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Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: jess5athome on Saturday 16 August 25 21:19 BST (UK)
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Good evening, I have in my possesion a certificate issued by the German ministry of Education Army Command dated 12th April 1922.
The subject is in regard to a man being authorised to wear his uniform from his previous unit and is signed by:
Dr Gessler, Defence Minister
Von Seeckt, Chief of Army Command.
The man in question is named A D Groth Lieutenant (Retired ), and his last Regiment was the 15th Cavalry Regiment, is it possible to find out anything about him, I know its a big ask, but any help as always would be greatly appreciated.
Many thanks, and as always my very best regards.
Frank.
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There seems to be at least three 15th cavalry regiments (Dragoons, Hussars and Uhlans)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Imperial_German_cavalry_regiments
What is the actual German Text on the certificate?
Tony
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With that date it is likely he served in the Great War - I suggest you post a query on their website
https://www.greatwarforum.org/
Lots of very helpful people on there.
jds1949
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I would start here: https://www.familysearch.org/en/wiki/Germany_Military_Records
And to add to the link which tonepad provided, this link shows where the various German regiments were based in peacetime: Imperial Cavalry Regiments: Prussia, Saxony and Württemberg (https://web.archive.org/web/20110121172609/http://home.comcast.net/~jcviser/army/rgtscav.htm)
Also, this collection on Ancestry may be helpful: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/1631/
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Hi, thank you all, for your very kind replies and for providing the links, I will follow all of your advice and see what I can find.
tonepad, the text on the document is as follows.
Once again my thanks to you all
Frank.
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The man in question is named A D Groth Lieutenant (Retired )
So his name is actually a.D. ("außer Dienst") Heinrich Groth ...
There seems to be an address in pencil on the first image ... hard to decipher, but could the place name be "Münster"? Unfortunately there are a few towns with that name, but a possibilty is "Münster" in Westfalen where Paderborn is located.
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Tree Spirit, thank you so much for that information, following the links from tonepad and Andy J2022 I put a search in for Heinrich Groth and one possibility is:
NAME: Heinrich Groth
BIRTH DATE: 16 Mär 1892 (16 Mar 1892)
BIRTH PLACE: Techelsdorf Kiel
COMBAT ARM: Kavallerie
TYPE OF UNIT: Ersatz-Kavallerie-Formationen
UNIT: Ersatz-Eskadron 6. bayer. Chevauleger-Regt (Standort Bayreuth)
found on WWI Personnel Rosters 1914 - 1918.
Regards
Frank.
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2 Things
1 - There is no guarantee that Heinrich took part in WW1.
2 - If he did take part in WW1, he would not have been in the "Reiter-Regiment 15" because it was established in the spring of 1920 (and stationed in Paderborn and Munster):
https://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gliederungen/Kavallerieregimenter/KavR15.htm
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2 Things
1 - There is no guarantee that Heinrich took part in WW1.
2 - If he did take part in WW1, he would not have been in the "Reiter-Regiment 15" because it was established in the spring of 1920 (and stationed in Paderborn and Munster):
https://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gliederungen/Kavallerieregimenter/KavR15.htm
Thank you, every day a learning day, onwards and upwards :)
Frank.
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As TreeSpirit has indicated, references to Imperial German Military History is misleading here.
The German Army was reorganised under the Weimar Republic following the Treaty of Versailles.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3rd_Cavalry_Division_(Reichswehr)
Tony
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As TreeSpirit has indicated, references to Imperial German Military History is misleading here.
The German Army was reorganised under the Weimar Republic following the Treaty of Versailles.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3rd_Cavalry_Division_(Reichswehr)
Tony
Many thanks again for your kind reply, and the link, I shall have a look in full when home, I have a small photograph of a man which came with the certificate, I shall post it when home, it may add a little light to the thread.
Frank.
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I noticed that their were quite a lot of guys with that name in WW1. Currently we don't know the name of his regiment during WW1 (if he was a soldier in WW1 of course), so do you know anything else about him e.g. (approx) date of birth, birth place, parents etc
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Good evening, Tree Spirit, unfortunately I know nothing at all, when I got the certificate it was said it was a:
"Original German Ww1 Photo Plus WW1 Reference Letter 1922 Leutnant 15 Reiter Rgt" and it came with a photograph which is attached.
Regards
Frank.
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The Epaulette on the photo appears to have 21 on it, so presumably not Reiter-Regiment 15.
Tony
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Great photo ...
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tonepad, (Tony), yes you are correct, I am slowly coming to the conclusion that the certificate has absolutely nothing to do with the photograph, and they are in no way connected.
Tree Spirit, isn't it just :)
Frank.
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Good evening, after a bit of research and discussion, I can confirm that the jacket the man is wearing is a "Ulanka" so he is definitely a cavalry man, with as already stated a number 2 on his shoulder board.
Regards Frank.
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Hello,
The uniform is not an Ulanka. It is an Überrock (Engl. undress frock coat). The arrangement of the buttons on an Ulanka was different; there was a large gap between the top button and the one below it. An Ulanka was buttoned down on both sides, unlike the Überrock, which was a double-breasted jacket in effect. The Überrock had a very distinctive stand-up collar.
Here is a good picture of the uniform https://spessart-militaria.de/produkt/preussen-ueberrock-und-schirmmuetze-fuer-einen-leutnant-im-11-artillerie-regiment/ (https://spessart-militaria.de/produkt/preussen-ueberrock-und-schirmmuetze-fuer-einen-leutnant-im-11-artillerie-regiment/).
It was not limited to artillery and pioneer officerss. In fact, the young officer was probably a Leutnant in the Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 20, not 2.
This type of frock coat was removed from the range of uniforms with the revised regulations of 1915.
The double-breasted kleiner Rock became regulation dress at the time. That tunic, however, had a turn-down collar.
The picture is quite probably pre-war. Interestingly, it bears a stamp of the local tram company (Straßenbahn).
By way of clarification, Leutnant a.D. (außer Dienst) = retired Lieutenant.
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JustinL, my apologies for the delayed reply, thank you so much for that information and the link you kindly supplied, it's greatly appreciated.
Regards
Frank.