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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Wigtownshire => Topic started by: Lught-thie on Sunday 31 August 25 00:20 BST (UK)
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Hi,
I'm looking for information about one of my ancestors: a Scotsman by the name of James Wilson.
I know for sure that he was born in Scotland, sometime between 1817 and 1821 (his age isn't consistent on the two censuses on which he appears) and that he was a baker, living in Carlisle, when he married Hannah Lishman of Ulverston, Lancashire (now Cumbria), in Ulverston 23 Feb 1839. The marriage record names his father as Thomas Wilson, a butcher.
I have found a James Wilson, baptised 20 July 1817 in Sorbie, Wigtown, with parents Thomas Wilson and Mary Simpson. Would anyone be in a position to help me find out whether this Thomas Wilson was likely to have been a butcher? Or can anyone think of any other ways I might be able to confirm whether this is likely to be the right Thomas?
Thanks for any help you can offer! :)
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Do any of the records you have seen indicate that he was born in Wigtonshire?
I note on https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk that there were 12 James Wilson’s father Thomas born/baptised 1817/1821.
Colin
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GRO online shows 2 children b Liverpool mmn Lishman
John Dec 1841
Elizabeth Ann 1844
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Do any of the records you have seen indicate that he was born in Wigtonshire?
I note on https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk that there were 12 James Wilson’s father Thomas born/baptised 1817/1821.
Colin
No, I've no evidence that he was born in Wigtownshire; I only know that he was born in Scotland. I chose the Sorbie James Wilson as a starting point, due to the proximity to Carlisle (where James and Hannah married): I was hoping to find some evidence that would help me either eliminate him or provide corroboration.
GRO online shows 2 children b Liverpool mmn Lishman
John Dec 1841
Elizabeth Ann 1844
I believe James and Hannah had 8 children: John, James Lishman, William Edwin, Wallace, Wallace, Charles, Elizabeth Ann and Hannah. I have found them on the censuses: in Liverpool in 1841, then Menai Bridge in 1851, then the widowed Hannah remarried (her second husband was Matthew Greaves) and settled in Ulverston.
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I note 7 of children you mention, 6 in Liverpool and Hannah in Ulverstone, note below there were 2 others in Ulverstone.
WILSON, HANNAH mmn LISHMAN
GRO Reference: 1854 M Quarter in ULVERSTONE UNION Volume 08E Page 561
WILSON, WALTER 1855 ULVERSTONE UNION
WILSON, GORDON 1856 ULVERSTONE UNION
I was hoping that the names of any females might give a clue to the wife of Thomas but of 12 records 1817 – 1821 there are none. Do you know where and when Hannah was born?
As for James 1817 Sorbie, distance may not be the answer, if it is there are two closer.
Sorbie, Wigtownshire is 59 miles W of St Cuthbert, Cumberland .
JAMES WILSON 29/09/1819 Dumfries THOMAS WILSON & MARY FORRESTER
Dumfries, Dumfriesshire is 28 miles NW of St Cuthbert, Cumberland
JAMES WILSON 17/04/1819 Penpont THOMAS WILSON & AGNES THOMSON
Penpont, Dumfriesshire is 47 miles NW of St Cuthbert, Cumberland.
But the other 9 should not be discounted.
Colin
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There are 245 deaths of James Wilsons, born 1819 plus or minus 5 years, in the Scottish deaths indexes.
There are two with mother's maiden surname Simpson and three with mother's maiden surname Thomson. You could check these in the hope of eliminating them. You could even do the same for the rest of the James Wilsons with father Thomas.
Does James' marriage certificate say that his father Thomas was deceased? If not, you could try checking all the Thomas Wilsons in the 1841 census to see if any of them are butchers/fleshers. That could be a long job but you never know, it just might turn up an answer.
I wonder why James named two sons Wallace? Might there be a clue there?
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Sorbie, Wigtownshire is 59 miles W of St Cuthbert, Cumberland
and 94 miles by road from Carlisle*. Though it was probably possible to shorten the journey by going by sea.
Dumfries, Dumfriesshire is 28 miles NW of St Cuthbert, Cumberland
and 33 miles by road from Carlisle.
Penpont, Dumfriesshire is 47 miles NW of St Cuthbert, Cumberland
and 50 miles by road from Carlisle.
But the other 9 should not be discounted.
Indeed; nor should the possibility that he is a 13th one whose baptism record, if it ever existed, has not survived.
*The AA Route Planner doesn't know about St Cuthbert!
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The mileage was as the crow flies to illustrate a point.
Colin
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Indeed it is.
But Carlisle to Sorbie involves the additional complication of the Solway Firth in the way, making it even further than as the crow flies, both in absolute terms and even more relative to Penpont and Dumfries, thus reinforcing your point.
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JAMES WILSON 17/04/1819 Penpont THOMAS WILSON & AGNES THOMSON
Colin
Thomas & Agnes above appear on the 1841 census at Penpont, he is an Ag. Lab.
Colin
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I wonder if this is Hannah?
Hannah Lishman Baptism 1 April 1817
Brothers: William 1812 & John 1814
Lowick, Lancashire, England, United Kingdom
Parents James Lishman, Anne Lishman
1841 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQ2R-9G4?lang=en
If the above is correct and as James & Hannah’s eldest daughter was Elizabeth Ann, maybe they used both their mothers names, if so, I wonder if this could be James below, the only birth/baptism I can find with the mothers name Elizabeth, there are none for Hannah, and assuming they followed some sort of naming pattern?
JAMES WILSON
THOMAS WILSON/ELIZABETH MACFARLANE
18/07/1815
Bonhill, Dunbartonshire
Parents?
Thomas Wilson married Elizabeth McFarlane/MacFarlane 1/06/1799, Cardross, Dunbartonshire.
James above was the youngest child, siblings, all born/baptised Bonhill.
John 21/12/1800, Robert 3/08/1802, Janet 11/12/1803
Jean 28/04/1807, Elizabeth 9/04/1809, Donald 9/08/1811.
It may be worth looking at the records on https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
Do you know when and where James died, as I note that there are death records for a James born about 1815 in Ulverston.
Colin
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There are 245 deaths of James Wilsons, born 1819 plus or minus 5 years, in the Scottish deaths indexes.
There are two with mother's maiden surname Simpson and three with mother's maiden surname Thomson. You could check these in the hope of eliminating them. You could even do the same for the rest of the James Wilsons with father Thomas.
Does James' marriage certificate say that his father Thomas was deceased? If not, you could try checking all the Thomas Wilsons in the 1841 census to see if any of them are butchers/fleshers. That could be a long job but you never know, it just might turn up an answer.
I wonder why James named two sons Wallace? Might there be a clue there?
Thank you! I'm currently away on a mini-break but I'll have a good dig into the various James Wilsons once I get back.
(There were two Wallaces because the first died in infancy.)
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I wonder if this is Hannah?
Hannah Lishman Baptism 1 April 1817
Brothers: William 1812 & John 1814
Lowick, Lancashire, England, United Kingdom
Parents James Lishman, Anne Lishman
1841 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQ2R-9G4?lang=en
If the above is correct and as James & Hannah’s eldest daughter was Elizabeth Ann, maybe they used both their mothers names, if so, I wonder if this could be James below, the only birth/baptism I can find with the mothers name Elizabeth, there are none for Hannah, and assuming they followed some sort of naming pattern?
JAMES WILSON
THOMAS WILSON/ELIZABETH MACFARLANE
18/07/1815
Bonhill, Dunbartonshire
Parents?
Thomas Wilson married Elizabeth McFarlane/MacFarlane 1/06/1799, Cardross, Dunbartonshire.
James above was the youngest child, siblings, all born/baptised Bonhill.
John 21/12/1800, Robert 3/08/1802, Janet 11/12/1803
Jean 28/04/1807, Elizabeth 9/04/1809, Donald 9/08/1811.
It may be worth looking at the records on https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
Do you know when and where James died, as I note that there are death records for a James born about 1815 in Ulverston.
Colin
That's fabulous, thank you. I'll have a good look into things once I get back from my mini-holiday.
Yes, that's the right Hannah Lishman. Baptised Lowick 1817, parents James Lishman and Anne Mount. However, there were Elizabeths on her side of the family. I believe she had siblings William Myers, John, Hannah, Elizabeth and Mary. (A James Lishman and an Elizabeth Lishman are listed as witnesses at Hannah's wedding.) Her parents' siblings included Susannah, Betty, William, Jane, John, Margaret, Molly, Betty and John.
That could suggest that the names Wallace and Charles came from James' side of the family.
James died in 1855 in Ulverston.
Thanks again for your help and I'll explore your suggestions shortly :)
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Sadly if this is the death you refer to it rules out the family above?
WILSON, JAMES mmn MURPHY
GRO Reference: 1855 D Quarter in ULVERSTONE UNION Volume 08E Page 533
Colin
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Sadly if this is the death you refer to it rules out the family above?
WILSON, JAMES mmn MURPHY
GRO Reference: 1855 D Quarter in ULVERSTONE UNION Volume 08E Page 533
That can't be a death - English death certificates don't even record the mother's given name, let alone index her maiden surname.
I checked and it is indeed a birth.
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JAMES WILSON
THOMAS WILSON/ELIZABETH MACFARLANE
18/07/1815
Bonhill, Dunbartonshire
There is a death in 1890 of James Wilson, aged 74, mother's maiden surname McFarlane, which could eliminate this James Wilson.
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Thanks. I'd been using death records on Ancestry, but I've started to look at GRO. The 1855 death record for James Wilson can't be the right one: it says he was 74, which is too old. But there is another death recorded in Ulverston in 1857 (08E, 349) that looks like the right one. (He definitely died before April 1858, as that's when Hannah remarried.)
Once I've a bit more time, I'll have a look at the various James Wilsons who were born in Scotland c1817 to a Thomas Wilson and see if I can narrow things down (both by eliminating those that can be eliminated and looking for supporting evidence - eg father a butcher, siblings called Wallace or Charles).
Thanks again for all your help!