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Research in Other Countries => Other Countries => Topic started by: Ramalingam on Thursday 14 August 25 11:23 BST (UK)
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I am looking for family lines of Esq. Robert Fischer (1841), s/o George Frederick Fischer II (Zemindar of Salem), who was a Law Barrister, Fundraiser, Entrepreneur and Merchant in Madura City of British Colonial India. A road was named after him as Robert Fischer Road in Present day Madurai City. He was fondly called as "Fischer Durai" by local tamils in late 1800s which shows the respect for him and his family. He lived his entire life for development of Madurai City and its People.
I am also looking for information on whereabouts and howabouts of Sybil (Sybel) Fischer (New Zealand) (W) and Zara Fischer (Madurai, India) (D), Who left India and lived in UK and US, time to time.
Anyone who knows their current descendants or any other Spouses or Children for this Robert Fischer, Kindly let me know.
I am having limited information on them, but cannot have complete information of their life after 1908.
For your reference I have added some trees in the chat:
Robert Fischer:
https://www.familysearch.org/en/tree/pedigree/portrait/G4CB-DY1
or
https://www.familysearch.org/en/tree/pedigree/portrait/L4MT-7F7
Sybel Fischer:
https://www.familysearch.org/en/tree/pedigree/portrait/GJ5M-YQ2
Isabella Maud Drury:
https://www.familysearch.org/en/tree/pedigree/portrait/L4MT-3NR
Zara (Maud) Fischer
https://www.familysearch.org/en/tree/pedigree/portrait/GJ59-451
I have two doubts with the above provided trees:
1. Whether the two Robert Fischer given above are same person or different person?
2. If same person, Did he had two wives or both are two names of a same person?
Is there any other records available in US or UK?
The person of inquiry in New York, US and Woking, UK is Miss. Zara Fischer (Indian), Daughter of Robert Fischer (Indian) and Sybel Fischer (New Zealand). She was 18 as on Jan, 1920, as per fourteenth census of the United States 1920 Population, in NYC. She immigrated from UK into US by 1915, 1919, 1920.
UK Details Available:
First Name: Zara Maud
Last Name: Fischer / Fisher
Born: 1902, Madura, Colonial India
Address: Care of Miss. Maud Fuller, Maybury house, Woking, UK.
Height: 5' 6"
US Details Available:
Place of Abode: Eighth Avenue,
House No.: 954,
No. Of. Dwelling.: 58,
No. Of Family in Order: 344.
No school éducation in US.
We need the détails of their descendants and Whereabouts who live in our times to connect.
Thanks for your support in helping this,
Ram
Moderator comment: edited to remove phone number and e-mail address. RootsChat discourages the posting of such personal information to prevent spamming and other abuse. Please use the personal message system to exchange such information. Thank you.
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Your two FamilySearch trees do not quite match with other sources.
I am laying out the base from BMD information, sources: FreeBMD and GRO Index.
https://www.freebmd.org.uk/
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/login.asp
Checking against the FamilySearch IDs: James Samuel Drury - PQDX-3JX and L4MT-3YN
Marriage:
Drury, James Samuel m Bousfield, Sophia Louisa Marylebone 1a 691 MarQ 1859
PQDX-3JX
Births:
Drury, Mary Frances mmn BoNsfield Kensington 1a 48 DecQ 1859
PQD6-581
Drury, James Henry mmn Bousfield Kensington 1a 51 JunQ 1861
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Drury, Isabella Maud mmn Bousfield Kensington 1a 51 SepQ 1862
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Drury, Emily Henrietta mmn Bousfield Kensington 1a 47 JunQ 1864
L4MT-3L3
Death:
Drury, James Samuel 43 Kensington 1a 43 DecQ 1865
- hence last child was b. 1864. N.B. death is not 1932.
Marriage:
Fischer, Robert m Drury, Isabella Maud Kensington 1a 236 JunQ 1882
L4MT-7F7 L4MT-3NR dau. of James Samuel L4MT-3YN and Sophia Louisa L4MT-3YR
There was no Sybel (etc) in the family of James Samuel Drury; was she the wife of James Henry Drury?
No marriage found in England and Wales - possibly abroad.
Does the death date of 1932 relate to James Henry rather than to his father James Samuel? Not found in E&W except possibly:
Drury, James 71 Pocklington 9d 80 DecQ 1931
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Thanks for your insights Molly, Sharing some facts relating to your pointers:
I shall provide you the marriage details of both the Sybel and Isabelle that is perturbing me.
Robert Fischer (1) Sept qtr 1884 Wandsworth RD Ref 1d 1044
Other names on the same page:
Caroline Amelia Place, Frederick Charles Tatham, Harriett Fells, Robert Fischer, Sybil Blanche C Stewart
Robert Fischer (2) registered June qtr 1882 Kensington RD
Ref 1a p 236
Names with the same reference : Henry Crewe, Isabella Maud Drury, Marcella Archer, Robert Fischer
P.S:
1. I have a doubt that Sybil changed her Surname to 'FISCHER'
2.I also have a doubt that these names could have anglicized by England conventions.
Zara - Sarah; Sybil - Isabelle; Fischer - Fisher; and so on.
Pain part of the conversation is when brides change their Family Names it leads to multiple persons on record.
All I know is that there are three James Samuel Drury - I, II, and III all from New Zealand Origin. As per Indian Records and Immigrant Records Sybil Fischer is also from New Zealand.
So Either we are dealing with same person with multiple names (SF and IMD) or two couple with rare coincidence (RF-SF and/or RF-IMD). As per Indian Courts Record, After Robert Fischer's death his will provided his assets to his sister's son Robert Foulkes and Wife Sybil Fischer. I must be missing some important event of history that can answer this puzzle.
Citation: https://indiankanoon.org/doc/1000226/
" Under the said will, Fischer bequeathed a life interest in certain properties to his wife Sybil Fisher and the remainder over to Robert Foulkes, one of the executors under the will."
Thanks for your time and patience.
Ram
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Just checked your Isabella Maud tree in FamilySearch which seems to be correct. Her marriage details are given as identical with those of Sybil Fischer, who is not in FreeBMD, so unlikely to be correct.
Almost all the other events were registered in Kensington, so the Wandsworth one appears out of place. There seems to be some confusion with Sybil Blanche C Stewart whose marriage to a Robert Fischer was actually two years later.
Maybe Sybil was a second wife. No record of her marriage in 1882, nor death of either wife in E&W that I can see.
I agree with you about name variants. There is also a spelling Sibyl.
Added: To be certain you need to get both marriage certificates (or see both register images) and check the details of the fathers of both Robert Fischers, his batchelor/widower status and his signature.
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Have checked indexes in:
FindMyPast: - none found
Ancestry: - Robert Fischer appears in two apparently different member trees - tho' they may overlap. The second one is interesting because it states: "Birth 1841 India"
Robert Fischer
Barnfather/Bousfield Family Tree
Spouse Isabella Maud Drury
Westminster, London, England Church of England Marriages...
Robert Fischer
Mander Baronets Family Tree
Birth 1841 India
Spouse Sybil Blanche Colebrooke Stewart
London, England, Church of England Marriages and Banns, 1754-1940
Perhaps check whether these are the same or different people.
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parish marriage 4 Sept 1884 parish church of Clapham by licence
Robert Fischer 43 widower Barrister at Law All Saints Paddington father George Frederick Fischer merchant
Sybil Blanche Colebrooke Stewart 22 spinster Saint John Clapham father Edward Croker Stewart major (retired)
witnesses William Bowser? and Mary Croker Stewart
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parish marriage 28 June 1882 parish church of Paddington
Robert Fischer full bachelor Barrister at Law St Michael Paddington father George Frederick Fischer Zemindar of Salem
Isabella Maud Drury full spinster St John Paddington father James Drury MD
witnesses Mary Francis Denby & Geo. B R Bousfield
From Pall Mall Budget 7 July 1882 - At St. John's, Southwick Crescent, Mr Robert Fischer to Isabella M., daughter of the J.S. Drury, MD Lond. F.R.C.S. of Radnor Place, Hyde Park, June 28th.
Announcement of second marriage mentions that Sybil was the youngest daughter of Major E Croker Stewart and granddaughter of the late general J. Hunter Littler G.C.B.
Burial Salem, St Andrew's, Madras
20 Jan 1884 Isabella Maude Fischer 21 wife of Robert Fischer, Esq., Barrister at Law, Madura, death previous day from phthisis.
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Just been catching up on the other old thread about this family.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=532974.0
Significant points are:
#21 Scott seems to have been confused that the son of Dr. James Samuel Drury was also named James Samuel, when in fact he was James Henry.
#14 and #27 both say Isabella died 1884 in India, so Robert Fischer does appear to have re-married to Sybil B. C. Stewart, as confirmed by Osprey here.
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from probate entry, Sybil Blanche Colebrooke Stewart Fisher otherwise Sybil Blanche of Cranleigh Court Private Hotel Byron Road Worthing, widow, died 13 Dec 1938 at Hopedene Nursing Home Wordsworth Road Worthing, probate 2 March 1939 to Frederick Berry grain broker & Ernest Chetter chartered accountant.
Death reg Sybil B Fisher 75 dec qtr 1938 Worthing vol 2B pg 471
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Thank You very much for the Collective Genius in bringing the most crucial aspects of Mr. and Mrs. Fischer. Your efforts are hugely respected and noted for the literature support for the family.
I have 5 more Mysteries around their life waiting to be unveiled kindly share your same enthusiasm with my research:
Mystery-1: Was there any conflict between Mr. Fischer and Queen?
I came across few case from Indian Records which clearly depicts the friction of relations with the Queen and Mr.Fischer and also Queen is closely related to Mr. James Samuel Drury, I would like to know the politics of those days that happened with these two. He was also seen to have multiple cases and allegations for standing with the People of Madurai against the Secretary of State.
Ref: Robert Fischer And Ors. vs The Secretary Of State For India In ... on 23 November, 1908 https://indiankanoon.org/doc/1600887/
Ref: Queen Empress vs R. Fischer on 3 March, 1891 https://indiankanoon.org/doc/881034/
Mystery-2: Was there any threats to his life and so he has to fake his own death?
Church records says he was dead just a month after his famous case with one landlord/businessman by 1908.
Still I find him in a Ship Journey with Sybil Fischer in 1929 from UK to US.
Why should this man fake his death and leave the business, assets and family ownership to his beloved wife?
Ref: Burial Records at St. Mathias, Madura, 1908 (In Tree)
Ref: US Immigration Records in Sep, 12, 1929, Ship S.S. Samaria, from Liver Pool to New York.
Mystery-3: What were his activities (Political, Financial, Social) from 1908 - 1929 (Last Active)? When and Where is his real death US / UK/ IN?
If he was in exile what were his ambitions and motivations during the tenure. I see an active American Madura Mission - Report from 1900 to 1930 for development and restructuring of Madurai City since 1834. I am sure Fischer was subtly involved in it, taking his past interests in Practicing Law into account.
Ref: American Madura Mission - Reports from 1900 to 1930 (PDFs)
Mystery-4: Is Sybel related to Isabelle somehow? Why should she take good care of Zara Maud Fischer after demised of Mrs.Fischer in 1884. If Zara was born in 1902 how she took the family Name 'Maud" ? Were there any other Children for Mr. Fischer? Why the little Zara and Sybil have to travel between US and UK time on time? Was there a Studies or Marriage Proposal going on?
If yes was that groom within Fischer or Sybel or Isabelle or Fuller Family? And this question can lead to finiding the present lineage of Zara Fischer.
Ref: All Immigration records To and From : India, UK, US I got Few References but mostly missing pieces.
Mystery-5:How and Where was his Schooling, Law Education and Was he attached to any Family Members Post WW1? If So are there any descendants connected to them?
This details are important because the Robert Fischer seems to have a completely different family tree from Sybil's and Isabelle's Tree. What was his correct Family and Professional Background.
PS: Robert Fischer made his Bachelor Barrister at Law School of St Michael, Paddington, UK. NO References I have got there.
Please feel free to connect with me for any records or new informations you have. Due to Size Limitation I cannot put all of those work in the single thread.
I am sure Mr and Mrs. Fischer deserves the recognition for their incredible life they have lived. I hae a duty to share the same with their today Family. These Information would be carefully documented in a Book with the Madurai City for our future.
Thanks,
Ramalingam KB
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Mystery-2: Was there any threats to his life and so he has to fake his own death?
Church records says he was dead just a month after his famous case with one landlord/businessman by 1908.
Still I find him in a Ship Journey with Sybil Fischer in 1929 from UK to US.
Why should this man fake his death and leave the business, assets and family ownership to his beloved wife?
Ref: Burial Records at St. Mathias, Madura, 1908 (In Tree)
Ref: US Immigration Records in Sep, 12, 1929, Ship S.S. Samaria, from Liver Pool to New York.
I think you are seeing a mystery where there is none.
The couple who travelled to New York in 1929 are NOT Robert, barrister at law and his wife Sibyl. The ages for the couple are stated to be 75 and 72, giving birth years of 1854 and 1857. Checking back on other census, this appears to be Robert Fisher and his wife Sybil nee Hartley. They said they had previously been living in Manningham, Bradford in Yorkshire.
While Fischer may have been mistranscribed as Fisher on some records, it is important to consider that sometimes Fisher might be the correct name. Sybil/Sibyl was not that uncommon a personal name in Victorian times. I am not aware that it might be considered a replacement for Isabelle. The two names have different origins.
Nell
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Mystery-1: Was there any conflict between Mr. Fischer and Queen?
I came across few case from Indian Records which clearly depicts the friction of relations with the Queen and Mr.Fischer and also Queen is closely related to Mr. James Samuel Drury, I would like to know the politics of those days that happened with these two. He was also seen to have multiple cases and allegations for standing with the People of Madurai against the Secretary of State.
Ref: Robert Fischer And Ors. vs The Secretary Of State For India In ... on 23 November, 1908 https://indiankanoon.org/doc/1600887/
Ref: Queen Empress vs R. Fischer on 3 March, 1891 https://indiankanoon.org/doc/881034/
Robert Fischer's activities resulted in a number of civil court cases. In the second instance that you quote, it was because he had performed a marriage ceremony in his capacity as a Lay Trustee of the church when the incumbent and registrar were both absent. The case was brought on behalf of the state (and this is why it appears as 'Queen Empress v R Fischer'). At that time the head of state was Queen Victoria. All cases brought by the state would have been listed at that time as 'Queen Empress' v ......
There are newspaper reports of cases involving land disputes. There was no personal involvement of the Queen.
Regarding Maude Fuller, she was the headmistress/principal of a school for girls in Woking, situated at Maybury House. She had no other relationship with the Fischer family.
Sybil and Zara are in England in 1921.
Nell
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Thanks Nell, Some clouds have been cleared on my theory M-1 (Planned Exile) and M-2 (Queen's Attrition). I was seeking for factual records that can give answer to the Question, Who was taking care of Mother and Daughter in the absence of Mr. Fischer hence come up with these probable theories with available records. It would be a genius idea to close these open knots of these two Mysteries.
Previously, I have had the same rare speculation that there would be a different Robert Fischer and Sybil Fischer, since church records cannot be falsified. However to support these narratives, have we got any B/M/D details of Maud Fuller, Robert Fischer (75) (New), Sybil [nee Hartley] Fischer (72)?
I have seen the Age of Sybil [Blanche Colebrooke Stewart] Fischer inconsistent in most Shipping records which do not match the Expected Birth date 1862.
Is there a possibility for Maud Fuller to be Isabelle's Sister, Mary Maud Fuller Drury (Wife of Herbert Henry Fuller)? Why would Zara carry the family Name "Maud" in some records since Isabelle Maud Fischer was First Wife and Sybil Fischer was Second Wife of Robert Fischer.
Nell, also can you get some family lineage after they (Sybil and Zara) are in England in 1921 or later.
Thanks for your information and time. :)
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likely marriage
Zara M H Fisher sept qtr 1922 St Martin vol 1a pg 1350 to Frederick Berry - same name as on Sybil's probate. Zara also indexed with last name Calcutt.
From electoral registers, Frederick & Zara lived in a house called Madura in Lower Shiplake, Oxfordshire. Some entries give her as Zara Maud Howard Berry.
I think Frederick died in 1963 aged 85. Probate entry gives his address as Phyllis Court Club, Henley on Thames and he died 3 March 1963 at 7 St Andrews Rd Henley. Probate to Victor Fredrick Berry & Ernest Chetter.
Victor was the son of Frederick & Zara. Birth reg june qtr 1924 Henley mother's maiden name Calcutt-Fisher.
Victor married in 1949 and died 22 Oct 1975 and left a will. Several likely children to the marriage who I will not mention as they are likely to be still alive.
Zara isn't in the same household as Frederick on the 1939 register I haven't spotted her after that as yet.
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Reply #11
Sybil and Zara are in England in 1921
You can view FindMyPast's index to the 1921 census free.
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/search-world-records/1921-census-of-england-and-wales
AMENDED Sybil seems to have quietly lost 10 years of her age.*
The index gives year of birth 1871 (1921 minus age in the census) and her birthplace as New Zealand. Zara born 1901 Madras, India.
They were both in Uppingham, Rutland and spelled "Fisher". Perhaps the 1st World War caused them to drop the German spelling. There were incidents of British citizens with German names being attacked although their families had lived here for many years.
* I have seen this before on shipping lists where two sisters who were in show business and their mother reduced their ages on a working visit to S. Africa. Sybil's age at death registration (75) seems about right.
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Just searched for Zara using Calcutt last name and found a baptism in Madura
Born 17 Oct 1901, baptised 24 Nov 1901 Zara Maud Howard daughter of Henry Frederick & Caroline Calcutt, father engineer at cotton mills. So looks like she may have been adopted.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:66FT-KMDB?lang=en
brother James born 1900
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGCM-JYL?lang=en
father a widower on 1911 census.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7L7-4W4?lang=en
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I am unclear why you think that there must be some relationship between Maud Fuller and Isabelle Drury. Maud is not a ‘family’ name or surname. It is a given name/first name that was quite common in Victorian times. A quick and very random look at the GRO indexes on FreeBMD (https://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl) has nearly 100 births registered in one quarter of 1861 where the child was named Maud.
Maud Fuller was the head mistress of a school so presumably Zara was sent there to be educated, along with a number of other girls. She was unmarried. Her full name according to the GRO index was Frances Maud Mary Fuller. Her parents appear to be Sidney Fuller and Kate Tranter who married in 1865. He was employed on the railway. Frances Maud Fuller can be found with her family in 1881, 1891 census. By 1911 she was the principal of the school. Frances Maud Fuller died in 1955, unmarried. (National Probate Calendar – free to search).
Robert Fisher who went to USA in 1929 was born in 1854 in Yorkshire (from GRO index). He married Sybil Hartley in June qtr 1877 in Bradford (Vol 9b p 233 – GRO index, free to search at FreeBMD). His wife Sybil was also born in Yorkshire. They can be found together in 1881 in Manningham Yorkshire (matches with the place of residence given in 1929). Later that same year, they migrated to USA and in 1890 were living in California in 1920. They were naturalized citizens and had received US citizenship in 1885. The 1929 arrival record also gives their US residence as California and that they became US citizens in 1885. They are definitely NOT the same couple and should be ignored. Many census records can be accessed free via FamilySearch.
Sybil Fischer (widow of Robert Fischer who died in India in 1908 and was buried there) left a considerable sum of money. She was not living in penury. She is recorded as leaving Britain in 1909 with a child and a governess (newspaper report). She could still afford to travel.
I did wonder if Zara might have been adopted since there was a considerable period of time between Robert & Sybil's marriage and her apparent birth date.
Nell
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With regard to Robert's legal education and career:
From listings in Thackers Indian Directory in 1885 and 1886, he did his legal training at both Lincoln's Inn and Middle Temple in London. You can find his name in the admissions registers from links on their websites:
Lincoln's Inn
https://www.lincolnsinn.org.uk/library-archives/researching-past-members/
(HathiTrust, Internet Archive and FamilySearch also have copes if the printed admissions registers)
Middle Temple
https://www.middletemple.org.uk/archive/archive-information-access/sources-resources/digitised-records/registers-admissions
(also available on FamilySearch)
In 1885 he was attached to chambers at 2nd Line Beach. In 1886 he was listed at Terumal Naik's Palace, Madura He had been called to the bar in 1872.
Robert had some dealings with the American Madura Mission when he offered some land to it for a new building. See the report here:
https://archive.org/details/seventyfiveyears00chan/mode/2up
page 329
He also donated money to them to help build new primary schools.
I think that all your 'mysteries' have now been answered.
1 No connection between Fischer and Queen except that he was an advocate in the Madras legal department. The state brought a case against him for illegally carrying out a marriage service.
2 He did not fake his death, he was buried in 1908 in India.
3 Since he died in 1908, there were no further activities after this date. The pair who travelled to USA in 1929 are not relevant.
4 Robert's first wife was not related to his second wife.
5 see above summary
Nell
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Isabella Maud Drury added a year when she was married:
Reply #1 Birth registered Sep quarter 1862
(but birth may have occurred just before the registration quarter commenced)
Reply #6 Marriage 28 June 1882, Age: "Full" - she may have just turned 20, but not 21.
Her age at death is correct, 21.
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I think that Frederick and Zara separated, perhaps by 1939.
Zara may be in Kent in 1939 and possibly lived with another man for over 30 years before marrying him in 1975 in Cornwall as Zara M H Berry. If this is correct, she died the following year (1976).
Nell
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date of birth given on death reg for Zara Maud H Burroughes is given as 17 Oct 1902. She may have 'lost' a year as George was younger than her. He died in 1992 date of birth given as 24 May 1910.
Would be interesting to see what details for father are given on Zara's marriage certificate - sept qtr 1922 St Martin vol 1a pg 1350.
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Thank You, to Collective Genius of everyone !!
I have got most of my research queries Sorted.
Yet more open knots came in to the Puzzle.
This is a great progress to my research !!
That marks no biological heir for Robert Fischer, so far !!
I shall keep posted on any further research queries.
Sincerely,
Ram
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I would like to add all your profiles for contributors, if interested, kindly send me a DM with personal message. Thanks Again and You are all Awesome. -Ramalingam KB
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Hi RootsChat Family,
Does anyone have sources mentioning the census and probate records of Victor and Zara?
Especially after her second Marriage?
Where where they staying after 1939?
Does anyone have links to share on familysearch.org about the First Husband Berry's Family and Second Husband Burroughes.
I was also wondering why Sybil put Berry's name into the probate instead of Zara?
These questions are twisting my heads!!!
I am writing a book on life of Mr.Robert Fischer and his contributions to Madurai City, and any of his family lineages living today, as a honor, I will provide a copy of book to you and mention you as well. Kindly connect with me in private chat for the same intended purpose.
Thanks again for your undivided Support, any additional information would be duly documented in my pages.
Ram