died in 1888, it mentions wife Agnes and sons Patrick and Thomas:
The Will of William Gingles late of Hightown County Antrim Farmer who died 7 February 1888 at same place was proved at Belfast by Agnes Gingles Widow and Patrick Gingles Farmer both of Hightown the surviving Executor.
There was also a William Gingles who died in 1896 and was the brother of Matilda Gingles according to a newspaper reference, again I'm guessing he was a son of William and Agnes.
Hardly conclusive, but William and Agnes Gingles of Hightown are worth noting as a possibility for now.
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Presumably, James was a student at Queen's University?
In the absence of a civil birth registration I'm assuming that James was born pre 1864. If you google "James Gingles" and "Queen's College" you should get back a hit showing that name under "Passed" for "Queen's College, Belfast Second University Examination in Medicine. October, 1881". There is a Belfast newspaper reference in 1881 corroborating that. A newspaper item about Queen's University in October 1878 indicates that a James Gingles passed the First University Examination in medicine.
Also, in the Belfast News-letter of July 1875, a James Gingles of Kilwaughter is listed under Belfast Academy for having achieved Latin 3rd Class.
You could contact Queen's University for their records.
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Are Presbyterian marriage icences available anywhere?
The licences themselves no longer exist but the North of Ireland FHS has some marriage application records (forms the couple completed at the time, which contain a little more than is on the certificate) for Presbyterian churches in Belfast. I don’t know if they have Crescent but you could ask. The records are not on-line so you would need to e-mail them. Crescent was known as Linenhall until 1887.
https://www.nifhs.org/