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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Royfamily on Thursday 14 August 25 10:06 BST (UK)
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Hi all
Is it possible to trace Edward Egan from London back to Limerick.
on the 1891 and 1901 census he is living at 23 Pancras street St Pancras with his wife
Margaret, mother in law Margaret both born in Limerick and his children, minus son John.
would be great if someone could help fill the blank of births and time in Limerick.
many thanks.
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The 1891 has the daughter Margaret age 16 born St Pancras
What was Edwards wifes maiden surname :-\
You mention a son John, where and when was he born
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Any idea when or where he married?
Who was their eldest child?
There’s a Margaret born with mothers name Welsh but would need to cross check other births as well.
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John Egan born 1867 st pancras, mother Margaret Egan maiden name not known by me.
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This John :-\. I can't see another that would fit
1871
RG10/210 f107 page 27. Midford Road
Timothy Egan 30 occ Labourer bn Ireland
Margaret Egan 30 bn Ireland
John Egan 3 bn Pancras, Middlesex, England
Michael Egan 2 months bn Pancras, Middlesex, England.,
.....
1881 Cleveland St, Pancras for this family also has
EGAN, BRIDGET mmn WELSH
GRO Reference: 1874 S Quarter in PANCRAS Volume 01B Page 40
EGAN, MARGARET mmn WELSH
GRO Reference: 1875 D Quarter in PANCRAS Volume 01B Page 38
Mentioned by Milliepede earlier
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John and Margaret Mary Egan father definatley Edward not Timothy,it's their mother Margaret and her mother Margaret and Edward their fathers birth and places in Limerick Ireland that I need help with.thanks
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Where do you have John Egan bn c1867 on the census with his parents
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Civil registration of births, deaths and Catholic marriages began in Ireland in 1864 (from 1845 for non-Catholic marriages) so you'd neem a more exact location tan 'Limerick' to start searching church records in Ireland.
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Can you please post refs for the 1901
23 Pancras street is “workshops only” on the image I am looking at.
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John born 1872 died 1922 married Alice foreman, tier first child born c 1898,
I cant control that the 1891 census says Egans living 23 Pancras street ,regardless of its use.
Only really looking for pre England ad St Pancras for Edward, Margaret his wife and Margaret her mother if this is not possible,I appreciate that is the case thank you
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If you have a sub to Ancestry you will find John's enlistment documents there. He first enlisted at Cardiff in 1889 and his next of kin was his father Timothy EGAN of 10 York Buildings, Euston Road, London. He served at home, as well as India and South Africa. Later added is his wife Alice FOREMAN of St Pancras who he married on 7 Apr 1897. He again enlisted in 1914 and there are further details of his wife and children.
What did he state for father's name and occupation when he married?
I wonder if John's parents married in London?
Marriages Sep 1866
BUTLER Amina A
EGAN Timothy
MANNIX Margaret
McDonagh John
Pancras 1b 329
You need to get the correct names before you can try to search in Ireland. Were they Catholic?
Debra :)
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hi Debra
Im not on any ancestry sites had bad experience ,my Alice Foreman was born 1875 south London her brother Henry born 1873 married Margaret Mary Egan Johns sister, only going by name for Edward Egan on what was put on census for 23 Pancras street.
family catholic.
I appreciate you giving your time to help can't fathom why the name Timothy comes up I will try to find Johns army papers, thanks.
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You need to get both John and Margaret Mary's marriage certs to see what they say about their father.
.....on the 1891 and 1901 census he is living at 23 Pancras street St Pancras with his wife
Margaret, mother in law Margaret both born in Limerick....
You are not reading the census correctly. The relationship is to the head of the household, so Margaret is 'wife', Margaret Jnr is 'daughter', and Margaret aged 80 is dittoed as EGAN and is 'Mother', not mother-in-law. She is Timothy/Edward's mother.
Debra :)
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These are the two pages that mention family. Click on each of them twice to get the largest size.
https://postimg.cc/gallery/drty2GH
Debra :)
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Possible baptism of Timothy, father Edward.
SS
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6BKQ-X1WL?lang=en
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hi againDebra
Margaret Mary was 16yo on the 1891 census,Iagree Margaret 80 must be mother to Edward,
Alice and johns kids are
Alice 1898
Margaret primrose 1899
John 1904
Edward 1907
Alice may 1906
Michael 1911
William 1913
florence 1901
eileen 1920
nellie 1915
Patrick 1912
irene patricia 1922
John 1911
don't know if they match johns army info can't really make out kids info.
funny if they match there is no Timothy which you would expect if Johns dads name was Timothy,
thanks once again Roy
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I can't see these on your list
EGAN, KATHLEEN VIOLET FOREMAN
GRO Reference: 1905 M Quarter in SOUTHWARK Volume 01D Page 83
EGAN, OLIVE KATHLEEN FOREMAN
GRO Reference: 1909 D Quarter in SOUTHWARK Volume 01D Page 47
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The children mentioned on the army records are
Margaret Primrose (1899)
Alice Mary (1906)
Edward Henry (1907)
Michael (1911)
John (1911)
William (1913)
If Timothy changed his name to Edward how likely is it that the children were aware :-\.
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Just posting the 1881 for Timothy & Margaret Egan
RG11 / Piece 187. / Folio 70 / Page 25
136, Cleveland Street, St Pancras
Timothy Egan 39 occ (bricklayers) labourer bn Limerick, Ireland
Margaret Egan 39 bn Limerick, Ireland
John Egan Son 14
Michael Egan Son 10
Timothy Egan Son 8
Margaret Egan Dtr 6
Bridget Egan Dtr 6
Mary Egan Dtr 3
Children all born St Pancras
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info only
SS
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That is interesting, the plot thickens ;D
There is definitely a need for the purchase of the marriage certificates mentioned by Debra
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Possible baptism of Timothy, father Edward.
SS
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6BKQ-X1WL?lang=en
Here is the parish record - does not give Margaret’s surname though - unless she was also Egan as some mothers’ names are given.
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634978?locale=en#page/11/mode/1up
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on the 1891 and 1901 census he is living at 23 Pancras street St Pancras with his wife
Margaret, mother in law Margaret both born in Limerick and his children, minus son John.
1891 census at 23 Pancras street Edward Egan and the 3 Margarets already mentioned
1901 - As already mentioned there are no residents at 23 Pancras Street, just workshops
Do you have his name as Edward anywhere else other than the 1891 census :-\
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Deleted - wrong person see next post
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Rosie, that is the possible baptism of Timothy/Edward in 1845.
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Oops, Sorry I was getting confused I will delete it ;D
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I wonder where Timothy is after the death of Margaret
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I wonder if John's parents married in London?
Marriages Sep 1866
BUTLER Amina A
EGAN Timothy
MANNIX Margaret
McDonagh John
Pancras 1b 329
You need to get the correct names before you can try to search in Ireland. Were they Catholic?
Debra :)
1861 100 /33/64
3 Midford Place St Pancras (several different families living at number 3)
Margaret Mannix 21 yrs b Ireland with mother Catherine and siblings.
*transcribed as Manner but looks like Mannix/Mannex
There is a sibling Timothy, 22 yrs and a death in 1866 for Timothy Mannix, 27 yrs.
In 1871, it looks as though mother Catherine and daughter Catherine still at number 3.
**number 4 Midford Place (again lots of familes)
1871 210/107/ 27
Timothy Egan 30yrs
Margaret 30yrs
John 3 yrs
Michael 2 months
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hi all, wow im blown away by the help,
Edward/Timothy was my gg grandfather but there is no family history written or spoken,
I still can't understand how 23 pancras street St Pancras was put down as home address, if it was work shops.Alice foreman was my great aunt and followed her brother into marrying an Egan.
interesting info on John joining a welsh regiment.
just wish Knew why and when Timothy become Edward.
once again many thanks
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FindMyPast have this address for 1871 census.
Timothy Egan in 1871
1871 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Timothy Egan in 1871
1871 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Midford Place, Pancras, St Pancras, London & Middlesex, England Pancras, St Pancras, London & Middlesex, England
Makes this birth very interesting.
SS
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I must stop doing this.
1881 census 7, Southampton Road, St Pancras, London & Middlesex, England
Henry Davd Welch Head Married Male 20 1861 Dairyman Paddington, Middlesex, England
Julia Welch Wife Married Female 29 1852 - Devon, England
Harry Welch Son Single Male 2 1879 - Notting Hill, Middlesex, England
Harriett Louisa Welch Daughter Single Female 0 1881 - St Pancras, Middlesex, England
SS
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You are right it is Midford Place not Melford Place - I will correct my post.
It looks a very crowded area.
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Re that Patrick Egan/Julia Welch birth
1871 210 /106/26
4 Midford Place
John Egan 60 yrs
Margaret 58 yrs
Patt Egan 19 yrs Son
All born Limerick
Patrick Egan and Julia Welsh are on the same page for a marriage in 1873 , Westminster
SS - you are quoting two different addresses - Southampton Place and Southampton Court
Added
There are deaths for Julia and Jeremiah Egan in 1879.
There may be a connection for John Egan and Timothy/Edward but this information not yet helping.
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Have births been found for John, 1867 and Michael 1871?
Maybe there were two Margarets - the older boys from Margaret Mannix (although not found any births yet) and the younger ones with mother Margaret Welch/Welsh?
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John born 1867 died 1922 married Alice foreman, tier first child born c 1898,
I cant control that the 1891 census says Egans living 23 Pancras street ,regardless of its use.
Only really looking for pre England ad St Pancras for Edward, Margaret his wife and Margaret her mother if this is not possible,I appreciate that is the case thank you
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hi all, wow im blown away by the help,
Edward/Timothy was my gg grandfather but there is no family history written or spoken,
I still can't understand how 23 pancras street St Pancras was put down as home address, if it was work shops.Alice foreman was my great aunt and followed her brother into marrying an Egan.
interesting info on John joining a welsh regiment.
just wish Knew why and when Timothy become Edward.
once again many thanks
When was 23 Pancras Street ‘put down as home address’.
As has been posted in 1891 119/150
Edward and Margaret Egan are living at 23 Pancras Street
In 1901 137 /19/29
There are occupants at 17 Pancras Street
19, 21, 23 Pancras Street are bracketed together as Workshops only
Then 25 Pancras Street is occupied.
As you point out, there is no John with the family in 1891.
Do you have him elsewhere? (Apologies if this has been posted).
Do you have Edward/Timothy in 1901?
Added
Dundee posted earlier that John joined up in 1889 - sorry
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From workhouse admissions on ancestry
Pancras Guardians
Register of Orders of Admissions to Highgate Infirmary
25 Sep 1891
Margt. Eden Egan, age 50
Address 23 Pancras St
Disease - Ulcerated leg
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I think I should have typed Egan there!
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re John and Alice Egan missing in 1901 they are at 15 Lower Kennington lane Lambeth.with 2 daughters,
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John born 1867 died 1922 married Alice foreman, tier first child born c 1898,
I cant control that the 1891 census says Egans living 23 Pancras street ,regardless of its use.
Only really looking for pre England ad St Pancras for Edward, Margaret his wife and Margaret her mother if this is not possible,I appreciate that is the case thank you
Margaret is listed as mother, not mother in law in 1891.
I asked earlier - do you have John and Michael’s birth records? Then you would know Margaret, the wife’s name.
You can’t look for ‘pre England information ‘ unless you have the English records with names.
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John born 1867 died 1922 married Alice foreman, tier first child born c 1898,
I cant control that the 1891 census says Egans living 23 Pancras street ,regardless of its use.
Only really looking for pre England ad St Pancras for Edward, Margaret his wife and Margaret her mother if this is not possible,I appreciate that is the case thank you
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Please can anyone help on different names of mmm welch/Welsh and mannix,and if the Edward Egan of 23 pancras street and Timothy Egan are one and the same ,or is it a coincident that they have the same birth dates and same wifes name Margaret,having re-read posting I cannot work out who's who on posted certs,thanks
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I probably won’t remember all that has been found but working back from the military record for your John:
11th July 1889
John Egan, born Pancras gives his age as 20 years, 2 months.
This would give his birth year as 1869.
The same record gives father as Timothy Egan, 10 York Buildings, Euston Road and also then mentions wife Alice and Margaret Primrose.
1914 his age is 44 yrs.
I have not found his birth - have you? We have b 1867, I think but these records are more 1869.
1911 census - 45 yrs (abt 1866)
1901 - 33 yrs (abt 1868)
1891 - army?
1881 - 14 yrs abt 1867 with Timothy and Margaret at Cleveland Street
1871 - 3 yrs abt 1868 with parents and brother Michael
** do you have Michael’s birth?
If those births were found, you would have the mother’s name.
If you purchased the marriage for Timothy and Margaret Mannix, you could check the details there.
Similarly, do you have the marriage of John and Alice?
I have it gone back through the thread but I know there is more detail.
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Re Edward/Timothy
TIMOTHY is named as John's father on the military record
We don't know who John said was his father on the marriage record because you haven't told us.
We don't have John on a census with an Edward
We DO have a John the right age on 2 censuses with a father TIMOTHY
The census of 1891 at 23 Pancras Road has Edward and wife Margaret
But when Margaret died - thank you S.S. for posting that image - she is the wife of TIMOTHY and he is the informant. and they are of 23 Pancras Road.
Is there any other occurrence of the name as Edward? If not, it seems to me clear that the 1891 census naming him Edward is the aberration.
thoughts - IF (and it might not be) the baptism in Ireland posted much earlier in the thread is correct. That Timothy's father is Edward. since his mother is with him in 1891 it is possible there was some confusion with the census taking and the wrong name was put down. OR, it is not at all unknown for sons to take on their father's names after the death of the father.
I favour theory 1.
There are a number of quetions in the thread that have not been answered - are you any closer to being able to do that?
Redboxed - but slightly different take to Heywood, so posting
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Electoral registers give:
Edward Egan
23 Pancras Street - 1893 - 1897
54 Whitfield Street 1898 - 1901 if it is the same person.
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As you know, there was a brother to John called Michael.
I can’t see his birth either.
However, re Edward at Whitfield Street.
There is a record - Habitual Criminals and Police Gazette
1897
Michael Egan - birth 1873, London with several convictions
Intended address 54 Whitfield Street. He is a Painter.
Possible death 1900, Pancras
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Just posting the 1881 for Timothy & Margaret Egan
136, Cleveland Street, St Pancras
Timothy Egan Son 8
Did Timothy junior also become Edward?
Death, Dec 1895 Pancras 1b 23
Egan, Edward
Age 22
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Morning Advertiser, 1 April 1891
Edward Egan, 18, labourer, Pancras-street, Euston-road
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Michael Egan the painter also has a conviction as George Ellis. :'(
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St Pancras workhouse religious creed register
Admitted 25 June 1895
Edward Egan
Born 1872
Admitted from 23 Pancras Street
Creed RC
Labourer
To Highgate
Discharged 25.6.95
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1557/images/31436_190204-01114
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October 1895 rate book showing Edward Egan at 23 Pancras Street
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-V385-W9VV-J
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We really need to know what address John gave at his marriage in 1897.
In 1901 there are 7 family groups listed at 54 Whitfield Rd.
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I have, yet again, tried to find births for the two children in 1871 - John and Michael with no success.
I have also just looked through Catholic records - Westminster diocese - for any signs of the children's’ baptisms or the marriage of Timothy and Margaret Mannix but not seen anything.
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What was decided about Patrick & Julia?
Parents of Bridget. Cert posted earlier by SS
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Re that Patrick Egan/Julia Welch birth
1871 210 /106/26
4 Midford Place
John Egan 60 yrs
Margaret 58 yrs
Patt Egan 19 yrs Son
All born Limerick
Patrick Egan and Julia Welsh are on the same page for a marriage in 1873 , Westminster
SS - you are quoting two different addresses - Southampton Place and Southampton Court
Added
There are deaths for Julia and Jeremiah Egan in 1879.
There may be a connection for John Egan and Timothy/Edward but this information not yet helping.
There is only one birth for Bridget Egan that I can see and that is the one posted with mother Welsh.
Maybe Timothy/Edward and Margaret did not register their children?
Maybe there is a connection to the other Egan family in Midford Place.
We are back to information on certificates.
Marriage of Timothy to Margaret Mannix - name of his father etc
Marriage of Patrick to Julia Welsh - name of his father etc.
Children in 1881 with mmn Welsh
Bridget
Margaret
Mary
I can’t see a birth for Timothy abt 1873 - nor the older boys as previously mentioned.
Julia Welsh Egan died - maybe the children were raised by Timothy?
Again, certificates perhaps.
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Frustrated, so bought
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You are very kind - as is SS.
So Mary’s birth matches that of Bridget’s and the address matches Jeremiah’s birth who died along with mother Julia.
Added
7 Southampton Court is blank in 1881
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It’s all very interesting and confusing.
Not much help to Royfamily in sorting Timothy/Edward either.
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EGAN, MARGARET mmn WELSH
GRO Reference: 1875 D Quarter in PANCRAS Volume 01B Page 38
Mentioned by Milliepede earlier
She could have died by 1881 census :-\
Dec 1880 Pancras 1b 29
Egan, Margaret
Age 5
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Just posting the 1881 for Timothy & Margaret Egan
Margaret Egan Dtr 6
Bridget Egan Dtr 6
Mary Egan Dtr 3
Margaret and Bridget same age!
Julia Welsh Egan died - maybe the children were raised by Timothy?
So it's possible that Bridget and Mary were children of Patrick and Julia
Maybe
Death (probably in May)
June 1881 Pancras 1b 25
Egan, Mary
Age 3
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With reference to your last two posts, Jon
This is where we began
1891 119 /150
23 Pancras Street
Edward Egan 49yrs Head Labourer Bricklayers b Limerick
Margaret 49 yrs wife b Limerick
Margaret 16 yrs daughter Bottler b St Pancras
Margaret 80 yrs Mother b Limerick
Is 16 yr old Margaret - Bridget or Mary or Margaret?
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Hi heywood
I don't know who she is for sure, of course.
My guess is that she is the daughter of Timothy/Edward and Margaret, but her birth wasn't registered. In fact it seems that none of their children were registered. If only baptisms could be found!
They seem quite good with ages in the census, which is why I think that P+J's Margaret may have died in 1880, and possibly their daughter Mary soon after the census.
I can't see Patrick in 1881, which doesn't help. But your theory about the children in 1881 looks very plausible.
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Hi all I don't know if it helps but in marriages June 1897 John Egan married my great aunt Alice Foreman in pancras,this was after her brother my great grandfather married Margaret Mary Egan in 1892 st saviour.when I searched Margaret Mary on the free search Ancestry her fathers name is Edward,?
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Hi all I don't know if it helps but in marriages June 1897 John Egan married my great aunt Alice Foreman in pancras,this was after her brother my great grandfather married Margaret Mary Egan in 1892 st saviour.when I searched Margaret Mary on the free search Ancestry her fathers name is Edward,?
What does it say on the marriage certificates. Everything. Including the names of the witnesses.
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That's her!
10 July 1892, Southwark, St George's Cathedral
Henricum Foreman, father Henri Foreman
+
Margaritam Mariam Egan, father Eduardi Egan
Witnesses
Michaeli? Egan, 23 Pancras St Tottenham Court Rd
Alicia Foreman, 23 East St Kennington Road
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Info only
FOREMAN, HARRY EGAN
GRO Reference: 1896 S Quarter in MARYLEBONE Volume 01A Page 518
FOREMAN, JOHN EGAN
GRO Reference: 1896 S Quarter in MARYLEBONE Volume 01A Page 518
FOREMAN, TIMOTHY FREDERICK EGAN
GRO Reference: 1900 D Quarter in PANCRAS Volume 01B Page 36
SS
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Can Henry and Margaret be found in 1901?
Did Margaret also die young?
Dec 1906 Pancras 1b 90
Foreman, Margaret
Age 32
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2 further birth's so should be around somewhere in 1901.
FOREMAN, HELEN EGAN
GRO Reference: 1902 M Quarter in ST. PANCRAS Volume 01B Page 39
FOREMAN, JOSEPH EGAN
GRO Reference: 1905 M Quarter in ST. PANCRAS Volume 01B Page 30
SS
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FOREMAN, JOHN EGAN
GRO Reference: 1896 S Quarter in MARYLEBONE Volume 01A Page 518
Believe he was born 27.5.1896--taken from school admission record --father Henry--address
13 Lancing Street.
FOREMAN, TIMOTHY FREDERICK EGAN
GRO Reference: 1900 D Quarter in PANCRAS Volume 01B Page 36
Born @ 13 Pancras Street
Are they possibly same address in 1901?
SS
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Great find Jon with the marriage.
I have been looking in the Westminster diocese indexes for Egans.
London Poor Law etc records
4th August 1900
Henry Foreman 28 yrs ; residence Infirmary ; Labourer,married
Parish to which believed to be removable , St Pancras;
Wife, Margaret, 13 Pancras Street
Result of Case: Ex Bk 18/169 Barming Heath.
I have copied some of the headings as I don’t understand them fully.
Looking up ‘Barming Heath’ , it is in Maidstone, Kent.
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So we have Margaret Mary giving her father as Edward in 1892 and the military record for John, giving his father as Timothy in 1889, I think it was.
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Great finds, you two.
I still can't find Margaret in 1901 though. Was she perhaps back with her father, who also appears to be missing? :-\
John's marriage in 1897 was at the register office in St. Pancras (according to his army record) We are still waiting to see if Royfamily can post further details.
I find it hard to believe that none of the children from those two possibly related Egan families were baptised. Perhaps there is a church whose registers have not been included in those catholic records?
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reading of Henry being admitted to asylum in 1900 he was again admitted in 1917 ,whilst on active service WW1, he stated his father Henry spent 6 years in asylums, info was from earlier info on Henry Foreman, when I was looking for my grandfather John Foreman who was Margaret Mary Egans son WW1 record.
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What do you think about ordering certificates to check on those earlier records?