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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: JacobusV on Saturday 23 August 25 16:29 BST (UK)
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Hi All
I wonder if you can help me. my paternal grandmothers grandfather was a Robert McGregor, born 13th July 1838 in Perth in Scotland. Doing my own research I was under the impression that his grandparents were a James McGregor, born in 1792 in Perth but died in Tramore Bay near Waterford in Ireland and that his grandmother was a Jannet Ritchie, born 14th March 1774 in Glasgow, Lanarkshire (a bit of a wide age gap I know). Having looked on Ancestry, there are multiple different people with conflicting information to the point I'm totally lost.
According to Ancestry, James father was a Peter McGregor born in 1753 and his mother was a Janet McKinlay born in Lanrick, Doune, Inverness-shire in 1752. However there are multiple competing line of descent from multiple different ancestry users who may (or may not) be relatives. Is there anyone on here that are connected or can help?
J
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Firstly - ignore other peoples trees & do your own research. People make errors & others copy the trees so the errors are spread.
You are skipping a generation in your post "Robert McGregors grandparents were James McGregor"
Start with what you know - where & when was your grandmother born?
Who were her parents - when & where did they marry?
Do you have her parents marriage cert which will give their respective parents names
Use that info to go back via the censuses to trace her fathers & establish who his parents were
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Robert McGregor is very common name in Scotland.
Following other people’s mistakes on Ancestry trees is not recommended.
Making assumptions without viewing supporting documentation is also a waste of time. An index entry is NOT a document.
Robert McGRIGOR married Helen PORTEUS
20 July 1835 in Dundee, Angus.
What information does the marriage record give about their “home’ parishes?
Are there witnesses named?
Why do you think his family were from Perthshire?
Robert MacGregor, born 13th July 1838 in Perth.
Son of Robert MacGregor and Helen Porteous.
What does the birth / baptism record tell you about the father?
Robert McGregor 1841 census
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/60ea4b90f493fd7863259d1e/robert-mcgregour-1841-perthshire-perth-1838-?locale=en
You need to look for a burial for the father to obtain some idea about his age at death and therefore when he was born.
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Hi Neale1961
This is connected to the Webbs, Jessie Ann Mcgregor was my Grandmother Nelly Webbs grandmother on her maternal side. As we have gone through in the past, the Webb side is pretty solid now and I've connected with dosens of relatives, but not on this side. A big sticking point was that there were 2 couples called Robert Mcgregor and Margaret Simpson living in the Glasgow area at the exact same time. Thankfully I confirmed that my Great Great Grandmother Jessie Ann was born in Perth, so my line of descent is from Robert Mcgregor and Helen Porteous.
The difficult part comes with this Roberts father. From my research using ancestry and familysearch as well as Scotland's People, it seems his parwnts were James McGregor and Janet Ritchie, however others have it down as James McGregor and Janet Henderson. James parwnts based on my research seem to me a Peter Mcgregor and a Janet McKinlay. Going further back through this line, this would make be a potential descendant of John Murray Mcgregor 1st of Glencarnoch, 5th Cheif of the children of the mist. I have confirmation on my mother's side via the Genealogist at Strathnaver Museum in Thurso (which I paid for) confirming my descent from King James V of Scotland via the Mackay's of Skerray. I'm now trying a different angle as I beleive that there may be a line of descent through this line via my paternal grand mother as well.
J
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The below is my Great Great Grans birth certificate:
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Hi there
Also a capture of Peter McGregors Marriage banns to Janet McKinlay
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Struggling tfind My 3 times great Grandfathers record on Scotlands People, can only find the record on familysearch:
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And here is his father attached
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I'm struggling to find Robert Snrs parents James McGregor and Jannet Ritchie's marriage banns on Scotlands people or family search.
Cheers
J
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Hi,
You need to be really methodical here a get all the information you can.
If you are happy this is your great grandmothers birth certificate.
The next step is her parents marriage certificate.
Their date of marriage is in 1857 as given on the certificate, so should be relatively easy to find.
This gives their parents.
Now look for all their siblings, this makes them easier to find with certainty in the census.
Get all the census returns, you may be lucky and find one with a relative visiting or similar.
This should give approximate death dates for their parents.
Repeat this process with the parents, this will be pre certification, so you won’t get their parents from this, but looking at the dates, you may well be lucky and the grandparents die after 1855, giving certificates which will give their parents names.
Scotlands People have been upgrading their index recently, making it a bit easier to find people. They say that mother’s maiden names are not always in the index pre 1974. But there are a lot more now, and the other name is more often in the index as well.
There is a possible Robert McGregor dying in Rothesay in 1912 mmn Porteous
And a possible Helen McGregor mmn Adams in Perth in 1895
There is also a possible Robert McGregor in Perth mmn Campbell.
But as others have said, do your own research and read the original records, there is lots of information there not in the index.
I haven’t reviewed this in the light of your later posts, but the principle remains the same.
Happy hunting
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I had some credits so checked 1857 marriage and it confirms Robert's parents as Robert McGregor & Helen Porteous. Robert was a blacksmith and deceased by the time of his son's marriage.
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Thanks Osprey
Once we get to James and Janet Ritchie then James parents Peter McGregor and Janet McKinlay, this is where it starts to get messy
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But we need to be sure of the generations in between first. ::)
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True, I am confident that my 3 times great grandfathers parents are Robert Mcgregor and Helen Porteous. I'm just concerned on the elder Roberts parents James and Jannet
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Hi,
Have you looked at any of peoples suggestions?
As I think we have all said, you need to look at all the sources.
Some may be wrong even, but they all build a picture of the family to try and get past a brick wall.
What are the justifications for James and Janet? Are they family names. As Neal1961 has said Robert McGregor is a very common name.
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JacobusV,
Apologies, I didn’t mean to come across as grumpy, but we do make these suggestions for a reason.
I think we have all had one of those brick walls, that we find an unexpected snipped on the record, that give a link, like the wife’s fathers name recorded in the marriage register before 1855.
Happy Hunting
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No worries, I'm just excited to see who could be lurking in the family tree at that side. I've been blown away by the people I'm descended from on my Mum's side. I thought I was descended from farmers and journeymen, only to discover I've got Lords, Earls, Dukes and King's. I'm sitting in an end terrace 3 bed house selling IT kit for a living, meanwhile I have relatives living in Country estates, castles and palaces that probably haven't seen an honest days work in their lives lol. Interested to see if this paradigm continues on my paternal grandmother's maternal side.
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The screenshot that you have posted in reply 7 for Robert McGregor's baptism seems to indicate that the family may have been Catholic - the 'Rc' before the place name of Braemar in the Event information. Is this likely?
Checking ScotlandsPeople, there is a baptism to a Robert McGregor in 1816 in the catholic registers of Ballater. You have to select which denomination of parish register to check to search correctly.
I have found the 1838 baptism on ScotlandsPeople:
Robert MACGREGOR
Parents: ROBERT MACGREGOR/HELEN PORTEOUS
22/08/1838 Perth Ref 387 270/154
Make sure that you are flexible with the search to allow for variations of spelling. I can't find any other children with the same named parents at the moment.
Nell
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Robert's father Robert had died by 1841 when the census for Perth shows the Widow Porteous (age 60, not born in county) with the Widow MacGregor (aged 23 and also not born in county) and 3 year old Robert.
Nell
(Sorry, just realised that Neale1961 posted a link to the 1841 census a couple of days ago :-[ )
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Do you have documentary evidence of Robert's (b 1838) death?
There is a death listed in the index for a Robert McGregor in 1912 on the Isle of Bute aged 74, mother's maiden name Porteous. 558 / 35 Rothesay
Nell
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Hi there
I can confirm that the Robert who died in Rothesay, Isle of Bute was my 3 times Great Grandfather, the death is registered by a Jessie Hill, Jessie Hill was my great great grandmothers married name, formerly Jessie Ann McGregor. Please see attached.
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Is that daughter the Jessie Hill who died 1917, Bridgeton, age 57?
Burial records (not great ones) for her at Sandymount Cemetery
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-N3ZJ-N9XQ-W
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS1G-R5T2
Lair book for O / 533
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-N3ZJ-NQ4N
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Lair book for O / 533
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-N3ZJ-NQ4N
Jessie's husband David Hill, daughter Margaret Struthers?
Webb grandchildren?
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Yes, it's the same Jessie Hill. Her daughter Jessie Hill married my Great Grandfather Eli Webb, whose family I've had helping researching on another thread on this forum.
J
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The Hills were originally know nas Hillock and emigrated to Scotland from Ireland. I've also been building my tree on Wikitree and I added my 4 times great grandmother Helen Porteous to it, someone then deleted it saying it was wrong. My DNA test on Ancestry along with cousins descended from her with reasonably close centigrams of DNA begs to differ.
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..... I added my 4 times great grandmother Helen Porteous to it, someone then deleted it saying it was wrong.
Without any documentation for your Helen Porteous, you cannot prove you are correct.
- Please post her death certificate.
- Please post where you have her in the census.
- Still waiting to see her marriage record (see reply #2)
A lot of public trees have the death for Helen Porteous in Angus in 1882. However there appears to be no record of this at all.
Have you looked at the death in Perth in 1895 for Helen Porteus / Helen McGregor (age 75)?
(There are numerous online public trees, all copying the wrong information from each other, and none with any documentation.) ::)
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Helen Porteous is down as the mother of my 3 times Great Grandfather Robert on the excerpt of his death certificate I attached earlier. And according to DNA testing I'm related to her. Other Isobel Craig with cousins with DNA matching to Helens half brother John Leithead
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Hi, can you explain how you get to James Leithead as a half brother.
Also be aware other people seem to have Robert McGregor son of James McGregor and Janet Ritchie as dying in Ontario.
There seem to be a lot of different trees claiming Robert!
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Hi
I did a DNA test on Ancestry and I seem to share DNA with him and his descendents and the DNA markers show I am descended from Helen Porteous (who is on my 3 times Great Grandfathers death certificate as his deceased spouse). My Great great grandmother Jessie Hill (maiden name Mcgregor) was the informant of his death. I recall my father telling me about the Mcgregor and the Hills by direct word of mouth.
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Hi, so a couple of further questions.
If Jessie Hill was the informant on James Leithead’s death certificate, what relationship did she state.
Also if the Braemar connection is to be believed, I would expect dna matches to that extensive family, do you have any.
Also don’t forget that McGregor was a proscribed name for a long time, which may make things difficult.
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Hi
Jessie Hill was the informant of my 3 times great grandfather Robert Mcgregors death not James Leithead. James seems to have been my 3 times great grandmother Helen Porteous potential half brother. Both were children of Isabel Craig, husband of Walter Porteous. Isobel would be my 4 times Great grandmother and I have a DNA link to descendents of her and her son James.
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Sorry, Isabel Craig was the wife of Walter Porteous, it's been a long day.
J
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... James seems to have been my 3 times great grandmother Helen Porteous potential half brother. Both were children of Isabel Craig, husband of Walter Porteous.
However, you have not verified any of that.
A DNA link could simply show that someone else who shares similar DNA, also shares the same errors in their tree. :)
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Has any other record confirmed that the elusive Robert McGregor was a blacksmith?
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Ah,
The mist begins to clear a little.
Are we talking about William Porteous and Isabell Craig of Newton?
if you are correct in linking to this Walter, welcome to a maze of Twisty passages that look all alike.
The mining families of Midlothian and East Lothian are very complicated.
You can pretty much forget using cM to predict MRCA date.
I have matches I know are matches, but pre date 1750 by a long way or are very hard to prove.
I would take that half brother thing with a very large pinch of salt unless you have documentary evidence as well.
Can I ask how you get to Walter and Isabella? What is your last documentation in the registration era?
There are a lot of Water Porteous’ and these families moved more than you might expect, a lot left for a better life overseas.
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Can we go back to your original post, please?
You say:
Doing my own research I was under the impression that his grandparents were a James McGregor, born in 1792 in Perth but died in Tramore Bay near Waterford in Ireland and that his grandmother was a Jannet Ritchie, born 14th March 1774 in Glasgow, Lanarkshire (a bit of a wide age gap I know).
and in reply No 7 here: https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=893467.msg7677302#msg7677302
there is a screen shot of a Roman Catholic baptism for a Robert McGregor in 1816 with these parents named.
Please think about this carefully. If it is true that Janet Ritchie was born in 1774 and James McGregor was born in 1792, then he was 24 when his son was baptised in a Church of Scotland (i.e. presbyterian) church. And his wife was 42.
Edited: Your Robert married in a Church of Scotland church, but according to the baptism you had identified as a possible record for him, his family was Catholic.
Searching the Catholic records on ScotlandsPeople, there are baptisms for the following children in the same district with the same parents named:
1802 Margaret (ages of parents 10 and 28)
1805 Mary (ages of parents 13 and 31)
1807 Jannet (ages of parents 15 and 33),
1819 Colin (ages of parents 26 and 45 for the mother)
(ScotlandsPeople is now misbehaving and I can't get to further results :( )
However, I think this is fairly conclusive that the parents of Robert McGregor who married Helen Porteous are NOT James MacGregor and Jannet Ritchie, who seem to have been resolutely Catholic.
I think other possibilities need to be considered.
Nell
Edited: Robert born cir 1816 married in a Church of Scotland church, but according to the baptism you had identified as a possible, his family was Catholic.
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ScotlandsPeople behaving again.
More children:
1800 Donald
1803 Alexander,
1809 Charles
1812 John
1814 James
1821 William
And I really don't think an 8 year old boy would have been married and fathering children.
Nell
(Edited after posting)
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This is my problem, with my 4 times Great Grandparents Robert Mcgregor and Helen Porteous, others on Ancestry have multiple different parents for Robert, they seem to agree that it was a James McGregor for the father, but for the mother they have a Janet Ritchie and a Janet Henderson. It's Familysearch researchers themselves that have Roberts parents as James McGregor and Janet Ritchie, not a random person who inputted the connection.
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Have you looked at the death in Perth in 1895 for Helen Porteus / Helen McGregor (age 75)?
Helen McGregor / Helen Porteous
Age 75
Mother's Maiden Name Adams
RD Perth
Ref 387 / 227
Is she with her mother in Perth in 1861? (This is cobbled together from free info only)
Helen Porteous Head 60 born Fife Falkirk
Helen McGregor Daughter 40 born Midlothian Dalkeith
Death of Helen Porteous / Helen Adams in 1861, Perth Burgh, age 63
Mother's maiden surname Reay
Ref 387 / 1 / 378
More info on FamilySearch, but mother is Gray here!
Helen Porteous
Widow
Age 63
Died 9 August 1861, Perth
Spouse Robert Porteous
Father John Adams
Mother Mary Gray Adams
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X957-V1KW
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Hi, there is nothing special about FamilySearch researchers.
The only thing you can believe is research done by yourself.
I have had more than a few families I have built who look very convincing, only to discover their Death Certificate demonstrating the as single, with the Informant as someone who would definitely know.
The Leithead link sounds important, can you clarify it?
Ps Sorry that should have been Isabella Craig not William in Newton.
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FamilySearch trees can be edited by anyone who has an account. The researchers are not necessarily professionals. They are trying to build a family tree, just like you.
I think many of us here on RootsChat would advise time and time again, don't take anything you find while meandering through online trees as necessarily true.
The ages of parents, especially mothers, should be considered carefully. A family history researcher who was also a retired doctor helped me work out whether it was likely that a woman of more advanced years (based on possible baptisms) was likely to be the correct mother. If there is doubt, look for other possible candidates where the age is more likely. The problem of course arises when not every record has survived. This is often true in Scotland. Perth OPR (Church of Scotland) don't have deaths/burials recorded at all in the 18th and 19th centuries.
Nell
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Well, I decided to use some credits to look at the marriage entry for Robert & Helen in 1835 in Dundee. Robert was described as a ropemaker and I think it says that Helen was the daughter of David Porteous.
Nell
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Well, I decided to use some credits to look at the marriage entry for Robert & Helen in 1835 in Dundee. Robert was described as a ropemaker and I think it says that Helen was the daughter of David Porteous.
There is
David Porteous + Helen Adams
5 Nov 1810, St Cuthbert's
:-\
I did wonder if the husband's name was correct on that 1861 death cert.
The ages of both Helens in later records may be a little unreliable?
So Robert McGregor wasn't a blacksmith after all?
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This is my problem, with my 4 times Great Grandparents Robert Mcgregor and Helen Porteous, others on Ancestry have multiple different parents for Robert, they seem to agree that it was a James McGregor for the father, but for the mother they have a Janet Ritchie and a Janet Henderson. It's Familysearch researchers themselves that have Roberts parents as James McGregor and Janet Ritchie, not a random person who inputted the connection.
No, your problem is that you have not looked at any documentation.
You refuse to look at any of the easily available sources.
You have continually ignored all of the information presented to you on this thread, and have disregarded all leads and advice given here.
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Neale, I have a young family (children aged 8 and 6) and responsibilities and a full time job, I study the family tree when I can, I cannot study it for hours at a time. I don't have that luxury. I appreciate all the help given and will look at the information and act upon it when I am able to.
J
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JacobusV
Hi, I think we all appreciate that not everyone has as much free time as some of us do.
However, it is nice, as you now have, to have a response to know you will be following up.
As you have discovered, once you get back pre registration, finding family can be very difficult. It takes a lot of patience and time, you are benefitting from many years of experience and frustration!
And as I think everyone has said, do not trust other people’s research, you may have a snippet of family knowledge that will turn a tree upside down.
Happy Hunting
David
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I am fascinated by my family tree and having paid for a part of it to be researched and had it confirmed that I am descended from a King of Scotland, I'm proud of that, but hungry for more. That said, time is my issue, I'm a 48 year old Dad with a full time job, 2 young children and a partner who works shift work for her living, which means free time to answer and respond is at a premium.
I've also found connections to founders of Famous grouse whiskey on a seperate maternal line as well and founders of Temperance Hotels. I have a varied and quite starry family tree, but I'm keen to research my father's maternal line more fully.
J
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I know civil reg did not start in Scotland until 1855, and as Robert McGregor Snr likely died inbetween 1838 and the 1841 census, if it is said that many Perth burials were not kept in the 1800s, finding a burial for him may be tricky.
I would also try to look for any baptisms of Robert McGregor in the Perth area around 1800-1820 if he married in 1835 to Helen Porteous, before trying to one in Braenmar which is over 35 miles away. But of course he may not have been from Perth or the county himself, and perhaps from Dundee where he married, or another county.
As said you can establish with certainty that Robert born 1838 was the son of Robert McGregor and Helen Porteous. But it is Robert Snr we are trying to find out who his parents were.
I did once have a sub for ScotlandsPeople but not used it for a while, and not even logged in alone for ages, but looking on FindMyPast for baptisms of Robert McGregor (1790-1830) there does seem to be several candidates to choose from.
One born 1806, 1808, 1810 and 1813 in Perth alone. And one born in 1805 in Killin, Perth, and one in 1809 in Cargill. And a few other Robert McGregor's who had a middle name like Kiell and Scott.
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Hi David
I appreciate that. I have found researching my mothers side a heck of a lot easier as luckily I have a few notable relatives and notable families on that side. My fathers side not so much so its a bit more of a tough search.
J
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I am fascinated by my family tree and having paid for a part of it to be researched and had it confirmed that I am descended from a King of Scotland
Does paying for research make it certain it is correct? :-\
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It does if you have contacted the home of Clan Mackay research at Strathnaver Museum in Thurso. Armed with death certificates, parish registers and military discharge notices including Chelsea Pensioner info. Which was also stored at the Strathnaver Museum, cross checked and referenced.
J
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Perhaps then you should contact the Clan Gregor Sociey.
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It's an idea at that.
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TBH now I would rather do my own research than hire someone. Even then I still feel any part of my researched tree can be under review if I get more evidence, and/or if I did DNA and found an unexpected NPE somewhere.