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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: haney on Thursday 21 August 25 23:43 BST (UK)
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Hi Everyone
I'm hoping to find more articles for Ernest Hope. According to this article "He travelled the Globe" etc. I've searched on Trove but have not been able to see anything other than this random record in this newspaper that only ran for a year by the looks of it.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/247194249?searchTerm=ernest%20hope%20acrobat#
Thanks for any help kind regards Dianna
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Hi Just adding this to my last post. I don't have a date on this one unfortunately.
This is a snippet from an advertisment from ???? I couldn't attach the whole page as it was too large
Ernest is a very interesting subject. Many thanks Dianna
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Dianna, could he be Ernest CANNON? His full name from electoral rolls is Ernest William Francis HOPE, and in 1916 an Ernest W. HOPE applied to enlist. He originally signed as Ernest W. CANNON which is crossed out and HOPE then written.
Ernest/Ern CANNON was an acrobat in the 1910s.
ERNEST CANNON Sensational Acrobat and Hand balancer
20 Somersaults in 15 Seconds (World's Record.)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/138328722
I don't think he actually enlisted, only applied.
Debra :)
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HI Deb
Now this is really strange you saying this!! I also found something in the newsaper re him being a witness to an argument. I will re find it now.
Yes that whole thing with ERNEST'S name CANNON being crossed out on that application.
Let me see ow if I can re find that item. Many thanks. If I could find a photo of that Ern Cannon that would be fantastic as Ernest HOPE was a Half Indian. Many thanks Dianna
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HI Ernest Cannon mentioned here. I've included the small snippet as is a bit long.
The Truth paper 21 July 1912 Music Hall Sensation.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/168736541?searchTerm=music%20hall%20sensation
I was told today that he was a street perfomer in Bengal India (When I'm not sure). Many thanks Dianna
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Hi
Another tiny snippet found on Ern Cannon.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/rendition/nla.news-article186998380.txt
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/186998380?searchTerm=acrobat%20ernest%20CANNON#
I don't know if this is at the Tivoli?? It is said that Ernest HOPE did perform there, I don't think the family have made the connection though. Thanks Dianna
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Is there a connection here? (Different surname :'()
Photograph
https://www.rootschat.com/links/01ty5/
P.R Dix had an arrangement with Tivoli, Melbourne
https://teara.govt.nz/en/biographies/3d8/dix-percy-reginald
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Hi I'm not seeing a connection there really. I don't know why Ernest Cannon would change his name to Ernest Hope.
Something may have happened!
The first document I have re his name HOPE is the birth of his illegitimate daughter Daphne Theresa b 10 August 1913, registered 27 August 1913, Ernest residing at 40 Clisdell St Sydney/Surry Hills.
It say's he is a labourer! Not a performer
The last newspaper report for an ERNEST CANNON that has been found is 22 August 1912 in Newcastle.
It's a tricky one. Many thanks Dianna
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Ernest Cannon's first appearance as a "CHAMPION Equilibrist and Hand Balancer is in the Geelong Advertiser Sat 3 Dec 1910.
He could have come from Victoria originally!!
So he is Ernest CANNON 1910, 1911 and 1912 then ??? I have not found him as Hope or Cannon re him performing!!!
He may have given it up for a while. Thanks Dianna
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As Debra suggests, Ernest Hope failed to qualify for service due to Psoriasis.....I think.
I wonder if his selected alias was a witty comment on both his skill and his possible concealment of identity,
That is it was his Earnest Hope he would not fall during his performances and also his Earnest Hope he would maintain his anonymity. ;D ;D
Sue
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This is the marriage between Ernest William Francis HOPE and Sarah Jane TOWELL.
Available on a tree on Ancestry.1923. He was a metal ??, son of Ernest Phillip HOPE, deceased labourer.
He was born in Marrickville and aged 32
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ty7/
Sue
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Hi Sue
I have that marriage certificate + two birth certs for the illegitimate children with Adelaine Low/Bow.
I am just waiting for the birth certificate of Ronald who was born to Ernest William F and Sarah in 1924 and died in 1927.
I think this father Ernest Phillip Hope "MAY BE" a red herring. Nothing can be found on him.
Even though Ernest WF states he was born in NSW, Marrickville etc, this does not match what the family have stated that he was born in Mumbai and was a street performer in Bengal India.
Perhaps now that this CANNO name has surfaced, maybe more can be found.
I'm going to try and track his movements in Sydney c 1910 onwards to 1923 when he married Sarah TOWELL.
I need to find more information on that Adeline Ruth as well to see if she turns up on any electoral rolls etc.
I have three address they were at. See how I go.
Thanks for the interest and help regards Dianna
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Are you aware of this person?
Reginald Percy HOPE
Born 22 Sep 1915 Redfern
Parents - Ernest Phillip and Adeline Ruth Hope
Reginald married Norah Trembath in 1936
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HI Neale Yes I am I have some records on him and his photo. I've attached it here. Thanks for your reply. Dianna
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Not a great photo but it's something at least. From his war record
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Well here is Adeline BOW in court over the bigamy of her husband. 1911
Adeline’s mother, Mrs Ruth LOW also testifies in this case.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/64447379?searchTerm=%22adeline%20bow%22
Sue
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LOL I am just reading the whole story of Mrs RUTH Lowe nee BOW, later Duncan.
Wow it's amazing. I have her husbands WW1 file now looking at it. Looks like poor Ruth had a really hard time.
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=8211146
More Bigamy and desertion etc alias's
LOWE Thomas : Service Number - 3393 : Place of Birth - At Sea : Place of Enlistment - Keswick SA : Next of Kin - (Wife) LOWE Ruth
I thought I would try again and get this Ruth LOWE/BOW situation sorted.
I'm not sure when Ruth split with that THOMAS LOWE. He died in 1915 in the Suez and married someone else while he was married to Ruth.
LOL just like that James Richard Bow did. It's like a soap opera.
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I thought this sounded familiar, there is a previous post about this guy.
I'm not sure how to link to it.
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Well, yes it is,
And it kind of looks like the name Ernest Phillip HOPE was a name they all used to fill in a blank spot on certificates.
At Reginald Percy's marriage, he was the father.
Adeline his mother.
Sue
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Previous thread.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=837286.0
And
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=837462.0
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HI Yes it is an old post but I thought I would do a bit more researching on Ernest W F HOPE or ?? whoever he is claiming to be as his last child Betty died this month and it started the conversation off again in the family because no on has his birth records in India.
So that is why I have decided to gather as many "new" snippets I can. Thanks Dianna
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Thought I would include Adeline Ruth LOWE/BOW (HOPE?) Waltons death certificate. Thanks Dianna
Its too large apparently. Anyway the children mentioned are Doreen 75, Michael deceased, DAPHNE 72, REGINALD Deceased, Annie Deceased and Edward Deceased.
Mother RUTH WATTS 26 Dec 1984. Father unkown LOWE.
I found Doreens birth in Victoria as Doreen Ruth Bow 1909 Carlton Victoria. I have Daphne Theresa HOPE Illegitimate born 10 August 1913. So I imagine Adeline was expecting in 1912.
Some things don't make sense and perhaps there is some confusion between mother RUTH and daughter Adeline Ruth.
1913 Electoral roll JAMES BOW and RUTH living at 541 Crown Street.
Very confusing. Perhaps James is living with the mother Ruth and Adeline is shacked up with Ernest HOPE.
Then James Richard Bow enlists in Army Sydney in 1915. NOK RUTH ADELINE BOW. Hmmmm!! Strange.
It's also very weird as in 1907 in Victoria there is the birth of
BOW JAMES Richard Alexander Mother RUTH WATT Father James Richard BOW.
He was registered as LOWE as well Mother RUTH WATT Unknown father.
1908 James Richard BOW marries Adeline Ruth LOWE.
That seems really bizarre to me. Looks like the mother Ruth has a child with her daughters husband, before Adeline marries him. My Goodness.
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Some things don't make sense and perhaps there is some confusion between mother RUTH and daughter Adeline Ruth.
1913 Electoral roll JAMES BOW and RUTH living at 541 Crown Street.
Very confusing. Perhaps James is living with the mother Ruth and Adeline is shacked up with Ernest HOPE.
Then James Richard Bow enlists in Army Sydney in 1915. NOK RUTH ADELINE BOW. Hmmmm!! Strange.
It's also very weird as in 1907 in Victoria there is the birth of
BOW JAMES Richard Alexander Mother RUTH WATT Father James Richard BOW.
He was registered as LOWE as well Mother RUTH WATT Unknown father.
1908 James Richard BOW marries Adeline Ruth LOWE.
That seems really bizarre to me. Looks like the mother Ruth has a child with her daughters husband, before Adeline marries him. My Goodness.
It was common for people to fail to register to vote. That may be why you do not see Adeline with her mother and husband.
I don't think that Ruth (LOWE) necessarily had a child with James BOW.
It was also common for the mother of a girl having a baby before marriage to register the infants with herself as mother.
In the news piece which I linked for you, Ruth persists in calling the man her husband. She has with her a 4 year old boy. She is likely perpetuating the story to conceal her daughter's ex nuptial pregnancy.
The NOK on 1915 enlistment is not particularly odd. Perhaps he thought of her as his next of kin really regardless of their living arrangements.
On his re-enlistment 1918 he states NOK his mother Ellen. He at first states single, but later in the file states married.
Sue
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Hi Sue
Thanks I never knew that about mothers registering their daughters children. Never heard of it, but it makes sense.
Yes Ruth does call James her hubby in the paper. As you say I can understand why. She does say that she was present at her daughters marriage to James R BOW. Thanks for your input. Dianna
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Also if Adeline was born in 1891.
LOWE Adeline Ruth
Father Thomas Alfred Henry LOWE
Barossa 478/391 1891
She would not even be old enough to vote till 1912.
Sue
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Thanks Sue of course I should have thought of that. Just looking again at the Ruth Watt (Lowe) and James Bow situation.
From NSW BDM also I will attach the headstone. James R A Bow may have been brought up as her son. There is an Alexander (last child) b 1907 by the looks of it on her death certificate.
Thanks Dianna
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Their Headstone at Botany Cemetery. Thanks
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I was thinking about Ernest HOPE today.
Were you ever able to make any contact with the children or grandchildren of his wife Sarah Jane nee TOWELL?
Reginald C (b. 1914) and Leslie Roy (b.1912) were probably children of JACKSON and their births were registered in the 3 surnames, JACKSON, TOWELL and HOPE.
Arthur, (b.1918) was registered under 2 surnames TOWELL and HOPE (no JACKSON).
I would think the HOPE amendment signified that Ernest HOPE was taking the parental role for these children at his marriage to Sarah Jane.
Indeed when Arthur C enlisted he gives his NOK Ernest HOPE. Stepfather,
A woman named Marjorie Jean HOPE married Cyril Thomas HENNESS in 1952 (#9191). Both now deceased.
She says Arthur is her brother in a letter contained in his Service file after his death.
The reason I mention all this that conversations with people related to Ernest HOPE whether by a step relationship or by direct family, may have recollections of him that would help you.
Sue
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HI Sue
Yes I have been in touch with some. One of them is my nieces husband Rodney, He and I talk about Ernerst a lot as he knows I am trying to find Ernerts Origins.
He is the Grandson of the Marjorie Henness (nee Hope) you've mentioned.
I don't see that anyone has considered the ERNEST CANNON we have been discussing so far.
There still maybe a connection there!
I have the families recollections as Ernest Spoke (some) Hindi, called his wife Sarah Memsarb, which I believe is a respectfull term for a lady.
I think he had Malaria as well and that he was a Street performer in India.
Someone in the family has a photo of Ernie balancing on chairs or something like that and I have asked Rod for a photo of this. The more information I gather the better it (maybe).
I've finalised the family group sheet with the blended families just so I can keep it all straight in my head.
I will keep on trying to fill the gaps between 1916 when Ernie applied to join the army and when he and Adeline split up.
I have now her son Reginald Percival marriage in 1936 and she signed as giving permission as Adeline Ruth HOPE and I now have another photo of Reginald P. He was living at 106 Buckland Street Alexandria.
Also I don't know when Adeline started living with Robert Edward Walton. He died in 1946.
That's my goal anyway tracking these movements either by Sands Directory, Electoral Rolls or Rate Books. It takes a lot of time doesn't it. Thanks for your time. Regards Dianna
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Some of the Sands Directories I have from a while ago. I don't know if there is anything earlier than these. Dianna
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The only reflection I have on the link between Ern Cannon and Ernest W F Hope is this.
If the WW1 enlistee (who wrote then struck through his surname) was born in 1888 to 1890, he would be in his early 40's when he was performing in the Earlwood streets in 1932.
He would need to be continually practising and training to maintain fitness and skill for this.
How would he do that?
Does it all seem a little unlikely somehow.
Sue
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Just reading back on the older threads, did you ever get this birth cert to see what information is given about the father?
Did you know that Adeline's son Leonard Ernest BOW born Nov 1910 was not actually a BOW?
KING, Leonard Ernt Phil
Mother: Adeline Ruth WATT
Father: Ernt
CARLTON
1911
1423/1911
WATT was the maiden surname of Adeline's mother and considering the child's names I would say that your Ernest was the father, moonlighting as Ernest KING.
That makes this account of Adeline's husband's bigamy case very interesting reading.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/64439738
Debra :)
Debra :)
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This observation from Debra makes the third time I have seen Ernest Phillip as a name in this
When giving her consent Adeline states on the 1936 marriage of son Reginald Percy, that she is mother and the Father of Reginald is Ernest Phillip
The father of Ernest William Francis on his marriage reg.to TOWELL is Ernest Phillip
At his marriage EWF Hope did not know his mother’s name in any part.
Sue
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Hi
Yes I thought that may be Leonard Ernest King. Even though his birth date is given on his service record as 1910. Easy to make those mistakes.
He died in 1942 from wounds he received. His wife was Frances Eden BECUS. He married her as Bow in 1930 so the whole King surname has not been recognised!
He most probably would have needed permission to marry as well. Interesting. Shame there is no death certificate for him.
I don't know why Adeline Ruth would be using her mothers name for the birth of this child. Would she not have registered as BOW or LOWE.
Besides Ruth already had a son born in South Australia called Leonard Harold. Hmmm tricky isn't it.
I'm reading through the newspaper report again and I cannot understand what's going on with this Violet.
She wrote to an Ernie King or King, brother?? of this James BOW. Doesn't make much sense does it.
In another report Ruth LOWE says that James BOW is her husband. WOW. How confusing.
Need to find more on the ERNIE KING or whoever he is. LOL Dianna
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Picture of Adeline and three of the kids.
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From the Gazette. This James Bow sounds like a pest. LOL
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Im going to spend some time today looking at the Aus Electoral Rolls. I need to see if Ruth (Watt) is using the name BOW in 1909 through to 1914.
They ie Ruth and James Richard BOW seem to be in NSW and Victoria (overlap in 1913/14).
That makes me think seeing as Daphne Theresa Hope/Lowe/Bow was born in 10 August 1913, 10 CLISDELL St. Surry Hills, that she could possibly have met ERNEST WILLIAM etc HOPE? in Victoria and they came to Sydney together. Just more speculating on my part though.
Such a tangle. Thanks Dianna
I need to track down some of Daphne's family I think to see if any of them have the "darkish" complexion.
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just for general interest.
James Richard BOW. from his Tasmanian prison record.
Sue
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Thanks Sue. That's a better photo than the one I have. I am sending an email to the library in Tassie. The have a record there of this marriage to Violet. LOL. Need to see that just out of curiosity.
Regards Dianna
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The marriage is transcribed on Familysearch.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTZZ-D9N
The Tas library does not hold BDM records but may have the corresponding church reccords.
Note: This data was compiled by the Tasmanian Family History Society. It was published on CD-ROM as part of the Tasmanian Federation Index Births 1900-1919, Deaths and Marriages 1900-1930 by Macbeth Genealogical Services, 2006. Libraries Tasmania does not hold the original documents used to create this index. Contact Births, Deaths and Marriages for access to the original records, or to obtain a certificate.
Debra :)
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Hi
Yes I thought that may be Leonard Ernest King. Even though his birth date is given on his service record as 1910. Easy to make those mistakes.
His date of birth is stated as 30 Nov 1910 - with only 4 weeks until the end of the year, his birth may not have been registered until 1911.
Debra :)
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Oh for goodness sake. I wasn't told it was available on Family Search. So from the library it is the original entry as you said.
Thanks for that, don't have to wait now. LOL
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This just in. LOL
There is no remarriage for Violet Leith ROBBINS but there are 4 births of children to her and James Adam DYE,
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So what is the relationship between Jas BOW and Ernie KING?
Do they both exist as separate identities?
This account of the trial states brothers.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/64439738?searchTerm=%22%20ernie%20king%22
BOW was a travelling performer with Ditchams Travelling show when he came to Burnie.
He said he was Ernie King’s brother who lived in Hobart. Violet wrote to Ernie and he said "don’t marry Bow. He has a wife and child."
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/50470198?searchTerm=%22%20ernie%20king%22
This Ernest King who innocently lives in the area denies being the identity in question.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/64442723?searchTerm=%22not%20ernie%20king%22~4
Sue
EDIT
I see this conundrum has been put forward before.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=837462.18
Relpy #25.
My poor dizzy head ::)
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This just in. LOL
There is no remarriage for Violet Leith ROBBINS but there are 4 births of children to her and James Adam DYE,
The birth of their son James states that they were married in NZ.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C95X-4SMX-G
https://www.bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/home
Debra :)
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The marriage was on 24th July 1911.
So a very quick turn around from a marriage on 4th January.
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Hi Everyone
Thanks for all the information and help. Firstly Sue I have been reviewing all of the rootschats messages re this subject.
What I can say is that there is NO brother to James Richard BOW named Ernie OR anything close to that.
I have collated all the siblings of James R BOW. He has 2 DOLLARD siblings ie JOHN ALOYSIUS (named in Gazette) as J Bow and one sister Mary Ellen DOLLARD.
James half siblings are William/Alexander BOW, Colin McGregor BOW b 1896 Broken Hill d 1960, + Margaret Eileen BOW b 1902 in Broken Hill.
1901 Census has the family in Broken Hill
Colins son Frederick was killed in a drowning accident in B HILL 1925
There were some other BOW'S born to Mary Ellen and James Robert BOW in South Australia
As for that newspaper report with the whole Ernie King Brother to James R BOW. I think that is just really bad reporting, that is very confusing when you read it and contradictory.
How Violet wrote to an Ernerst King and the mother intercepted the reply etc etc makes no sense to me at all.
So I'm not going to worry about that too much.
As for James Richard in trouble (thanks for the clipping re 1913) It looks to me he may have been on the training ship SOBRAON there is a record in 1899 for a James Richard BOW.
Would be interesting to see.
Also Violet was divorced from hubby in Sydney in 1942 I think. I just had a quick look at that.
She deserted her husband James DYE left him with the 4 kids in Tasmania and she is all over the place from there.
Anyway now I have a clearer picture of what happened with James Richard BOW and the entanglement with RUTH LOWE and ADELINE RUTH LOWE.
You never know maybe Adeline Ruth met Ernest HOPE (Cannon?) while he was performing in Victoria. Just a wild guess.
I think it's interesting how James Richard BOW and Ernest ?? are both entertainers. Possibly moved in the same circles or heard of each other.
Fun to speculate. Thanks everyone so much for your time and help. It's quite a story Dianna
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Good to have the Bow sibling part worked through.
Sue
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Yes Sue. Agreed. Now I'm checking on Rate Books in Victoria "just in case" then maybe shipping records from Vic to Sydney. LOL Onwards and Upwards Dianna
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As for that newspaper report with the whole Ernie King Brother to James R BOW. I think that is just really bad reporting, that is very confusing when you read it and contradictory.
How Violet wrote to an Ernerst King and the mother intercepted the reply etc etc makes no sense to me at all.
So I'm not going to worry about that too much.
I do agree that this aspect of the reporting is not directly relevant to your search.
However I do note that Emma (nee Petersen ) ROBBINS had a difficult life.
Born 1871 in Ballarat (*21078) she had Violet b. 1894 (*8553) before her marriage to Arthur ROBBINS.
She seems to have had a number of children, some of whom registered with father stated (Arthur) and some with not stated.
The last of these birth registrations was Vera Ida Winifred in 1918 (aged 48).
She was known as a widow by 1910 according to a court report in that year.
The reason I look at this is to support the likelihood that she may have been keen to marry off Violet and may have been prepared to go to extremes to see it done, including forging the bride groom's signature and intercepting mal that might change Violet's mind ;D
Sue
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Oh that is interesting and I tend to agree with you there. There seems to have been a lot "plotting and scheming" going on there with that marriage to a practical stranger. The things people do. Thanks Dianna
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BOW was a travelling performer with Ditchams Travelling show when he came to Burnie.
He said he was Ernie King’s brother who lived in Hobart. Violet wrote to Ernie and he said "don’t marry Bow. He has a wife and child."
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/50470198?searchTerm=%22%20ernie%20king%22
Sue
He didn't say that Ernie KING lived in Hobart, just that he was there.
"At witness' house on the first evening she met defendant he told her he was Ernie King's brother, and that the latter was in Hobart."
Violet and James met in December 1910, 2 weeks before they married in Jan 1911. At that time, Ern/Ernest CANNON was performing at the Temperance Hall in Hobart which Marino LUCAS had reopened after renovations.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/178317407
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/10086317
Debra :)
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CANNON was also performing Jan 3rd 1911
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/186997861?searchTerm=%22ern%20acrobat%22~5
And mentioned again on Mon 11th Jan 1911
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/10087217?searchTerm=%22ern%20acrobat%22~5
Sue
EDIT: So plenty of time to get a letter to him and get and answer.
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Yes strange coincidence this Ern Cannon, then he is in Sydney about 1912. Hmmmm. I will go through the newspapers again tomorrow and track Erns movements through the different states. He seems to be in Sydney from memory in 1912 and first child Daphne Theresa was born in 1913.
I'm still wondering if Ern Cannon is really Ernest William Hope!!! If I could only find a photo of Ern Cannon that would clinch it. I posted a photo of Ernest Hope didn't I. Definately Indian Heritage. Thanks again. Dianna
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Ernest William Hope and wife Sarah
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Hi Haney
There's no doubt you have gone to lengths with certificate purchases in the efforts to sort this family story.
However, in reply #31 Debra has asked again about the birth certificate for Leonard KING, Father Ernest KING.
His birth was very close to the time of James BOW's bigamy saga. Have you sighted it?
It would be a direct download in Vic.
James BOW was arrested 25th Feb when Leonard would be about 3 months. The arrest was at the home of Ruth LOWE and arresting officer Sharpe states he saw Adeline at that home too.
So it would seem that the father of baby Leonard must have been about in March 1910 and the details of him on the BC might reveal something..
Also has the skin condition psoriasis ever been mentioned or inquired about in connection with Ern Wm Francis HOPE? I think it was the reason for his rejection as a serviceman.
It can be quite severe and may have been visually evident to family.
Sue
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Hi Sue
I'm trying to decide whether to purchase that certificate of LEONARD KING. I have found it on the Vic BDM.
I'm trying to follow really what this ERN KING has to do with JAMES Richard Bow to tell you the truth.
Leonard was brought up with the BOW surname for sure by the looks of it and it is he is died WW11?
I just cannot understand this really as Adeline is having a child to an ERN KING.
Then Violet Robbins is writing to an Ern King. I've tended to be sceptical of the newspaper report because of it's conflicting information.
I have sorted all of the siblings of James Richard Bow as stated before.
Again with the birth certificate of Leonard it may be full of lies anyway!
This is why I tend to try and find others doing research so I can see if they have certificates and then I can share with them what I have.
With Ernest William Francis I am going to ask about that psoriasis. Could be another "little connection"
I received today also the birth certificate of the first child of Ernest W F HOP and Sarah just to see place of birth for Ern etc. Just says born Marrickville NSW.
At least from the birth certificate it say's they were living at Tempe Road Bexley which matches up with some of the Sands directories.
Also I was considering purchasing the birth record for DOREEN RUTH Bow 1909 as this may reveal previous issue.
Will just have to way up the cost of purchasing more certificates. Thanks Dianna
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I've just sent a message to one of the extended family in the hopes that they can provide me with that Psoriasis detail. That is something he may have needed medical attention for during his life. Dianna
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Yes,
In those days it was a lifelong affliction which flared and subsided, but was not cured
Treatment was limited.
It was certainly sufficiently bothersome to be consistently grounds for disqualification in the forces.
I certainly understand your hesitation in rushing in to yet another certificate. The photo of Leonard shows a darkish chap, but.....
I think the only line of thinking was that Ern CANNON in Tas during the court case (and Geelong 3rd Dec 1910) EQUALS Ernie KING, EQUALS Ern HOPE.
It was suggested in a previous thread that Adeline had rather moved on from BOW by 1910 and that her mother Ruth had "adopted" him as her husband, while Adeline was with KING, CANNON.
It explains why Ruth was ranting in court "my husband"
Adeline was not at court.
I feel as if I'm writing script for B grade movie! ::)
Sue
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I've decided to bit the bullet and order a couple of certificates. Leonard King and perhaps Doreen's birth cert.
Its really frustrating asking the one contact I have for information. Very vague even though on HER tree she has Ernest's father was born in Mumbai.
https://carlaw.tribalpages.com/tribe/browse?userid=carlaw&view=0&pid=4599&ver=24949
The family take the birth date and place from his marriage certificate which say's he was born in Marrickville. Grrrrr!!
I don't think they know what's what really. ANYWAY at least I know I have searched as much as I can. Will post the certificates when they come through.
Thanks for all your constant patience and help. Dianna
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2 Certificates Doreens birth + Leonard
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Leonard King. This is what I mean by misleading certificates. The only consistency is that the father is Kitchenman. Jame R BOW was a Pastrycook on one of the Electoral Rolls I believe.
If Adeline was married to BOW why would she say the kids name is KING and apparently they are all living under the same roof (per 1911 newspaper report).
So annoying is it not. LOL
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1909
52 Kerr Street, Fitzroy, Vic
James Richard BOW, Pastrycook
Ruth BOW
1910 from Leonards birth he was born 294 Lygon St.
Is there a 1910 Electoral Roll for Ruth and/or James Richard
1911 He was in gaol for 6 months
1912/1913/1914
19 David Street, Carlton, Vic
James Richard BOW, Actor
Ruth BOW
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The other consistency is the month & year of marriage recorded on the two births.
October 1908
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I would say the confirmation of the details for Doreen look to be in order and likely to be truthful.
Born in hospital with complete witness details etc.
Leonard's birth was at the home Adeline shared with her mother.
No accouchier, and just a Mrs Dent certifying.
Ernest KING's birth stated to be 1887.
Ern Wm HOPE on enlistment birthdate 1888.
Ern Wm Francis HOPE date of birth at death 1890/1
Jas BOW birthdate was 1884. exactly 10 years out on Doreen's BC
Exact date of marriage given is at variance.
In my opinion, KING appears to be trying to slip into the identity of James BOW in many aspects, but does not use his name.
Violet ROBBINS in Tasmania asks James BOW, Are you the same man as Ern KING?
In 1920 in the military record of her husband (Thomas Henry LOWE) Ruth mentions her son in one of the letters from her. States his name Leonard and describes him as her other son and in another letter, my youngest son.
However Leonard uses the surname name BOW (not LOWE or KING) and it looks like she took him on when Adeline ended the BOW relationship/marriage.
None of this helps with the questions about CANNON/HOPE, regrettably ::)
for interest's sake. Is there a resemblance? Leonard and Ern Wm HOPE
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Hi re the photo of Leonard I can see no resemblence to Ernest W HOPE as there is no connection there .
I have attached the photo of Reginald P HOPE the second illegitimate child born to Ern Hope and Adeline 1915.
There you can see a resemblence. I will try and find a photo of Daphne Teresa Hope Robinson to see if she looks similar in colour/resemblence to Ern HOPE.
Wow this has been some hard research. That address of 294 Lygon st Carlton on Leonards birth was th same given in the court/paper report wasn't it??
I'm just now trying to get back into Trove. Well Ernest Hope may remain a mystery unless some of the descendants compare their DNA with each other.
Trying to co ordinate all of this is very time consuming and I'm not getting much co operation. Grrrr Thanks Dianna
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Looks like this is James Richard as well. Haven't seen the whole record though. A very interesting Character. LOL Dianna
New South Wales, Australia, Entrance Books for the Vernon and the Sobraon, 1867-1911Preview
Court, governmental & criminal records
Record information.
Name
James Richard Bow
Mother
Mary Ellen Bow
Father
Jas Robt Bow
Birth
1884 Appila, South Australia
Residence
11 Nov. 1899 Sydney, New South Wales
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Yes, 294 Lygon is the address for Ruth at the court hearing.
Shared with Adeline who was seen there by Constable SHARPE at the arrest of James R BOW.
Adeline was not in court.
Presumably she was at home with the infant Leonard.
Sue
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I came back with last look at Ernie today and spotted this which you may already know.
When James Richard BOW enlisted for the first time he signed on 29/10 1915.
He claimed as NOK his wife Mrs Ruth Adeline BOW who lived at
2 Miles Street Surry Hills
Reginald Percy HOPE was born September 1915 with parents Ernest Phillip and Adeline Ruth. I cannot remember seeing his BC
The surname HOPE was also used for the first birth registration in 1913.
The Sands Alphabetical Directory for 1915 shows Ernest CANNON at
2 Miles Street
From this I would be tempted to say that Adeline lived with a chap named Erest CANNON.
Sue
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SUE!!! I do not believe what I'm seeing. This is amazing!! Does the Sands directory mention an occupation.
I will fill in the details of Reginald Percy's birth and his sister Daphne Theresa. Unbelievable and thanks for going to that trouble. WOW. Thank you Dianna
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Well done ;D
Ernest CANNON is also at 2 Botany Street in the directories for 1916/17/18 which is the same address that Ernest HOPE gave when he enlisted.
Debra :)
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Hi Debra
This is incredible. Don't know why he is using two names, sounds suspicious doesn't it!!!
Who does qualify to be in the Sands Directories by the way?? Dianna
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For Erns first child B 10 August 1913 at 40 CLISDELL St. (this is most probably Surry Hills NSW)
Daphne Theresa - ILLEGITIMATE
Father: ERNEST WILLIAM HOPE, General Labourer, Aged 23 Born Sydney NSW
Mother: Adeline Ruth Formerly LOWE, now BOW Aged 24 Born South Australia
Informant: Adeline Bow, Mother, E. HOPE, Father, BOTH RESIDING AT 40 CLISDELL St
Registered 27 August 1913, Sydney
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Ernies second child:-
22 September 1915
Birth Place 29 George St REDFERN
Name: Reginald Percy - ILLEGITIMATE
Father: ERNEST WILLIAM HOPE, Occupation OIL PACKER, Born SYDNEY NSW
Mother: Adeline Formerly LOWE, now BOW, 25 Born S. Australia
Informant: ERNEST HOPE, ADELINE BOW, Father and Mother
George St, Redfern
Registered 9 October 1915 Redfern.
From Memory George St is adjacent to that BOTANY ST. which was re named COPE St Redfern
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I'm so glad that between us all we have worked to get an answer for you. ;D
Anyone who wanted to could put themselves in a directory as far as I know.
No qualifications needed.
I would like to add also that I do believe that Ern KING was the same identity and it is possible Adeline was not completely sure of the father of Leonard .
It does not appear to be Ern CANNON/HOPE.
Adeline was the person doing the registration for Leonard. Child not present. She cloaked the certificate in ambiguity, a little bit of Ernie and a little bit of BOW and gave Ernie the name KING which I think was not used again.
Sue
PS. No. No occupation. The snip I have posted is complete
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Thank you both so much. Now I dont think that we can deny that ERN CANNON the Acrobat was later known as ERNEST WILLIAM HOPE.
He may not have been performing after the birth of Dapne Theresa, not enough money perhaps in performing!!! Just guessing of course though
Maybe with this name 'CANNON' I can find out more!!! I can only hope. The plot thickens. So grateful for the help.
This family sure is "mixed" up!! LOL. There is some clarity now though. Many thanks Dianna
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Therefore the given names Ernest Phillip, starting with Leonard and lastly given in the father's name for Ernest William Frances HOPE clearly connect the three identitiies, KING, CANNON (if he has turned out to be HOPE)
I would consider the possibility that KING was possibly the man's real surname.
CANNON then HOPE.
Sue
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HI Sue
I will consider that! Thanks for your thoughts. I just found something re Sands Directory. Maybe nothing but?? There was an ADELINE CANNON in 1920 at 107 George St. Waterloo. Hmmm I wonder. I can't see the whole page or image though.
Well I think I have a concise timeline for Ernerst (with many monickers). I will keep making enquires though. When I gather more information on him (from the family) like pulling teeth LOL I will go from there. Kindest regards Dianna
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Using this link, you should be able to see relevant NSW Sands Directories in their entirety at the Archives.
Takes a bit of selection and keywork, but easy enough.
More reliable than the Ancestry version IMO..
https://archives.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/nodes/view/1899599
I cannot see your finding in the 1920 edition.
Sue
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Thanks I used the link and no Adeline CANNON there!! Odd. Dianna
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If you use the link to Sydney Sands that Sue gave, but use the "Part 8 Suburban Directory Waterloo to Woollahra" the entry is on page 4 of 61.
George St (after Wellington St) "107 Cannon Mrs, Adeline"
Modified to add:
Adeline CANNON is also at 107 George St Waterloo in 1921, but it is vacant in 1922. In 1919 there is a W H A SMITH at that address.
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OHHH! Got it thanks maddys52. Will have a look now, may mean nothing but have to check. As they seem to be using HOPE and/or CANNON. A headache. LOL Regards Dianna
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Sorry, I added a little bit extra to my post.
This has been an interesting if very complicated thread!
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Thanks maddys I found Adeline all good. Yes It has been a lot of fun and thanks to all the help from this board I now maybe able to find something on this Ernest Cannon-Hope.
I have a feeling that he was scooped up in India by one of the many Theatrical troops that travelled the World.
As he was a Bengali Street performer in his youth I would imagine he may have been "discovered" and brought here as part of a Troupe. As his first appearance in the newspaper in Vic in 1910, he may have come to Australia roughly at this time.
Anyway finding his origins MAYBE slightly easier now.
I will cast a "wider net" perhaps with searching for him in newspapers, Globally or even beginning in India, New Zealand.
Many thanks Dianna
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Thanks maddys for the extra bit. Interesting she is there in 1921, then possibly meets/lives with Mr
Robert Walton living in Botany.
One of the son's Edward was burnt to death in a house fire in 1956 in Botany.
Ernest Hope is on the 1924 Sands directory at Tempe Rd, BEXLEY NSW, this checks out with the address on his first child's birth certificate. Thanks Dianna
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In the Wise's Post Office directory for 1920, there is a Walter SEALY at 107 George St, Waterloo. However in 1921 at 109 George St, Waterloo is a "Jos" - Joseph? CANNON.
Just to add some more confusion.
https://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-625738625/view?partId=nla.obj-625749340#page/n653/mode/1up - 1921
https://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-666778458/view?partId=nla.obj-666952235#page/n627/mode/1up - 1920
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This is a fascinating thread.
I'm wondering if Ernest's claiming to be born in Marrickville has anything to do with the white Australia policy of the time.
Regards Jennaya
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In 1921, Mr and Mrs Richard Featon also lived at 107 George.
His wife was I think Mary, according to the Death registration.
Sue
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Hi Jennaya
There is a strong possibilty of that as when he married Sarah Jane Towell a lot of her family did not speak to her because of his ethnicity. Very unkind. From what I've been told he was a lovely man. Such a shame these things happen.
Hi Sue thanks for that extra bit of information. Dianna
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when did Adeline start to use WALTON?
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I will have a look now
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I know she is on the 1949 Electoral rolls in Chelmford St Botany. A lot of the family were there I believe. I don't think she actually married Walton. Still looking through my notes.
It seems she may have had a son EDWARD Walton who died in a house fire in 1956 when he was aged 30. So the "hook up" with Walton must have been around 1925 ish.
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1930 Electoral Roll
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At least by 1921
WALTON Annie M
42256/1921
F. Robert E
M. Adeline R
At REDFERN
Sue
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Thanks for that. So at least we know they Adeline and Ernie had split up 1920 ish. All good
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It seems she may have had a son EDWARD Walton who died in a house fire in 1956 when he was aged 30.
Is this the son, Arthur Edward WALTON?
March 26, 1956
The Sydney Morning Herald
Edward Arthur WALTON death registration Newtown 10861/1956 parents - Robert Edward and Adeline Ruth
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Have sent you a pm regarding a newspaper snippet from 1990.
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Hi maddy. Yes I would say that is him. He is listed as deceased on Adelines death certificate. Many thanks. Received pm. It absolutety is relevant. I'm trying to send a pm to you but it's not responding at the moment. Wow. Thanks so much. Dianna
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Looks like there was an inquist in Edward Arthur Walton's death!
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OOP'S sorry about the typo. INQUEST LOL
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A bit of additional interest :D
Robert Edward WALTON (Adeline's partner/husband) was a wool-washer in his earlier life on the NSW Electoral Roll in 1913. He lived at 50 John Street.
No others of the surname sharing the address.
It is about 200 metres from where John Street intersects with Botany Rd and Chelmsford Ave is few hundred meters again to the west.
I can see that the WALTON daughter Annie M. may have been Margaret Anne who died under the surname LOUGHNAN in 1977 (#1655) Sydney
Sue
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Hi Sue thanks. Always good to have another bit of information. I did see an Annie Margaret Walton marrying a CROKER in Redfern not sure if that is her, then you found her as LOUGHNAN that's good.
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Divorce!!!
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Looks like there was an inquist in Edward Arthur Walton's death!
There is also a deceased estate file (Date of Death 25/3/1956)
https://search.records.nsw.gov.au/permalink/f/1ebnd1l/INDEX2707654
Walton Edward Arthur
Deceased Estates Index 1880-1958
Item No: B139187 [20/6323] | Place: Botany | Remarks: Occupation: Wood Presser
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HI cupoflife. That may be interesting to see! Also Margarets notice in the paper 1977 from Ryerson
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HI cupoflife. That may be interesting to see! Also Margarets notice in the paper 1977 from Ryerson
Left hand page in this link https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=lL5f5cZgq8MC&dat=19770113&printsec=frontpage&hl=en
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"LOUGHNAN, Margaret Anne (Crocker) - January 10, 1977, at her residence Redfern, beloved wife of Reg, loved mother of W______ and L_____, dear nana of L____, M______ and R______. Sadly missed."
January 12, 1977
The Sydney Morning Herald
cupoflife beat me to it, but I'd typed it up anyway.
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https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/175100281/margaret-anne-loughnan
She is in Botany cemetery
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I've had bit of a look in the New Zealand newspaper just to see if Ern turns up there. I couldn't see anything though.
I've listed the companies he was apart of looks like 3 or 4 different ones. Then I discovered by reading one of the advertisements that the performers were all in the Vauderville Artists Federation.
Could be some records somewhere. Onwards and Upwards. Have to be cautious too when the name CANNON (only) is listed in the Advertisements as there was a J.CANNON as well I think. Just to complicate things. Dianna
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https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/126458067?searchTerm=j%20cannon%20acrobat
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I must say that dancer is not one of the description’s I have seen in connection with Ernie. But having said that we must remember he was an adaptable character as we have seen.
I have seen him as acrobat, equilibrist, and hand balancer.
Sue
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Probably a red herring but I will put it here anyway. A mention of an Ernest who was an acrobat...
The Evening Mail (Fremantle, WA : 1905 - 1910), Mon 16 Aug 1909, Page 2
A Vagabond Acrobat
A youth of 19, named Ernest White, alias King, was before Messrs. S. Thomson and J.Key, Js.P., in the Fremantle Police Court this morning on a charge of being a rogue and vagabond, by having been found sleeping in a boat shed at East Fremantle. Constable O'Shea said the man had been drinking about East Fremantle during the past two weeks, doing no work, and it was in consequence of a report that witness proceeded to the boat shed yesterday morning and found him. In answer to the Bench, White said he came from Sydney, and had been in a circus but got stranded at Fremantle. Sergeant Smythe said the youth was convicted in Perth last year for unlawful possession, and was a "ne'er do well." The accused said he had friends in Melbourne,, and had tried to get a Passage in several boats, but failed. He was an acrobat, and penniless. The bench in sentencing White to 7 days imprisonment, advised him to get out of the country, when he was released.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/256701580
The previous conviction in Perth...
The West Australian (Perth, WA : 1879 - 1954), Sat 28 Mar 1908, Page 10
Stolen Bags - Two youths named William Hulme and Ernest White were yesterday charged in the City Police Court, before Messrs. A. W. Glover and J. M; Lapsley, J.'sP., with the unlawful possession of a quantity of bags. There was a further charge against Hulme of being unlawfully on premises. White was fined 10s. and costs and on each of the charges upon which he was dealt with Hulme was sentenced to seven days' imprisonment. On a third charge of stealing, Hulme was remanded.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/25719118
Debra :)
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There were many births with that name in NSW, but coincidentally there was one in 1889 at Marrickville to a mother named Hope WHITE. Her full name was Hopewell Irwin WHITE, born in Dublin and then immigrated with her parents and siblings.
She also had an illegitimate daughter who died as an infant and married in 1891 to Francis Benjamin LEE. I cannot determine what happened to her son. Her husband commited suicide in 1924 and her death notice only mentions the daughter she had with LEE.
LEE - April 24, 1944, Hope Lee, late of 4 Westwood Avenue, Belmore, beloved mother of Myrtle and grandmother of Norma, aged 72 years.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/17867176
Debra :)
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Well, Hope WHITE was associating with this guy in 1888.
1884
https://search.records.nsw.gov.au/primo-explore/fulldisplay?context=L&vid=61SRA&lang=en_US&docid=INDEX2059327
1888
https://search.records.nsw.gov.au/primo-explore/fulldisplay?context=L&vid=61SRA&lang=en_US&docid=INDEX2061627
1914
https://search.records.nsw.gov.au/primo-explore/fulldisplay?context=L&vid=61SRA&lang=en_US&docid=INDEX2219682
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/228422274
Debra :)
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There were many births with that name in NSW, but coincidentally there was one in 1889 at Marrickville to a mother named Hope WHITE. Her full name was Hopewell Irwin WHITE, born in Dublin and then immigrated with her parents and siblings.
She also had an illegitimate daughter who died as an infant and married in 1891 to Francis Benjamin LEE. I cannot determine what happened to her son. Her husband commited suicide in 1924 and her death notice only mentions the daughter she had with LEE.
LEE - April 24, 1944, Hope Lee, late of 4 Westwood Avenue, Belmore, beloved mother of Myrtle and grandmother of Norma, aged 72 years.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/17867176
Debra :)
Hopewell Irwin WHITE
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/birth_returns/births_1871/03311/2213682.pdf
Ship: Commonwealth Year: 1877 https://www.marinersandships.com.au/1877/07/009com.htm
WHITE CHARLES
WHITE ALEXINA
WHITE ELLEN
WHITE JOHN
WHITE HOPEWELL
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Hi Everyone It's taking me time to wrap my head around all of this honestly.
I think the first thing to do if possible is to find the record of that Ernie White-King being put in prison for 7 days. There maybe a Gaol entry description of him with his "colour" being mentioned.
Could be a Red Herring but everything is worth pursuing, Wow I wonder if this Ernie in Western Australia is him.
Also Ernest William HOPE never mentioned his mother on his marriage to Sarah Jane Towell, very strange.
Anyway I will look at all of this again and see where to go from there. LOL.
Many thanks to everyone for all your efforts. Dianna
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Well this is all fascinating!! If HOPE LEE nee White died in 1944 why is she not mentioned on Ernies marriage certificate??? An oversite?? Or maybe I need to find the original document from the church.
Now there's another "family story" that MAY check out. It was told to me that Ernies sister died in a house fire as a child/infant. I could not find her on the NSW BDM for a death
I did see the births of Ernest and Ellen V so that's good with Hope White as the mum.
The assumption in the family was that the father of ERNEST WILLIAM FRANCIS HOPE was A white guy!!
But it likely (possible) that the Dad is Indian and the mother White.
So the thought is now that this dude Samuel FRANCIS (Indian) who was a border with Hope Whites family could possibly be Ernests father???
So he maybe the one who is/was the performer in India!! Just guessing. Anyway this is great speculating and trying to work it all out.
I've attached the snip from a tree that was put together (speculative) by one of the family. Will be interesting to see if ERNIE is in fact the son of HOPE IRWIN WHITE. Many thanks Dianna
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This seems to be Hopes husband Francis Lee. How sad really
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/159173403?searchTerm=suicide%20francis%20lee
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There were many births with that name in NSW, but coincidentally there was one in 1889 at Marrickville to a mother named Hope WHITE. Her full name was Hopewell Irwin WHITE, born in Dublin and then immigrated with her parents and siblings.
She also had an illegitimate daughter who died as an infant and married in 1891 to Francis Benjamin LEE. I cannot determine what happened to her son. Her husband commited suicide in 1924 and her death notice only mentions the daughter she had with LEE.
LEE - April 24, 1944, Hope Lee, late of 4 Westwood Avenue, Belmore, beloved mother of Myrtle and grandmother of Norma, aged 72 years.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/17867176
Debra :)
I drilled down on this BDM entry and the actual DOB is 09/06/1889.
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HI Jennaya you don't have the actual BC do you. Regards DIANNA
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HI Jennaya you don't have the actual BC do you. Regards DIANNA
Hi Dianna
I don't have the birth certificate. You can find actual date by searching using the year, then searching using half a year, then dropping off months till you have the actual date. I thought this might be of use if anyone in the family had heard of Ernest's birthday.
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Alexina White in trouble + daughters 1883
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/107232052?searchTerm=%27ALEXINA%20WHITE%27
1888 -Samuel FRANCIS boarded with the White family
1889 - ERNEST WHITE born in Marrickville to HOPE WHITE no father
1891 - Census Charles WHITE in St. Peters/Marrickville Cowper St 2 Boys, 3 Girls
1912 - Accident Alexina falls on footpath.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/228852280?searchTerm=alexina%20white
1918 - Possible deceased Estate file Alexina White in Redfern
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Just a note -
Samuel Francis (potential father for Ernest) was in prison by the time Ernest White was born in June 1889
31st Jan 1889 – he was sentenced for 3 years, for Pawning and stealing.
Newspaper report calls him Cingalese (from Sri Lanka / Ceylon)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/227327288?searchTerm=%22Samuel%20Francis%22
Prison records refer to him as Indian.
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Noting also that if the age at death is correct, Hope WHITE was 16 or 17 at the birth of Ernest WHITE.
So at least 10 years younger then Samuel James FRANCIS.
Sue
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Yes Hope must have been pretty young and even younger when Ellen V was born in 1888. Very interesting.
I've just looked on ancestry re inquests if the sister of Ernie did in fact die in a fire. No evidence so far
I looked before but that was under Hope surname.
Good to know also when this character Samuel Francis was in Gaol, thanks for that so around at least to conceive Ernest (and perhaps Ellen V White)
So he was out of gaol in 1892 and Hope remarried in 1891.
Also Debra did you actually see a death recorded for Ellen V WHITE at all. I'm just trying to confirm this story in the family that this sister died in a fire??
Many thanks Dianna
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Death of Ellen
WHITE ELLEN V 4681/1888 HOPE NEWTOWN
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I drilled down on this BDM entry and the actual DOB is 09/06/1889.
Good grief, I forgot that this was how I initially became interested in him, same date of birth. I have read so many news articles that my head is full!!
Not relevant but just gossip is the stuff that went on in 1906 between Hope and her sister Helen/Ellen.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/114318188
The two of them were also in trouble in 1883.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/107234027
Could this really be your Ernest?
Dianna you said that someone in the family had done a DNA test, have they found any matches outside the known family to at least get a list of connected surnames?
Debra :)
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Thanks Debra, that's very interesting the 1906 article lol. Love these stories. There are two people who have had their DNA test done to my knowledge.
One of them is loopylou who has posted on this thread. I sent her a personal message to see what names came up BUT no response.
The other person to my knowledge is Betty the last daughter of Ernest William Francis HOPE. She died last month and it was from her DNA that the 25% Indian blood came
I have been talking with her Grandaugther and her Daughter in law.
No one gets back to me. This is the problem. I may ask my nieces husband to have a DNA test done. It may help. SO annoying when people don't get back to you.
I don't know who was managing Betty's DNA test. I will try and find that out. Many thanks Dianna
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Thank you mckha I don't know why I couldn't find this record. Now I know. Most probably no fire etc. Trying to clear up these "rumours". Dianna
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I drilled down on this BDM entry and the actual DOB is 09/06/1889.
Good grief, I forgot that this was how I initially became interested in him, same date of birth. I have read so many news articles that my head is full!!
Could this really be your Ernest?
Debra :)
There is so much to read. Where else have we seen this DOB? Sorry if I am asking an obvious question.
PS Ellen V. White died 17/12/1888
Regards
Jennaya
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I am not sure where it comes from, just that the family has his day of birth as 9 June, but the year is 1890.
Adding, when he applied to enlist he was 28 years 5 months in November 1916, so that is around June 1888.
Debra :)
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I am not sure where it comes from, just that the family has his day of birth as 9 June, but the year is 1890.
Debra :)
That sounds promising as being the same person.
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The only other place is for the Railway employees. Also I think the family has just (possibly) this 1890 from his death??
He was 62 in 1952??? I don't even think that Railway employees has much? (anything to do with him). Who knows though! Right.
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Also you think that ERNEST would be using the name LEE, if his mother married in 1891, when Ernie was 2/3. Correct!!! This man is giving us all a migraine. LOL
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OR Was Ernest taken in by his Grandparents Charles and Alexina WHITE. So many questions. LOL
OR because he was half Indian, put up for adoption, fostered. Maybe the family didn't accept him!! Wow
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Also you think that ERNEST would be using the name LEE, if his mother married in 1891, when Ernie was 2/3. Correct!!! This man is giving us all a migraine. LOL
I'm thinking that Ernie may have been raised by someone else, or in a children's home. Due to him being a mixed race child born to a very young unmarried mother.
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That's quite possible. Not sure how I will ever find that out. I am going to try and find out if he was baptised at least. He was 1/2 Irish after all. Catholic?? Not sure I know HOPEWELL'S birth certificate has been posted (thanks). Will recheck. I doubt a Child born to a Catholic mum would not be baptised.
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Just another bit of gossip, the girl causing all the trouble at the theatre in 1912 - Violet Smith/Elsie Doyle (real name Emily Vennell). She is quite pretty but goodness knows what happened to her hair, perhaps they cut it in prison. She had a pretty terrible childhood.
https://search.records.nsw.gov.au/primo-explore/fulldisplay?context=L&vid=61SRA&lang=en_US&docid=INDEX2092691
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/168736541
Debra :)
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Samuel FRANCIS was certainly a shifty character
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/229991084
Not surprising, his age varied quite a bit LOL
1914 goal record states he is 58 (so born 1856) https://search.records.nsw.gov.au/primo-explore/fulldisplay?context=L&vid=61SRA&lang=en_US&docid=INDEX2219682
This could be his death (age 62) https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/188832109/samuel-francis
NSW Only 1 Samuel FRANCIS death in 1917 (14211/1917 Samuel FRANCIS; Father-JOHN; GRANVILLE)
Date of death is 28/09/1917 but burial date is 10/11/1917 (maybe a story there too)
https://rookwoodcemetery.discovereverafter.com/profile/26582872
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Hi again what I find intriguing is that his name does not sound in the LEAST bit Indian. Samuel Francis!!!! Hmmmm more alias's
Shifty for sure.
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Somewhere on here I read that Ernest HOPE has Mother unknown on his marriage to Sarah Towell.
This suggests that he wasn't raised by his mother.
Regards
Jennaya
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Yes Jennaya that is from the marriage certificate I have here. I alway's thouht that was very strange. Dianna and he apparently just made up the name for his father. LOL
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Endless possibilities, but I’m thinking along the lines of ……..
Ernest born as WHITE, but raised by somebody KING or CANNON.
Used as a third name Francis, after his father’s surname FRANCIS.
Used his mother’s name Hope as a surname HOPE when it suited or an alias was needed.
He would have learnt his acrobatic skills from whoever raised him, maybe not a blood relative. I doubt he saw much of his father.
I would take a look at his mother’s siblings ( the family from Ireland) to see if any of them were vaudeville entertainers or married a King or a Cannon.
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And important to see the 1908/1909 WA record of Ernest White aka King for description.
Seems it has to be a personal visit. Presumably there are agents you could use?
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He would have learnt his acrobatic skills from whoever raised him, maybe not a blood relative. I doubt he saw much of his father.
He somewhere learned to speak some Hindi.
I would bear in mind the recurrence of the name Phillip.
Based on what has been already found, Ernest had a basis for many names he used.
Sue
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I will email the library in Freemantle to see if they can offer anything re photo/description at the time he was in gaol for a week I think it was.
Finding early photos of him will be vital I think to link it all up. Possibly. Yes the White's could have been the acrobats who knows.
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I decided to purchase that Ernest White birth certificate. I knew it would help much but who knows down the track. At least there is an exact address!
I've also emailed the library in WA.
I found a couple of entries in the Polize Gazette there.
https://slwa.wa.gov.au/pdf/battye/police_gazettes/1908_Indexto30June.pdf
From the above link I have found
Ernest WHITE on page P7 Apprehensions, WHITE, ERNEST 83
On page 22 for Prisoners Discharged WHITE ERNEST 104
Dianna
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MMmm.
No previous issue.
Where does this place Ellen?
Interesting because in the strictest sense the column heading refers to "previous issue of this union"
So the wording on this BC might mean-
No previous issue of the union with Samuel. Ellen being another man's child
OR
She is lying
OR
When a child is illegitimate it's not required to be mentioned.
I don't know, but somebody will ;D
Sue
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I think it means previous issue of the marriage.
She wasn't married so couldn't fill out that part at all.
I'm fairly sure that Ernest and Ellen won't be mentioned on the birth certificates of children born after her later marriage.
Regards
Jennaya
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I agree I have seen this many times in my own family. Previous issue is not listed on the birth of an illegitimate child. Such a shame really. So not much valuable information on the BC of Ern BUT maybe able to track movements around this address and Newtown for the family of the WHITES.
I will check re baptisms also just in case for this area. Thanks Dianna
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A bit of info on the parents of Hope WHITE -----
Her father Charles White - charged with riotous conduct Newtown Sept 1894
Charles died 22 May 1897 (bootmaker; 13 King Street Newtown)
Her mother, Alexina White - charged with uttering counterfeit coin. March 1883
Alexina White – died 20 Dec 1913 (domestic servant, Newington Asylum)
Alexina’s mother’s surname was KING
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HI thank you for that extra bit. It will go straight onto the timeline. Now isn't that interesting. KING was the surname of Alexina's mum. Hmmmm.
It sounds like Ernest may have known at least a bit about his family. I am now contacting my resource at the Marrickville library see if he can squeeze out a few more bits and pieces. LOL. Many thanks Dianna
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I looked on Ryerson for Alexina, didn't see any death, burial information though.
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I may have to contact the NSW State Archives re Alexina being in Newington Asylum. Could be interesting.
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Place of burial for both Charles and Alexina – Rookwood, Church of England
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Thank you for that.
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I may have to contact the NSW State Archives re Alexina being in Newington Asylum. Could be interesting.
Newington Asylum was mostly for the elderly, though it also was available for the "ordinary pauper population", it began as an asylum (hospital) for infirm and destitiute women. After 1913 it was known as the Newington State Hospital and Asylum for Women.
Admission cards, patient medical reports etc only available at the Archives.
https://search.records.nsw.gov.au/permalink/f/1ednqkf/ADLIB_RNSW110005211
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Thank you maddys52. I will send them an email.
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I'm wondering also now the proximity of HOPE LEE (nee White) Ernies mum and Ernie and his family in BELMORE.
On the Electoral Rolls from 1937 up until Ernies death in 1952 he was living at 25 FORSYTH St. Belmore.
1944 from Hope Lees notice in the paper she is in Westwood Avenue Belmore.
Is this just a coincidence?????
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Re the below I sent to the WA library.
https://slwa.wa.gov.au/pdf/battye/police_gazettes/1908_Indexto30June.pdf
From the above link I have found
Ernest WHITE on page P7 Apprehensions, WHITE, ERNEST 83
On page 22 for Prisoners Discharged WHITE ERNEST 104
There response was:-
The State Records Office WA (SRO) have the digitised version of the WA Police Gazettes for some years. You can move the bar along the bottom under the picture of the gazettes to view particular years and search them. You can find the 1908 Police Gazette by selecting this link. Select the image of the Gazette that appears, wait for it to load then scroll down to the pages you want, 83 and 104.
Page 83 has this:- See attachment
Page 104 per attachment
While there were quite a lot of photos of the prisoners there was none that I could find for ERNEST WHITE I think there is one for William HULME though, will see if I can find that again (page 151)
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Ernest's release. This is only for 1908 though, I need to go through the link again BUT I could not see a Gazette that corresponded with the 1909 Newspaper report of Ernie being told to "Leave the country" I think that was 1909??
Also re the Belmore entry for HOPE LEE I'm now sure that is the correct one as her Granddaughter Norma Beryl Greaves is living there as well 4 Westwood Ave Belmore.
Thanks everyone. Dianna
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Looking at the Prisoners discharged for the week up until 28th August. He was sentenced to 7 day's so should be included in this week. I looked for the previous week as well, not there. No photo. Hmmmmm!! Dianna
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Assuming we are on the right track....
By the age of 18, Ernie had acquired sufficient skill to be employed by a circus and taken to WA.
A little research shows Fitzgerald's Circus had a season in WA from May 29th to September 1908 including Perth and Fremantle. They then went on to Adelaide. Wirth’s Circus was in the Eastern States at this time.
Prior to this Fitzgeralds had been in NSW until April 1908
I do not see a visit to WA from it or any other circus in 1909, the year of the "vagabond acrobat" news item.
I see no circus advertised in WA on or near August 16th 1909
By 1910, Ernie was performing in Geelong advertised as "late of Wirth's Circus"
While it could be true he was late of that Company, it seems it was not they who took him to WA.
It was commonly the practice of circuses to train very young children in their crafts while they lived as part of the circus, The children were "adopted" and a deal struck with the parents which promised care and education for the child as well as circus training. They would later join the troupe.
Phillip Wirth was particularly known for this practice.
It made me wonder whether this was how Ernie first learnt his skills. I would suggest it was not from his father, a cook of criminal tendency. ::)
However records show Wirth's Circus was out of Australia from 1893 to 1900.
Sue
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Hi Deb
Hopefully we are on the right track and thanks for this information. I cannot find now the advertisment in 1910 which said "late of Wirths circus". Perhaps you can fill me in on that!!
I guess that could be the case the circus took him in and he lived with them (which one who knows).
And again is he performing in a Theatre situation or a circus. Could he have been in the circus first then moved on to Vaudeville.
I must admit it has been really interesting doing research on the circus, the performers, accidents and all that the circus entails.
Anyway the search goes on and thanks for the information. Hopefully it will all "marry" up one day. Dianna
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Geelong 1910, this is the only one I saw. Dianna
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Also I didn't see any mention of an ERNEST WHITE acrobat anywhere. So it looks like he started using the name CANNON when he got to Victoria possibly. Dianna
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This was my mention re Wirth's
It doesn’t say Ernest but given his later references to family about his world records, I would take as the correct man
1910.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/149729230?searchTerm=%22cannon%20late%20wirths%22~12
I imagine, given his WA convictions, he was attempting to conceal his past by changing his name when he got to Victoria.
Sue
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Ahhhh! Got it Sue. Thanks so much, don't want to miss anything. It said in the 1930 Article under HOPE that he travelled the GLOBE. So he could well have been with Wirths (or?).
Thanks for refinding that. Great to see it.
Also I agree since the trouble in WA a name change looks likely. Dianna
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Looking at the records which have accumulated in this thread, I noticed that Samuel James FRANCIS on his NSW gaol record was 5 feet 4 inches in height.
I think considered short for an adult male in those times as it may be today.
Ernest William (struck through CANNON) HOPE on his WW1 record application was the same height exactly.
Heredity?
Sue
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Seems likely to me the heritage. I'm going to look at this today
https://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-492995583/view?partId=nla.obj-492998171#page/n18/mode/1up
The book is called "ROUND THE WORLD WITH A CIRCUS" Looks interesting. Hopefully a snippet will be in here.
Also PHILIP Wirth was sometimes and Acrobat and because he was a big guy, he was used as the base for the other acrobats balancing on Top. Hmmm Philip, another one of Ernests names used!
There is also a book called " The life of PHILIP Wirth" Hopefully the National library will have this.
Thanks for the clue on Wirths Circus, could possibly lead somewhere. Dianna
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While you are looking at the circus side of things, I’ll mention the “Brothers Martine” who were described as “comedy trampoline acrobats” and were advertised as “somersault record breakers of the world”. They made their first appearance in Australia in January 1910.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/123826194?searchTerm=%22Brothers%20Martine%22%20AND%20acrobat
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Hi Neale1961
Many thanks for that. Very interesting. Dianna
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Just wanted to add this as well. From the 1891 Census in Newtown. Looks like Ernies mum is with the Stepfather Francis B LEE.
Just the two of them no Ernie by the looks of it. I don't know whether Hopes sister took Ernie in as she is the witness at his birth. Mrs Douglas.
I will try and track down the brother John as well to see where he fits in!! So was Ernie taken in by the church, doesn't seem to be on the 1891 Census with the WHITES either, Charles and Alexina.
You can't be sure 100% because it is only the head of the household that was named.
Two of the children of the sister Helen were baptised in St. Silas' church in Waterloo one Leah in 1886 and the other David Emmanuel in 1894 he died in 1895 in Petersham Church of England
I haven't given up yet finding a baptismal record for Ernie. Thanks Dianna
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I will try and track down the brother John as well to see where he fits in!!
I had a brief look at John. He seems to have been fairly unremarkable.
John Irwin WHITE
• 1885 (age 16) ran away from his indented apprenticeship with Joseph Daveport, Newtown.
• Married 1911 QLD Elizabeth GROROCK (Cunnamulla)
• His WW1 military papers are at NAA
• Died 30/31 July 1933 Rockhampton Queensland
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/160465954/john-irwin-white
(birth information given on Find-a-Grave is wrong)
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Hi thanks for the John I WHITE information, that really helps so it doesn't look like there were any descendants from him.
One less thing to do. Dianna
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Just reading as much as I can about WIRTHS before I make any more enquiries, it say's here that LOCAL TALENT WAS SELDOM ENGAGED. Hmmm. Of course this may not include children that have been "adopted" into the circus.
Fascinating reading about the circus.
Each year they, or their trusted lieutenants, searched for fresh acts and brought such artists as the Flying Codonas from the principal circuses of Europe and North America; by contrast, local talent was seldom engaged or developed, although Philip was an excellent trainer of horses and somersault equestrians. Both brothers acted as ringmasters. Built for £40,000 by the Sydney Municipal Council and leased to the brothers, Wirth's Hippodrome opened in April 1916. Rebuilt in 1927, it became the Capitol Theatre.
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Just reading as much as I can about WIRTHS before I make any more enquiries, it say's here that LOCAL TALENT WAS SELDOM ENGAGED. Hmmm. Of course this may not include children that have been "adopted" into the circus.
This statement by the author does not realy make sense and is contradicted by newspaper reports of the times.
My reading suggests...
From the late 1880's the circus toured with local performers and when they commenced their world tour in 1893, it was with local performers included.
During this 7 year excursion, large overseas recruitment took place with artists contracted for varying periods to perform in Australia on the return in 1900.
Phillip Wirth travelled again in the early 1900's to gather fresh talent.
With the difficulty in locating Ernie in childhood, I am wondering whether he was one of the adoptees.
His reminiscences of global adventures and heyday of circus and records etc makes me think maybe he went as a younger person with the circus overseas. And as mentioned, the name Phillip has appeared as his own name more than once.
Nothing to clearly support this though >:(
Sue
ADDING
An example of Wirth's "adoption "practice.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/197951638?searchTerm="phillip%20wirth%20warren%20"~15
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Wow that's amazing re the adopted boy by WIRTH. So there was a lot of that happening by the looks of it then.
Will get my ducks in a row and try and find more. Also I think that Fitzgeralds circus was a big deal too and the Wirths took that over.
It is interesting in the WA record for Ernie where he states he had Friends in Melbourne (or Vic). Hmmm.
I will contact the State Records in WA also because I need to find out whe he was released from gaol. Just to get that straightened out. Once again Many thanks.
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An interesting find this morning following the thought of Ernie being inducted into the circus.
This is a list of children
https://www.pennygaff.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/Table_1_Children_inducted_into_circus.pdf.
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Children inducted into circus, 1851-1928
As late as the 1930s, Australian circus proprietors inducted young children to train as performers. The children were typically illegitimate, orphaned or abandoned and occasionally of mixed white and Indigenous descent. To stimulate further research, The Penny Gaff presents the following list of the children inducted into circus between the 1850s and the 1930s.
For further information, see Mark St Leon’s article, ‘Adopted apprentices: Juvenile recruitment in Australian circus, 1847-1942’, Labour History, No. 110, May 2016, pp. 97-124. ISSN: 0023-6942
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Interesting document!
I suspect the list is not complete.
I spotted the 2 Warren children there. The subject of the news item I highighted.
I see some very young children listed. For instance the little Hall sisters were only 3 and 5 years old.
Sad.
Sue
Completely off topic.....
Mary Hall chose a sad end later in life.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/84525345?searchTerm=%22circus%20adopted%22~6
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Yes Sue I would have to agree that list isn't complete.
Wow never heard of that before, poisoning yourself with match heads. So sad. Thanks for the story.
Ernies story will end up bigger than Ben Hur I think.
From the 1930 Newspaper article on Ernest HOPE it does seem to indicate a life in the circus (perhaps)
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Mrs White (Alexina?) I came across this yesterday and I've learned something new.
I didn't know what a BAILEE was and the article didn't make sense until I found out that a Bailee was someone who was in charge of taking care of someone elses property or similar.
The article is from August 1888. Interesting
Also the WA Archives is going to look for me next re Ernest WHITE'S (Kings) realease from prison in 1909. Here's hoping something turns up. LOL. Regards Dianna
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Samuel Francis boarded with the White family around July - August 1888.
I wonder what he felt the debt to the family was?
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Hi Neale
I wonder was it rent money or money he owed Charles White for boarding there.
Just calculating too, the conception of Ernest WHITE (Hope) possibly September 1888 to be born 1889.
Also Hopes daugther born/died in Newtown in 1888. A lot going on with these people. Thanks Dianna
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Also I'm assuming that is was MRS White who served the 14 Day's hard labour. I couldn't find anything re this for Alexina being imprisoned.
I imagine that would have caused Samuel Francis to leave the White household as a border unless it was all forgiven. Dianna
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I wonder was it rent money or money he owed Charles White for boarding there.
That was my thought too.
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Hi
Looking back through my notes on this most intriguing thread, I found this aspect which I had not raised before.
The reason would be that it probably has no real bearing on the case ;D.
When Samuel James FRANCIS was first convicted in 1884 it was for theft of a bracelet from the Sydney home of Miss Ada LEE. She was an actress as was her sister Jeannie LEE.
At that time Samuel was a servant in Jeanie's home where I think Ada was staying.
Samuel then left abruptly.
Ada died of plague in Sydney in 1902
Her parents were Edwin and Mary.
It is, I would say nothing more than coincidence that Samuel later became associated with another LEE family when Hope WHITE married Francis B. LEE after the birth of Ernest, whose father we are proposing was Samuel
Just a side thought but maybe enriches the picture ;D
Sue
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Thanks Sue. Also why does this man have such an Anglo/English sounding name. Doesn't sound at all Indian to me. Samuel James FRANCIS.
Another Alias situation OR was he brought up by English people. (Orphanage?? perhaps).
I know so many questions. LOL
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I recall looking at the fibis website when Samuel FRANCIS was first mentioned - there are a number of entries for that name, so perhaps not uncommon in India, even if of Britain originally.
https://www.fibis.org
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Hi maddys I will follow up on that, now that a lot of information has been gathered on Samuel FRANCIS.
From the newspaper reports etc, he has a birth region (place) as Hindostan, Madras, India Generally and described as Chingalese, and just mentioned as a Coloured Man.
At least I have a general birth year and the photo from his time/times in gaol could be very useful. Many thanks Dianna
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There are also a great many Indian names that have a syllable "sam" that are often anglicised to Sam and thence Samuel.
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Thanks for that. I just had a very quick look on fibis, I didn't see anything that popped out at me. First tried Births, Deaths, Marriages and Orphanages etc.
That will take quite a while to go through everything. Regards Dianna
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From his prison records, we only know that Samuel Francis came to Australia when he was young. To me, that suggests he was too young to remember the year, or the name of the ship.
So who did he come with?
Maybe he was a young domestic servant for a British family who have been in India / Ceylon.
Francis may not have been his original surname.
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Hi Neale1961. You maybe right, he could have been a servant for a family. That would be interesting to find out1
Just another little snippet. Ernie could have been performing with another guy named SCHOTT
The Sun (Sydney, NSW : 1910 - 1954) View title info Sun 12 May 1912
Page 5
FILM FACTS and FANCIES
The evening vaudeville scissions of.rheVeolj will bring, forward in song,' dance, and merry jest' the' following artiste: — Tom Saunders, Fredi Mi-.vrioli, Cannon and Schott (hand balancers and ' act 'bate),
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/228860911?searchTerm=%22CANNON%20%2B%20SCHOTT%22
Also Wirth Brothers is advertised on this page too. HMMM
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Thanks Sue. Also why does this man have such an Anglo/English sounding name. Doesn't sound at all Indian to me. Samuel James FRANCIS.
Another Alias situation OR was he brought up by English people. (Orphanage?? perhaps).
I know so many questions. LOL
I wonder if he had an English father and Indian mother. I have read articles about men from England taking Indian wives when they were working there.
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Hi Jennaya
It seems more likely that it is the opposite. White (Irish) mother and Indian father. Thanks Dianna
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Hi Jennaya
It seems more likely that it is the opposite. White (Irish) mother and Indian father. Thanks Dianna
I was referring to the parents of Ernest the acrobat. Do you know who they are?
Regards
Jennaya
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I was referring to the parents of Ernest the acrobat. Do you know who they are?
Regards
Jennaya
Hi Jennaya
The current theory is that Ernest the acrobat was the son of Hope WHITE and Samuel James FRANCIS.
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Hi Jennaya
The current theory is that Ernest the acrobat was the son of Hope WHITE and Samuel James FRANCIS.
Sorry, I actually meant Samuel FRANCIS parents. Or perhaps he just Anglicised his name when he came to Australia.
Regards
Jennaya
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Regarding the news snip Repy #194, haney. Working with Schott.
Equilibrists of the moment..... Aug 1911. Lithgow Mercury.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/219536833?searchTerm=%22equilibrist%20shott%22~6
And 30th Sept same year at Auburn NSW.
The greatest of equilibrists,,,,,,
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/85990482?searchTerm=%22equilibrist%20shott%22~6
I must look back in the thread and see what else do we have as happening in Aug and September 1911.
Sue
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Wow I never thought to look under SHOT. Thanks hope that is him
TASMANIA (From Newspapers)
1910 Lucas Grand Vaudeville Company Mercury Newspaper and Daily Post Newspapers
21, 23, 24, 27, 28, 30 December through to 31 December 1910
1911 Jan 3rd
1911 Jan 7th Farewell Performance The Mercury
1911 Jan 11th.
SYDNEY
1912 23 Feb The Robertson Advocate Newspaper "CANNON Sensational Acrobat"
1912 1st March Hunter's Vaudeville Entertainers
1912 July 21 Mentioned as Witness Ern CANNON Acrobat
1912 August 19, 20 > 24 Performing in Newcastle NSW
1913 10th of August Daughter Daphne Theresa born as HOPE with Adeline Ruth LOWE/BOW Address is 40 Clisdell St Surry Hills
So possibly he goes from Tasmania up to Sydney. Very interesting. Many thanks Dianna
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Just for interest - An audio and some old film footage about Wirth’s Circus
https://www.nfsa.gov.au/latest/wirths-circus-home-movies
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WOW that was amazing see this. Thank you
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Ernest. Activity.
1910 March. Conception of Leonard Ernest King. (not attributed to Ern White/Cannon) though reg. is dubious.
1910 October. Geelong Vic
1910 c. November birth of Leonard (above)
1910 December to Jan 11, 1911 Tasmania.
1911. March Court case in Tas. Ern (as King) said to be in the state.
1911. August and September NSW
1912. February NSW
Sue
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Hi Thanks Sue
Just another little snippet. Ern and Shott in Victoria 1911. They sure got around!!
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25 somersaults in 17 seconds doesn't seem possible. !!
Had you though of looking for Ernest in coastal passenger lists at this time?
https://prov.vic.gov.au/explore-collection/explore-topic/passenger-records-and-immigration/coastal-passenger-lists-1852
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Hi No it doesn't sound possible does it. Maybe a typo/exaggeration. Thanks for the tip. I will have a look at that. Whether he is listed as an individual or with a troupe/company may prove interesting.
I'll have to use all his names I guess. LOL Fun. Thanks Dianna
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Hi just checked the link you sent. For Ernest KING, CANNON, WHITE and HOPE. Only one found that doesn't fit. Thanks Dianna
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Just to add another place to your timeline for Ernest CANNON:
Prahran, Victoria in April 1911 "Cannon and Scott will give an exhibition of equilibrium, hand balancing and chair pyramids"
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/165102934
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Thank you maddys I see another spelling variant of SHOTT as Scott. LOL.
It will be interesting if I can find anything on Ernest WHITE, KING, CANNON etc before his trouble in WA previous to 1908
Wonder what name he was using then???
I've been told there is a photo of Ern balancing on chairs, if I ever live to see it. Many thanks
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Hi Just a couple of certificates to add for today. Doesn't help much but I wanted to see them. LOL
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Hope LEE death certificate
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Interesting Dianna,
Although it is not required for the certificate, and therefore not listed on Hope's DC, I did wonder whether Myrtle the informant daughter knew of her half-brother?
Sue
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Hi Sue
Maybe no one knew about Ernie??? Will always be left wondering. At least we know now when Ellen was born possibly May 1888. Just interesting seeing what HOPE was up to around this time.
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NSW birth 8/5/1888
9142/1888 Ellen V. WHITE; Mother-HOPE; Newtown
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Thank you cupoflife. That adds up perfectly for a death in December of a 7 month old. Thanks
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Hi everyone
I have just received this from Western Australia re Ernie. Does it appear 1/2 Caste under his name.
I will have to double check on this with WA just in case but that is what I am seeing. Woo Hoo. Dianna
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I see that too
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Hi Debra re reply 111. Doesn't seem to be a Red Herring now!! Thanks for finding that. Even if there is no photo in WA him being 1/2 Caste is a really good description.
Now why he is Catholic is another mystery. His White family were Protestants, another reason I believe they had little to do with him.
I have a small hunch he may have been with Fitzeralds circus which was taken over by Wirths, just a hunch though. Dianna
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Thanks mckha great to have more "eyes" on this. Thanks Dianna
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https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/256701580
The above is the second conviction 16 August 1909
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/25719118
The above was for Sat 28 Mar 1908
This doesn't match the 12 May 1908 Conviction in Perth.
Maybe that was not in the newspaper???
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13 May 1908
Here is mention about Ernest White giving false name and address
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/28841382?searchTerm=%22False%20name%22
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Hi Neale
Thanks for that!! Alway's something new with this guy. It's confusing as when it say's before whom, the name on the conviction sheet doesn't seem to match the newspaper. Wonder why? Many thanks Dianna
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It's confusing as when it say's before whom, the name on the conviction sheet doesn't seem to match the newspaper. Wonder why?
Error / sloppy work by the newspaper reporter?
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Yes, I also read ½ caste on Ernest’s prison record, and I was also interested to see religion as RC.
Here are some notes I took in relation to circuses in West Aust when this was first mentioned (many posts ago!)
• Hylands Circus was in West Australia in 1907
• Bernard’s Circus in WA May 1908. Seems to be a smaller outfit than Fitzgerald’s Circus.
• Fitzgerald’s Circus and the 5 Flying Herberts – in WA 1908
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/90429693?searchTerm=circus
Note -The Flying Herberts (acrobats)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/90483067?searchTerm=circus
interesting read - mentions the members and training at 12 yrs old, etc.
The 7 Flying Herberts were with Wirth’s Circus in 1906
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/186561438?searchTerm=%22Flying%20Herberts%22
From about 1907 (George) Dalbeanie the “great equilibrist” appears in Australia - often on same bill as the Flying Herberts, and with the Fitzgerald’s and Wirth’s Circuses.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/90423452?searchTerm=Dalbeanie%20AND%20equilibrist
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Hi.
Yes half-caste.
Yes, I would agree about Fitzgeralds Circus.
In reply #162, I mentioned that Wirth's was doing the Eastern States at that time. It was NSW and Qld I think..
It would be interesting to know how much Hindi he actually spoke.
Have you any idea about that Dianna?
A few words could be picked up anywhere, but to carry on a conversation, he would have needed a lot more exposure.
Religion.....
Ernie's proposed father Samuel FRANCIS states Wesleyan.
His mother's husband Francis B. LEE who suicided in 1924, was buried in the Independant section of Rookwood.
Francis B LEE was b. NZ to Francis and Anna (nee Stewart) LEE Religion??
Dianna says the WHITE's were Protestant.
Phillip WIRTH was buried in the Anglican section of North Adelaide Cemetery.
Hard to pinpoint the RC element.
Sue
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Hi Sue re the Hindi, I'm not sure. I know he used to call is wife Sarah "memsahib" which is a term of respect I believe to a (white?) woman.
I would have to gather more information about that. Which is like trying to pull teeth. LOL.
I have two contacts in the family and I believe one of them Betty's Grandaughter is going to try and find some photos/etc.
She is the one who told me about the Hindi language.
Of course he could have picked this up from one of the other performers who were Indian OR if he travelled in India could have picked it up there. So many theory's
The religion situation (with Samuel Francis) is all over the place.
I cited three? different ones ie WESLEYAN, RC and Mohomat?? I will have to find that record again. I think it was the 1884 Conviction for Samuel F.
The records I have seen re BDM'S suggest that the WHITES were Church of England!
Their ethnicity could have been originally English.
Yes it is hard to pinpoint. I thought the Fitzeralds may have been Catholic OR Ernie was adopted by Catholics (and kept his real name WHITE) OR what other reason.
He was left at the door of the Catholic Church??? Newtown, Marrickville (ONLY guessing)
I don't see evidence that Ernies aunty too him in. Also her child/children baptised C of E. in Redfern
The only anomaly is the brother of HOPE WHITE who died in Qld was buried in the Catholic cemetery there.
Hard to sort out I know.
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This is the record with "MAHOM'T". If that is supposed to be "Muslim" I doubt that he was (not a true believer anyway) as Muslim men do not drink Alchohol or have Tattoo's from my understanding.
So Samuel Francis is telling the Authorities a lot of fibs.
Again we don't know if he may have come to NSW as a Servant to a family.
He did make reference to a "country man from Hindostan" when he was accused of stealing a ring I think. He said it was given to him by his Countryman.
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This is from 1889 the stealing from Dr Sly.
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The only anomaly is the brother of HOPE WHITE who died in Qld was buried in the Catholic cemetery there.
John was buried in Anglican section.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/160465954/john-irwin-white
The White parents were married in Church of England and their burial was also C of E in Sydney.
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An expanded version of the item posted by Neale earlier. Quite a nice and interesting read.
It has a picture of the Herbert Troupe. 1905.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/164038516?searchTerm=%22herbert%20troupe%20circus%22~16
Sue
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Hi Neale1961. Yes you are right!! His enlistment say's C OF E as well. I must have been thinking of something (some one else). Hard to keep all this straight.
Hi Sue I will enjoy reading through this article. Thanks
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I would like to note that I believe the name Phillip seen 3 times in Ernie's paperwork is significant in some way.
And would like to add of possible interest, (but posssibly not ;D)there were a small number of people in the Sydney are in the late 1890's and onwards with the surname PHILLIP. No "S" ending.
Sue
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Hi thought I would just put in to the mix from the 1913 Electoral rolls. We didn't get that far I don't think.
I do have Ernie and Adeline living at 40 Clisdell St. Surry Hills in 1913 from their daughters birth certificate
I tried yesterday to log into the State Library eresources so I could check out (possibly) more newspapers than what is available on Trove to try and find Erns possible movements, under that name WHITE (or??). Anyway that didn't work out as I was locked out and couldn't get back in so looks like I will have to use the "Ask a Librarian" option.
Onwards and Upwards and it's been great the progress that has been made. Thanks Dianna
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I'm not sure that the NSW Library eresources will have any Australian newspapers other than you can find on trove earlier than 1954. Through the Library you can access various newspapers for after this date. I have just logged in now and it seems to be working ok.
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Hi Sue I was thinking more of overseas newspapers to see if there were any entries for Ernie for the missing years previous to 1908 in WA.
Theres something called Gale? re the newspapers I think. Anyway I don't know what's happening with my library card! Maybe it needs updating. I was using it during CoVid though. All good Dianna
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Apologies maddys I called you Sue I think I need a cup of tea, a bex and good lie down as my mother used to say. LOL
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Yes, you can see overseas newspapers. Gale Primary Sources is a great database, there are also Chinese and other newspapers on the NSW Library eresources. I have had a look previously for Ernest CANNON/WHITE/HOPE etc using various keywords like acrobat and chair balancer etc, but couldn't find anything. Certainly worth another pair of eyes!
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Hi thanks for checking on Ernie. Considering his age he may have not been billed on his own, just a guess of course. He seems to have come into his stride in later years 1910-1912 and onwards.
I will contact the National library as they hold electoral rolls 1913, 1915, 1916, 1917, 1919 on microfiche, see if someone there will have a look for me.
I will also have to contact them as they seem to have quite a bit of information on Entertainers/Theatre etc.
Maybe nothing specific on Ern but who knows. The hunt continues. Thanks