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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Lancashire => England => Lancashire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Ratty2 on Saturday 30 August 25 05:50 BST (UK)
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Alan Carr was born c1931 according to his MC to Kathleen Redfearn.
They married 31 Jul 1954 at Manchester R O. He was a labourer, and she a packer.
Alan died 25 Dec 1981 but I keep getting DC references to either A(double l)an Carr or Allan T Carr.
Please could you supply is real DReg for 1981?
His father was James Carr b 3 Sep 1899, and his mother either Emily Littler or Margaret.
With thanks
David
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I noticed this burial on Find a Grave with the death date you listed and the birth date ties in with the Alan T Carr death you mentioned :-\
Alan Carr
Birth Date 3 Jul 1932
Death 25 Dec 1981 Salford, Metropolitan Borough of Salford, Greater Manchester, Cemetery Agecroft Cemetery and Crematorium
Spouse Brenda Carr
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Freebmd
Allan Carr married Kathleen Redfearn 1954 reg. Manchester
Note his name is spelled with the double L
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James Carr married Margaret Littler 1919 reg. Chorlton
1921 living with his in laws Joseph and Mary Ellen Littler.
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1939 register 17 Sandown Crescent, Manchester Ref: FindMyPast
James Carr born 3 September 1899
Margaret born 8 November 1897
Margaret born 24 October 1921 later married Brooks
Helen born 19 July 1924 later married Jackson
redacted
redacted
Terence (Patrick) born10 September 1936
redacted
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GRO Index children of James and Margaret Carr mother's maiden name Littler
Margaret reg. 1921 Chorlton
Ellen reg 1924 Chorlton (1939 as Helen)
James J 1927 reg. Manchester
Mary 1930
Alan 1932**
John 1934
Terence 1936
Patricia 1939
Eileen 1941
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Purchase the birth certificate of Alan Carr 1932 reg. March quarter vol. 8d page 182, Manchester S
mother's maiden name Littler
This will give you his exact DOB.
A PDF copy is £3. using GRO Index you have to sign in (free)
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I noticed this burial on Find a Grave with the death date you listed and the birth date ties in with the Alan T Carr death you mentioned :-\
Alan Carr
Birth Date 3 Jul 1932
Death 25 Dec 1981 Salford, Metropolitan Borough of Salford, Greater Manchester, Cemetery Agecroft Cemetery and Crematorium
Spouse Brenda Carr
Lancashire BMD marriage
CARR Alan T
RENSHAW Brenda (died 2014)
1954 Salford St Clements
Added for info
Alan Thomas Carr Death Age 49
Birth 3 Jul 1932
Registration 1981 Dec Salford Greater Manchester Volume 39 Page 0783
CARR, ALLAN THOMAS mmn Cole
1932 S Quarter in SALFORD Volume 08D Page 473
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In 1932 there were two births in the Manchester area:
Carr, Alan Mar 1932 Manchester South
Carr, Allan T Sep 1932 Salford
When you add MMN Littler to the GRO search, it is retrieved attached to Alan, Manchester South. The death registration with dob 3JY1932 appears to belong to the other birth, registered in Sep quarter.
There were two marriages in 1954:
Carr, Allan Redfearn Manchester 10e 855 Sep 1954
Carr, Alan T Renshaw Salford 10f 1052 Mar 1954
(Amended)
Out of all this, which facts do you KNOW, and which have been deduced from some of these entries?
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Thanks for all this help, very grateful
We know the marriage was 31 July 1954 to Kathleen, which means: CARR, Allan REDFEARN Manchester 10e 855 Sep 1954. He signed his name with double LL in Allen.
and I would guess and then buy the GRO birth of Carr, Alan Mar 1932 at Manchester South
but NOT the Allan T one.
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James Carr married Margaret Littler 1919 reg. Chorlton
1921 living with his in laws Joseph and Mary Ellen Littler.
Marriage Image on Anc*y
12 Apr 1919 West Gorton, All Saints, Lancashire
Margaret Littler 21, peeler, 25 Park Street, Father Joseph Littler, labourer
Spouse James Carr, 19, labourer , 7 Park Street, fathers name left blank
add
CARR, JAMES -
GRO Reference: 1899 D Quarter in CHORLTON Volume 08C Page 729
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Thanks for all this help, very grateful
We know the marriage was 31 July 1954 to Kathleen, which means: CARR, Allan REDFEARN Manchester 10e 855 Sep 1954.
He signed his name with double LL in Allen.
and I would guess and then buy the GRO birth of Carr, Alan Mar 1932 at Manchester South
but NOT the Allan T one.
What was his father James occupation?
Were the witnesses related ?
Edit - Please let us know how you get on when you receive the digital birth image and do you know when and where his wife Kathleen died?
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Cannot find a second death registered.
(As an aside, searching the GRO index for male deaths using "phonetically similar variations" of Alan, I have just noticed that it retrieves female names as well, but only between 1984-1992 - Alice, Annie, Lillian etc.)
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Alan Carr married Kathleen Redfearn in 1954, but at some other date he also had a wife named Brenda.
With Brenda he had the following children (Evening Post notice for 1982?)
Alan, Graham, David
daughters: Debbie, Angela, Denise, Diane.
As these are most likely living, I have no wish to trace them as that infringes Rootschat rules. I only list them here in order to better clarify the second wife and hence the Alan I am seeking (and not the Allan T)
Allan Carr had two sisters and a brother: Irene Carr, the second sister's name is not remembered, and Allan's brother was John.
The Death I found on FindMyPast was 35 Dec 1981, when he was aged 49, in the 4th Qtr at Salford, Vol 39 p783.
Cheers, Ratty
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Allan Carr had two sisters and a brother: Irene Carr, the second sister's name is not remembered, and Allan's brother was John.
The Death I found on FindMyPast was 35 Dec 1981, when he was aged 49, in the 4th Qtr at Salford, Vol 39 p783.
Purchase the birth certificate of Alan Carr 1932 reg. March quarter vol. 8d page 182, Manchester S
mother's maiden name Littler
This will give you his exact DOB.
A PDF copy is £3. using GRO Index you have to sign in (free)
Ratty - Did you download the 1932 PDF birth certifcate? What was Alan's actual date of birth?
FreeBMD
Manchester births mmn LITTLER between years 1927 - 1941
There are 4 males (includes Alan) and 3 females - No Irene perhaps that was a pet name :-\
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I have traced the births of those seven names plus two earlier ones, dated 1954-1968, all with mmn Renshaw, and all registered in Salford. This must be the other, different, family.
Meanwhile, there were two Carr/Redfearn births in Manchester, 1955 & 1957.
It appears all the events registered in Salford are not connected to your Al(l)an Carr. Is the Evening Post notice in 1982 connected to the death in Dec 1981, or not?
We return to your original question that there is apparently no death for Al(l)an of Manchester who married Kathleen Redfearn. Do you KNOW he died in 1981? Do you know when & where Kathleen died?
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Alan Thomas Carr married Brenda Renshaw 1954 reg. Salford
Alan Thomas Carr was registered July quarter 1932
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The OP wants the Alan Carr who married Kathleen Redfearn.
Perhaps they made an assumption when finding the death date 1981 that it was the Alan Carr they were looking for.
Alan Carr son of James could have been born December 1931 as his registration is March quarter 1932.
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The Findagrave record has an inscription which definitely links a man who was born 3 Jul 1932 and died 25 Dec 1981 with a wife named Brenda. In a Salford Cemetery - Agecroft. (See Reply #1)
The OP assumed this death was the one he was searching for because there does not seem to be another. What is known about the circumstances of the death of Alan who married Kathleen, and about her death? Perhaps they emigrated, perhaps he is still alive aged 93.
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Do you know when & where Kathleen died?
Marriage
March 1964 Manchester 10e 587
Battle, Gaylord - spouse Carr
Battle, Gaylord - spouse Redfearn
Carr, Kathleen - spouse Battle
Redfearn, Kathleen - spouse Battle
Lancashire BMD - Manchester Register Office or Registrar Attended
Possible death
Sep 1977 Manchester 38 850
Battle, Kathleen
d-o-b 22 June 1933
I think a burial at Gorton Cemetery, may be more info on ancestry
Also on Find a Grave
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/136522248/kathleen-battle
Possible birth
Sep 1933 Manchester South 8d 172
Redfearn, Kathleen
mother Trufitt
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Kathleen Battle buried 22 July 1977, Gorton Cemetery
Grave details, others seem to include her Redfearn parents, and Lesley Florence Carr, buried 13 August 1968 (died age 13) :(
https://www.burialrecords.manchester.gov.uk/GenLocDetails.aspx?ID=181583
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FreeBMD Birth:
Carr, Lesley F Redfearn Manchester 10e 641 MarQ 1955
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There are two Battle/Redfearn births: Ashton[under Lyne] 1964 and Manchester 1970.
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Reply #15
Alan Carr son of James could have been born December 1931 as his registration is March quarter 1932
There are three possible deaths of an Al(l)an Carr born 1931, none local to Manchester:
CARR, ALAN 1931
GRO Reference: DOR Q2/2002 in DURHAM NORTHERN (4401C) Reg DN3C Entry Number 71
CARR, ALAN 1931
GRO Reference: DOR Q4/2003 in SUNDERLAND (0581B) Reg B69E Entry Number 196
CARR, ALAN 1931
GRO Reference: DOR Q2/2011 in LINCOLNSHIRE (609-1J) Entry Number 504890324
ADDED: There are four possible births in Co. Durham to match these, none in Lincolnshire.
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Thanks for all this help, very grateful
We know the marriage was 31 July 1954 to Kathleen, which means: CARR, Allan REDFEARN Manchester 10e 855 Sep 1954.
He signed his name with double LL in Allen.
and I would guess and then buy the GRO birth of Carr, Alan Mar 1932 at Manchester South
but NOT the Allan T one.
What was his father James occupation?
Were the witnesses related ?
Edit - Please let us know how you get on when you receive the digital birth image and do you know when and where his wife Kathleen died?
I feel I should mention that it's not possible to get a PDF of Alan Carrs birth in 1932 - it's certificate only.
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So if Kathleen remarried 1964 then we need a death prior to 1964 for Alan or divorce papers.
Perhaps if the answer is divorce it made the papers?
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Many thanks for all these contributions.
"I feel I should mention that it's not possible to get a PDF of Alan Carrs birth in 1932 - it's certificate only" - yes, indeed. I've ordered a copy today but it will be about six weeks before it reaches me.
I consulted my friend who agrees with the Littler connection. I think we should concentrate on that link and ignore the Allan Thomas person.
Re: " What is known about the circumstances of the death of Alan who married Kathleen, and about her death? Perhaps they emigrated, perhaps he is still alive aged 93." No migration apart from my friend who is a daughter to Allan named Beverley. Her father, Allan, died from lung cancer and is therfore most certainly no longer living.
I may be able to check out the Kathleen (Redfearn) Battle reference tomorrow.
Re: Ladyhawk, "What was his father James occupation?" = Park Keeper (1954 MC) and the 1938 Census adds he worked with the Municiple Parks department.
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Your friend is the 1957 birth? To Kathleen?
So does she not know roughly when & where Alan died?
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Lesley F Carr 1955- 1968 who is buried with Kathleen Battle is the child of Alan and Kathleen
nee Redfearn, birth reg. 1955.
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Kathleen Battle buried 22 July 1977, Gorton Cemetery
Grave details, others seem to include her Redfearn parents, and Lesley Florence Carr, buried 13 August 1968 (died age 13) :(
https://www.burialrecords.manchester.gov.uk/GenLocDetails.aspx?ID=181583
Has this possible death been mentioned a bit of a long shot using the link above there is this entry - you need to register and buy credits to view further details
Burial 18/06/1996 Alan Carr Gorton Cemetery Y Consecrated 587
When you click on view details there's another person with a different surname, same Grave number Position 1 (buried 1991), he's position 2
Their entries are on findagrave but no age has been given ???
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/136170378/alan-carr
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01tyy/ - cannot find the 1991 death entry on FreeBMD with that surname perhaps the surname has been mistranscribed ???
:-\ There is a death for a person with the same first and middle name in 1991 Stockport but wrong surname :-\
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1996[/b] Alan Carr Gorton Cemetery Y Consecrated 587
When you click on view details there's another person with a different surname, same Grave number Position 1 (buried 1991), he's position 2
Their entries are on findagrave but no age has been given ???
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/136170378/alan-carr
Someone has left flowers for Alan Carr's grave on the findagrave site and it looks like it possible to sent them a message
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With burial of Alan Carr at Gorton shown as 18/6/1996 searched indexes for Jun 1996 and we have:
Alan Carr born 29/1/1932 death Jun.1996 Dwyfor Gwynedd
As birth certificate for Mar.qtr. 1932 has been ordered if birth dates match we have our man. So died in Wales but buried back in Manchester (Gorton).
Annette
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With burial of Alan Carr at Gorton shown as 18/6/1996 searched indexes for Jun 1996 and we have:
Alan Carr born 29/1/1932 death Jun.1996 Dwyfor Gwynedd
As birth certificate for Mar.qtr. 1932 has been ordered if birth dates match we have our man. So died in Wales but buried back in Manchester (Gorton).
Well found Annette :) Fingers crossed its the correct Alan - I didn't spot the entry on FreeBMD
The details are on Anc*y England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007
Alan Carr.
Death Age 64
Birth Date 29 Jan 1932
Registration Date Jun 1996
Registration District Dwyfor
Inferred County Gwynedd
Register Number 10
District and Subdistrict 8531
Entry Number 2
Also good spot Kay99 the person has surname Carr so probably related
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This tree suggests that Alan remarried after his split with Kathleen
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01tyz/
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This tree suggests that Alan remarried after his split with Kathleen
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01tyz/
Lancashire BMD Marriage 1962 Manchester Register Office or Registrar Attended
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I have now discovered why the death in 1996 does not appear in the GRO index, although it does manage to appear in the Ancestry and Findmypast record sets derived from the same data. Firstly, it does not appear in FreeBMD because they are only about 10% of the way through transcribing deaths for 1996. However, it has always been possible to search the scans from which FreeBMD is compiled. I found this entry in the file numbered 1996D-C-036 i.e. the 36th page of surnames beginning C for Deaths in 1996.
The alphabetical list does not repeat the surname when it is the same. However, after the first few Carr entries we have a subheading "Carr." for Alan's entry, followed by subheading "Carr" for the remainder of the page. So our Alan has a full stop entered at the end of his surname. If you then search the GRO index for "Carr." he is there.
I will report an error to the GRO!
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Well done everybody, let's hope the date matches up!
And more thanks to Molly for solving the GRO index mystery.
Burial 18/06/1996 Alan Carr Gorton Cemetery Y Consecrated 587
When you click on view details there's another person with a different surname, same Grave number Position 1 (buried 1991), he's position 2
Their entries are on findagrave but no age has been given ???
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/136170378/alan-carr
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01tyy/ - cannot find the 1991 death entry on FreeBMD with that surname perhaps the surname has been mistranscribed ???
Eva May Brijoa, buried 12 September 1991.
I can't find her in the free index on ancestry, England & Scotland, Select Cemetery Registers, 1800-2024.
There is though Eva May Rrlisa, possibly buried the same date, but they say at Philips Park! That could be wrong though! Age is indexed as 62 (born 1929)
Brijoa, Rrlisa, surely can't be right...
There is a death for a person with the same first and middle name in 1991 Stockport but wrong surname :-\
Do you mean Eva May Briscoe, age 62?
There is a death notice for Eva in the Manchester Evening News, 11 September 1991, mentioning lots of family.
It says she is going to be buried at Gorton Cemetery on 12 September, at 2.45pm...
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Yes well done Molly! :)
Jon that was the death entry I referred to even though deceased I didn’t mention her name as I wasn’t sure if there was a connection to Alan.
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Having consulted with my friend again, I can assure you that Al(l)an Carr is her father to his first wife Kathleen Redfearn. They divorced and he remarried to Brenda Renshaw (don't know when).
My friend's mother Kathleen Redfearn also remarried to become Kathleen Battle (date unknown).
The Evening News item (undated) of Alan Carr's death 25 Dec 1981 lists all the children from his marriage to Brenda Renshaw.
We're looking for confirmation of his death in Dec 1981.
We are also looking for a photo of him - any ideas?
One sister of my friend, Leslie Florence (b1955) died and is found on the Redfearn grave. She is a daughter we think of Allan Carr b1932. All in Gorton, not anywhere else - not Wales.
We suspect the grave of Alan Carr died 1996 is a son of Allan Carr b1932.
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Your assumptions are not correct re: Alan Carr.
Alan Thomas Carr married Brenda Renshaw "1954" March quarter registered Salford.
He cannot marry two women in the same year.
Your Allan Carr NO middle name married Kathleen Redfearn 31 July 1954 registered Manchester.
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jonwarnn and LadyHawk - Thank you for your kind words. I have just looked back at my downloads before I delete them. I found the correct file at the 7th attempt, in the space of 3 minutes. For anyone who has never seen this -
Select the spectacles symbol at the end of any FreeBMD result. This takes you to the "Entry Information" page where halfway down you can look at the scan which produced that entry. Below that is:
"If the scan does not contain the entry you may be able to find the scan yourself by clicking here"
On the next page "View Images" you may set up your own search from "New Search" at the bottom.
This includes access to scans which have been uploaded but not yet transcribed.
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To summarise:
Alan who died in 1981 is buried in Salford with Brenda.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/276079583/alan-carr
The second plaque on the memorial mentions William and Milly [Mildred] Renshaw who married 1931, parents of Brenda Renshaw b1933.
Carr and Renshaw married 1954, Salford.
The first child of Carr and Renshaw was registered in 1955.
Carr and Redfearn married 1954, Manchester.
The first child of Carr and Redfearn was registered in 1955.
(Lesley Florence who d 1968, buried at Gorton, Manchester.)
All the Carr/Brenda Renshaw events were in Salford.
All the Carr/Kathleen Redfearn events were in Manchester, until the death in Dwyfor.
Kathleen remarried 1964 to Battle and had 2 more children.
She died 1977, buried at Gorton (with her parents and daughter).
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/136522248/kathleen-battle
Alan from Manchester may well have remarried, but not to Brenda Renshaw. Brenda remained married to Alan from Salford until she was widowed in 1981 and is commemorated with him.
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Your assumptions are not correct re: Alan Carr.
Alan Thomas Carr married Brenda Renshaw "1954" March quarter registered Salford.
He cannot marry two women in the same year.
Your Allan Carr NO middle name married Kathleen Redfearn 31 July 1954 registered Manchester.
Agreed amondg - for info. from Lancashire BMD
https://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/marriagesearch.php
CARR Alan T RENSHAW Brenda
1954 Salford St Clements Salford
CARR Allan REDFEARN Kathleen
1954 Manchester Register Office or Registrar Attended Manchester
Molly - that is a very comprehensive summary well done :)
Ratty - please do let us know the details from the 1932 birth certificate when you receive it
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This tree suggests that Alan remarried after his split with Kathleen
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01tyz/
Ratty did you look at this public tree posted by Kay99 - perhaps contacting the owner to see if they have more details
edit to add Lancashire BMD marriage index
1962 Manchester Register Office or Registrar Attended
added - you would need to purchase this m/c to check who is named as his father
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This tree suggests that Alan remarried after his split with Kathleen
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01tyz/
Ratty did you look at this public tree posted by Kay99 - perhaps contacting the owner to see if they have more details
edit to add Lancashire BMD marriage index
1962 Manchester Register Office or Registrar Attended
This tree also confirms the 1996 death date I referred to.
Ratty - because he died in Wales doesn't mean you should just dismiss this. He could have been on holiday. Also, between us we've proved he definitely didn't marry Brenda Renshaw and didn't die 1981. I tend to agree with this tree and that his second wife was Marjorie Vernon with whom he had 3 children. It has scant details of his other marriage just shown to a Catherine (believe this should read Kathleen) with 2 daughters.
However, you say you've ordered Alan Carr's 1932 birth certificate and if it gives a birthdate of 29/1/1932 this will prove he did indeed die in Wales 1996.
Annette
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We suspect the grave of Alan Carr died 1996 is a son of Allan Carr b1932.
Ratty to confirm I took a look at the 1996 burial record his age is 64 so he was born 1932
As Annette mentioned once you receive his birth certificate and have his exact date of birth, you will know if that is indeed the correct death entry.
If it is, you could then obtain that certificate to see what is says ie his address, cause of death, who was the informant.
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If the birth dates do match, I wonder why Alan's record in the 1939 Register has not been opened by findmypast. Whether he was living with his family, where a younger brother is open, or was elsewhere.
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Yes, thank you all for your patience and careful checking. My apologies for persisting with the error.
You are quite correct that the Alan we seek is not the Alan T(homas) who married Brenda.
I'll go through these suggestions and will get back to you. Regrettably the BC of 1931 will take about six weeks to reach me. Meanwhile I am following up the possible current connections Kay99 mentioned - the grave flowers and the family tree.
Allan and Kathleen divorced at some date, and both also remarried. Does GRO keep divorce records and how do I reach them?
Stay tuned
Thanks again
Ratty
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Allan and Kathleen divorced at some date, and both also remarried. Does GRO keep divorce records and how do I reach them?
I looked here but couldn’t find anything
https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/divorce/#4-divorce-case-files-1858-1972
Snippet “ Very few files survive for the period 1938-1972. Files containing petitions dated after 1972 have not been transferred to the National Archives”
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Have not yet found the divorce, but I have found Alan's 2nd marriage was 1st Qtr 1962 to Marjorie Vernon (Vol 10e p620).
The link you gave to the Ancestry tree works well and is helpful.
No image of Alan as yet :'(
No mention of his death in Wales newspapers.
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This tree suggests that Alan remarried after his split with Kathleen
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01tyz/
Many thanks Kay99, this proved the best clue and the correct one. I have been in touch with the owner who is a cousin of my friend, and who has supplied the photo originally asked for.
So this satisfactorily concludes the search and my hearty thanks to everyone for their contribution.
Ratty2
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Love this when there is a solution :)
Kay
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So this satisfactorily concludes the search
Don't forget that birth certificate you ordered!