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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: Matt R on Saturday 16 August 25 13:51 BST (UK)
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Hello Rootschatters,
I am hoping somebody may be able to assist me in trying to solve something of a puzzle for me regarding my 4x great-grandmother, Ann(ie) McKay/Mackie.
For years now, I have faced a stumbling block trying to trace Ann's origins and indeed her parents.
According to various census entries, Ann was born in approximately 1822 and she married a nailmaker (later miner), Ralph Abercrombie Hastie.They had ten children together, all in Scotland, and the birth certificates of the latter children state that Ann and Ralph had married in Edinburgh on 9th April 1842 (first child Jane Marshall Hastie born 1844 in that same city).
I have never been able to find a marriage entry for Ralph and Ann, despite them consistently providing a date to the registrar of 09/04/1842. This leads me to believe that either they did not actually marry, or the ceremony was conducted in a non-conformist venue. I've yielded nothing from ScotlandsPeople, but the mystery doesn't end there.
Following her marriage to Ralph A. Hastie, Ann appears on successive census returns until 1881 (she died in 1884). Her place of birth changes as follows:
1851 - pob Edinburgh
1861 - pob Edinburgh
1871 - pob Carnwath, Lanarkshire
1881 - Forth, Lanarkshire (where she was also living at the time).
Ann's first children with Ralph were born in Edinburgh, so I'm leaning towards this being the correct place of birth for her. However, on her death certificate, her parents are recorded as Andrew McKay, coal miner, and Jean Marshall (both deceased). I don't know many coal miners that would have lived in Edinburgh, but I am also struggling to pin down a marriage between Andrew McKay and Jean Marshall. I've tried searching for any potential siblings for Ann, but I'm not even sure where she was on the 1841 before her marriage.
Another complication is that the names passed down through the family, and indeed the spelling of Ann's own surname, alternates between McKay and Mackie. Mackie seems to be the most common way registrars have recorded it, but altogether these obstacles make it difficult for me to see clearly where I might go next to try and pin Ann down.
I hope I have articulated my dilemma clearly and I'd be grateful if anyone has any advice or guidance as to where I might try looking next, or indeed if I have missed someplace obvious. Ann named two of her children Andrew and Jane Marshall Hastie so I believe the parents entered by her husband on her death certificate to be accurate. Jane was first-born so I'm fairly confident she was named after Ann's mother.
This has me flummoxed...I hope I have not flummoxed you in the process ;D
Any help would be warmly welcomed.
Thanks,
Matt.
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What do you know about Ann's and Ralph's levels of literacy? For example when the later children's births were registered, who was responsible for that and did they sign their name or use an X? If one or both were functionally illiterate, the anomalies you list are the result of what someone else thought was the right answer, whether that might be the spelling of Mackay/McKie or her place of birth.
You don't mention if you have the same issues with Ralph's place of birth. For the censuses, it may be relevant to know what type of accommodation they were living in at the time. For example if they were lodgers within a larger household, was the head of that household meticulous in putting down the correct details and was the enumerator equally meticulous when he transferred the details from the household returns to his summary sheets, with the latter being what we have as primary sources today. To take the example of the 1881 census, were there other entries for the same household where the place of birth was Forth, and might Ann's birthplace have become Forth by virtue of some lazy ditto marks?
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I guess some of the information you have came from Family Search, however looking at Scotland's People below might be worth a look.
No birth/baptisms prior to Statutory Registraton in 1855 on https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
No Kirk Session minutes but accounts 1852-1889, these may be worth a look, as would the original census returns.
Possible 1841 for ralph below and if Ann was in Edinburgh she would be about 19 at the time so there are several possibilities.
RALPH HASTIE 1841 census age is rounded down 15 685/3 5/ 1Canongate Midlothian
1851/1861 Family in Biggar, Lanarkshire.
1871 Family in Carnworth, Lanarkshire
1881 Kirkfieldbank, Lesmahagow, Lanarkshire, Scotland
This seems to be the only Valuation Roll
RALPH HASTIE Tenant/Occupier HOUSE KIRKFIELDBANK LANARK
LESMAHAGOW 1885
ANN HASTIE died age 62 (Born 1882) 1884
Lesmahagow, Lanarkshire mmn MARSHALL
RALPH ABERCROMBIE HASTIE died age 70 (Born 1825) 1895
Kirkfieldbank, Lanarkshire mmn LEGGAT
Colin
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Hi there
I dont know if you have seen this but not quite what you wanted, on Findagrave.com (free) there is a lovely picture of the Memorial Stone for Ralph Abercrombie Hastie there is a large inscription on it as well. Alot of other detail as well. (Ralph was son of Archibald Hastie and Marion Leggat) on the details given there. Someone else researching Hastie as well.
I am always drawn to McKay (mine were Irish) various spellings as well so I know about that. Wish you luck another piece to the jigasaw. There are alot of good people on here (rootschat) very experienced with genealogy.
This is the link
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/208883327/ralph-abercrombie-hastie
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Hi,
You seem to have looked in most of the easy places.
Just a couple of things, there were a lot of mines within the boundaries of Edinburgh at the time we are talking about, so not entirely surprising to for them to be in Edinburgh.
You comment that she changed her place of birth on the last two census returns, but Forth is in the parish of Carnwath, so that might be just down to the enumerator.
I presume you have looked at all the Baptisms on SP, the witnesses can be very useful, they certainly helped with my own Lothian mining ancestors.
There are documents on mining, which if you are very lucky might reference them, but it is a long shot. Parliamentary investigations into mining at the like, they took witness statements.
I would always use wildcards when searching m*k* and the like, I have come across some very strange spellings.
If you haven't already DNA may help you through the wall.
Happy Hunting
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'Non-conformist' is not a useful word in the context of Scottish religious denominations. It was coined to apply to people in England who did not conform to the Church of England, so almost everyone in Scotland was Non-conformist.
And if they had been married by a Church of Scotland minister, it is very unlikely to have been in a church: wedding ceremonies were usually held in the bride's home or in the manse.
They may have been married by a minister of one of the many dissenting religious sects or minority denominations, in which case the record may not have survived. Or they may have married by declaration before witnesses, which was perfectly legal but involved no clergy.
So I wouldn't devote too much effort to finding a record of he marriage.
Have you viewed the children's baptism records? If they say the child was 'lawful' it means that the minister believed the parents were married. However the absence of the word 'lawful' must not be taken to indicate that they were not married. The baptism record of an illegitimate child will make it clear.
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Do you get no clue of religious affiliation?
What do you have for marriages of the children of Ralph HASTIE and Ann?....married in what church?
A large family, and several sons.....and father Ralph does not give his name to a son?
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Have you accounted for all of the various surnames given as middle names to the children?
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Hi all,
Thank you for all of your replies overnight. I'm going to answer or expand each of them individually:
AndyJ2022
According to the birth registrations of the ten children, Ralph was literate as his signature appear on certificates (he registered all children) and there is no 'x' on them. I take this to infer that Ralph at the very least was literate, but no trace of scribe for Ann appears unfortunately.
Turning more to Ralph briefly, he was the youngest child of Archibald Hastie (soldier an tailor) and Marion Legget. His rather unusual name comes from Sir Ralph Abercromby (no relation) who served as governor of Trindad and died in 1801 (Archibald had served in the capture of Martinique in 1811 and was likely influenced by Sir Ralph). The name Ralph does not appear in the Hastie family before my Ralph was born, and I also cannot find any baptism for him (he was born c.1825 in Edinburgh). However, further back in time, Archbald and his siblings were all baptised in the Church of Scotland. So for whatever reason, the lack of baptismal records for the Hasties seems to have begun with Archibald and Marion's children, in Edinburgh, in the 1812-1826 period.
I've also taken a quick look at the 1881 census and Ann's birthplace of 'Forth' is written down as is, rather than enumerated by way of a ditto mark.
ColC
Hi Colin. Thanks for the suggestion of the Carnwath account books. I had a look through them last night but cannot find anything pertaining to this family. Many entries appear to be brief and only state basic details, .i.e. "For Mr. Steele" or "Brought forward". Disappointly scant I'm afraid!
I checked the 1841 census for Ralph too; he is living as an apprentice nailmaker with two others in Canongate, Edinburgh. No obvious family ties, and I've researched his siblings and parents extensively. But without a baptism for him either, or his siblings, I suspect the family belonged to a very minor congregation, the name and denomination of which I do not know at present.
Aquitaine
Thank you for this - this has led me to another mystery! The stone is very informative and although no lair records exist, I also believe Ralph to be buried in the same grave. I note too, the spelling of Ann's name as McKay, which is consistent with how it appears on all children's marriage certificate and available birth records too.
What intrigues me though is that Archibald purchased the lair in 1876. None of his children died then, nor anyone I can see in the family. That is something I will have to try and find out, so that is a potential lead - thanks!
David
Thanks for the context around Edinburgh mining. I've always known my Hasties to have lived around the Canongate/Cowgate area of the city so, with it being the old town, I had just written off Ann and Ralph meeting there somehow, especially if she was from Carnwath originally. I guess it is another reminder that in this game ruling things out sometimes isn't helpful. At this point in time, however, nothing ties Ann to Edinburgh except the inference that she had married Ralph there in 1842.
Forfarian
I've spent some time collating what I have to see if any clues are offered. I'll type up a summary of the children and denominations too for clarity and will post again shortly.
Thanks everyone who has replied...I am not ignoring more recent replies...just responding in the next post!
Matt
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Here is a summary of the children of Ralph Abercrombie Hastie and Ann McKay and which denominations they married under:
Jane Marshall Hastie (named after her maternal grandmother it seems).
- Born c.1843 in Edinburgh - no baptism found.
- Married Edward McConville in 1869 at St. Mary's Chapel, Lanark - Roman Catholic.
- Witnesses: Lawrence Cahill, Henry Fitzpatrick and Ann Hastie.
Marion Hastie (named after paternal grandmother).
- Born c.1845 in Edinburgh – no baptism found.
- Married William Mackay (!) in 1868, Forth Lanarkshire – United Presbyterian Church (UPC).
- Witnesses: Andrew McKie and Matthew Gibbie/Gibble.
Here of cousre the witness Andrew McKie is interesting. He could be a relation of the groom however, but the spelling is different.
After Marion’s birth, Ralph and Ann then appear to have moved from Edinburgh to Biggar, Lanarkshire. Ralph was a nailmaker journeyman so a move isn’t a surprise.
Andrew Hastie (named after maternal grandfather).
- Born c.1847 in Biggar, Lanarkshire – no baptism found.
- Died 1870, single.
Archibald Hastie (named after paternal grandfather).
- Born c.1849 in Biggar – no baptism found.
- Married Margaret Russell in 1871, Forth – UPC.
- Witnesses: Andrew McKie and Marion Watson (Andrew McKie is now a lead I think)
Annie ‘Mackie’ Hastie (my ancestor)
- Born c.1852 in Biggar, Lanarkshire – no baptism found
- Married Walter Russell in 1871, Forth – UPC.
- Witnesses: Ralph Hastie and Archibald Hastie
Agnes Hastie (Ralph’s paternal grandmother was named Agnes)
- Born c1854 in Biggar, Lanarkshire – no baptism found.
- Married John Ralton 1874, Forth – UPC.
- Witnesses: Walter Waddell and Robert Brown – both are unknown to me
Margaret Hastie (unknown connection to that name)
- Born 1857 Biggar, BC signed by father Ralph – no baptism found.
- Married John Somerville in 1879 at Kirkfieldbank – UPC.
- Witnesses: William Dawson, Catherine Hastie and Richard Somerville.
Flora McDonald Hastie (unknown connection to the name except for the famous one to Bonnie Prince Charlie).
- Born 1859 in Biggar, BC signed by father Ralph – no baptism found.
- Married James Gray in 1881 at Kirkfieldbank, Lesmahagow - UPC
- Witnesses: John Hastie and Mary Hastie. Only possible clue here is that John was the illegitimate child of Flora’s eldest sister Jane. He was born in 1860 and went to the U.S. where he became a Baptist preacher.
Catherine Hastie (Ralph’s aunt on his paternal side was a Catherine).
- Born 1862 in Biggar, BC signed by father Ralph – no baptism.
- Married Alexander Parkin in 1889 at Kirkfieldbank, Lesmahagow – UPC
- Witnesses: Francis Parkin and Euphemia Stark – no known connection
Mary Hastie
- Born 1864, Biggar, BC signed by father Ralph – no baptism found.
- Married James Tait in 1886 at Bannatyne Street, Lanark – UPC.
- Witnesses: George Reid and Catherine Hastie.
The lack of baptismal records is quite frustrating, but the biggest lead I can see here is that an Andrew McKie was a witness at two Hastie weddings. That’ll be where I head next!
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Name John Hastie
Birth 9 Sep 1860
Biggar, Lanarkshire, Scotland, United Kingdom
Mother's Name Jane Marshall Hastie
(See Family Search)
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Thanks Neale,
John Hastie was indeed Jane Marshall Hastie's son, but he was raised by Ralph and Ann as she was 18 and unmarried when he was born.
She had another son, Andrew Henderson Hastie, born in 1866 but I have traced him.