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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Pburkat89 on Saturday 09 August 25 16:52 BST (UK)
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My family history is very intriguing and I keep on turning up blanks.
Its a long story but I'll try keep it simple.
My dad who passed recently was Michael Burkat, his father was Theodore Arno or Arnold Burkat.
When Theodore passed away, a German or Austrian birth certificate was found, we don't know what was on it exactly but our surname Burkat wasn't there, it was something else
Burkat is a made up name apparently.
My dad's mum in her later years said that she would not tell us the name as to protect the family..
She never ever left Wales, she was devout to it, yet when Theodore died, she paid a visit to Germany, something she had never done before.
She then told the story of how Theodore was smuggled out of Europe with his brother Otto dressed as young girls, apparently their mother Nell or Nelly had to get them out as she had relations with a high ranking military official.
They came to the UK and Theodore lived in Wales and married J Sykes, he died in 1997
That's all we know about the history but our surname Burkat is false apparently and I'd love to know more.
Can anyone begin to find his history as I turn up a blank!
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The name Burkat appears to be Polish in origin.
Theodore married in 1958 - do you have this marriage certificate?
Also a possible for his mother, Nelly Burkat married Donald D H Thomas in 1949 - do you have this marriage certificate (there was a child likely born to this relationship in 1950).
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Welcome to Rootschat
Theodore died 1997 in Wales & his birthdate is given as 29.3.1933
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The name Burkat appears to be Polish in origin.
Theodore married in 1958 - do you have this marriage certificate?
Also a possible for his mother, Nelly Burkat married Donald D H Thomas in 1949 - do you have this marriage certificate (there was a child likely born to this relationship in 1950).
We have no certificates at all, they were all taken when my grandfather died.
The Burkat surname was not on his birth certificate and it was not a UK certificate.
We're trying to work out what his surname was, along with his mother's.
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Welcome to Rootschat
Theodore died 1997 in Wales & his birthdate is given as 29.3.1933
Thank you 🙂
I'd love to know where he was born and who his father was, we do not know
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The name Burkat appears to be Polish in origin.
Theodore married in 1958 - do you have this marriage certificate?
Also a possible for his mother, Nelly Burkat married Donald D H Thomas in 1949 - do you have this marriage certificate (there was a child likely born to this relationship in 1950).
There was another Burkat marriage in the same reg district in 1945 - Bertha D who died as Bertha Dorothy Woodhouse in 1962. Could she also be related :-\ Her address on the probate index was 9 Llanfrach Road, Abercarn. She was born c1908.
ADDED
What happened to Otto :-\
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The name Burkat appears to be Polish in origin.
Theodore married in 1958 - do you have this marriage certificate?
Also a possible for his mother, Nelly Burkat married Donald D H Thomas in 1949 - do you have this marriage certificate (there was a child likely born to this relationship in 1950).
There was another Burkat marriage in the same reg district in 1945 - Bertha D who died as Bertha Dorothy Woodhouse in 1962. Could she also be related :-\ Her address on the probate index was 9 Llanfrach Road, Abercarn. She was born c1908.
ADDED
What happened to Otto :-\
A Home Office File / Index held by The National Archives, Kew, in the section ... Internees at Liberty in UK for .... Berta Dorothy
Name: Dorothea Berta Burkat. Date of Birth: 21/01/1906. Place of Birth: London.
See Card for Year it looks like 1908, as previously mentioned By Rosie
HO 396/12/232
1939 to 1942
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14744035
Mark
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This family were German it seems, Mark
Home Office Index, The National Archives, Kew
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14744035
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1939 register for Bertha D Burkat shows her as divorced & living in Battersea. B 21.1.08 but transcribed as 21.6.08 & as Bertha B
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Some Tribunal Files (Various) ...
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_ep=Tribunal&_cr=HO&_dss=range&_sd=1939&_ed=1942&_ro=any&_st=adv
Added:
I can't seem to find a 1939 file, so you would have to enquire direct to the Archives with the Index Card, if not available online.
https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/
Name: Dorothea Berta Burkat. Date of Birth: 21/01/1906. Place of Birth: London.
See Card for Birth year looks like 1908, as previously mentioned By Rosie
HO 396/12/232
Decision 1939 (14-11-39 )
Birth Year Catalogue description correction to The National Archives, submitted.
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So there is no British record of a birth certificate for Theodore or Otto?
If there mum was Nelly and she was Dorotheas daughter, does that mean she could have been born in Germany? Had the two boys there and then come back to the UK with her British born mum, albeit from German parents?
I'm new to this so just trying to piece together what happened as it's all vague
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London, Battersea
Woodhouse
In the 1939 Register, Burkat Bertha was numbered on the schedule as 48 and D [Divorced it seems]
The person numbered 49 on the Schedule is a series of line dashes.
There are a few lines with those line dashes in the adjacent properties.
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My family history is very intriguing and I keep on turning up blanks.
Its a long story but I'll try keep it simple.
My dad who passed recently was Michael Burkat, his father was Theodore Arno or Arnold Burkat.
When Theodore passed away, a German or Austrian birth certificate was found, we don't know what was on it exactly but our surname Burkat wasn't there, it was something else
Burkat is a made up name apparently.
My dad's mum in her later years said that she would not tell us the name as to protect the family..
She never ever left Wales, she was devout to it, yet when Theodore died, she paid a visit to Germany, something she had never done before.
She then told the story of how Theodore was smuggled out of Europe with his brother Otto dressed as young girls, apparently their mother Nell or Nelly had to get them out as she had relations with a high ranking military official.
They came to the UK and Theodore lived in Wales and married J Sykes, he died in 1997
That's all we know about the history but our surname Burkat is false apparently and I'd love to know more.
Can anyone begin to find his history as I turn up a blank!
I presume you have seen the Death Certificate of Theodore (the one for whom they found a Birth Certificate for) and seen what was recorded and what information was given to the Registrar at Death?
If not and nobody kept a copy of that Death Certificate, you could apply for a Certified Full Copy Death Certificate from the Local Registrar (or from the General Register Office if the death occurred in England and Wales).
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So there is no British record of a birth certificate for Theodore or Otto?
If there mum was Nelly and she was Dorotheas daughter, does that mean she could have been born in Germany? Had the two boys there and then come back to the UK with her British born mum, albeit from German parents?
I'm new to this so just trying to piece together what happened as it's all vague
The only thing that 'links Bertha Dorothea to Nelly at the moment is that her marriage, like Theodores was registered in the Caerleon registration district.
You really need to take one step at a time, working backwards from Theodore's marriage certificate. Sometimes witnesses names can be helpful. It may also be a good idea to purchase the certificate for Nelly's marriage
We have established that Bertha Dorothea was born c1908, she can't be the grandmother of Theodore who was born c1933
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My family history is very intriguing and I keep on turning up blanks.
Its a long story but I'll try keep it simple.
My dad who passed recently was Michael Burkat, his father was Theodore Arno or Arnold Burkat.
When Theodore passed away, a German or Austrian birth certificate was found, we don't know what was on it exactly but our surname Burkat wasn't there, it was something else
Burkat is a made up name apparently.
My dad's mum in her later years said that she would not tell us the name as to protect the family..
She never ever left Wales, she was devout to it, yet when Theodore died, she paid a visit to Germany, something she had never done before.
She then told the story of how Theodore was smuggled out of Europe with his brother Otto dressed as young girls, apparently their mother Nell or Nelly had to get them out as she had relations with a high ranking military official.
They came to the UK and Theodore lived in Wales and married J Sykes, he died in 1997
That's all we know about the history but our surname Burkat is false apparently and I'd love to know more.
Can anyone begin to find his history as I turn up a blank!
I presume you have seen the Death Certificate of Theodore (the one for whom they found a Birth Certificate for) and seen what was recorded and what information was given to the Registrar at Death?
If not and nobody kept a copy of that Death Certificate, you could apply for a Certified Full Copy Death Certificate from the Local Registrar (or from the General Register Office if the death occurred in England and Wales).
No I have not seen the death certificate, I was 8 years old when he died..
That side of the family we was estranged from.
Theodore died in Wales in 1997, that I know is a fact as my dad went to his funeral.
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The name may be an anglicised or more phonetic way of saying the name.
I realise you may not know this but was he raised by his mother in Wales?
Did they arrive during the war?
Was he raised locally to his marriage place?
The marriage certificate would hopefully provide a bit of information for you.
Added
Family Search shows similar German surnames - Burkhardt/Burkhard/Burghardt etc
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Just trying to establish if there is a link between Bertha Dorothea Burkat and the family we are researching or if she is a red herring.
This birth registration caught my eye.
Ernest W Burkat
A/M/J 1941
Battersea. London
Mother's Maiden Name: Fries
Volume 1d, Page 282
Ernest's death registration:
Ernest William Burkat
Birth Date: 9 Apr 1941
Death Registration Date: Oct 2006
Winchester, Hampshire.
Register Number E29A
District and Subdistrict 502/2
Entry Number 031
He married in 1967 in Sutton, London. (I won't mention his wife's name as she may still be living - easily found on FreeBMD).
The Gwent Electoral Registers (Ancestry) show that from 1962 to 1969 Ernest is living at 9 Llanfach Road, Abercarn - the same address given on the 1962 probate index for Bertha D Woodhouse (Burkat). No one else listed with him apart from in 1965 when there are also 2 males, W.G Woodhouse and T.R Woodhouse (again, won't list full names in case they are still living).
Looking at the 1939 Register entry for (divorced) Bertha D Burkat (later Woodhouse) in Battersea, members of the family next door have the surname FREES:
Bertha Morris, widow, b. 1880
Elsie I Frees (later Mathews), single, b. 1910 (Elsie I FRIES married Walter Matthews in 1943 in Battersea)
August William Frees, single, b. 1920
Maybe Bertha's maiden name was Fries/Frees and she married and divorced a Mr. Burkat before 1939.
Pburkat89, you say you are new to all this so you may find this confusing but the Rootschat researchers will make sense of it and possibly find more info.
ADDED:
birth:
Bertha Dorothy Friese
Volume 1C, Page 108
q1 1908
Mother's maiden name Allen
Shoreditch, London
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Following on from Jools post above ..........
1911 census Shoreditch
Bertha Friese 32 born Ham Hampshire, dressmaker. Married 11 years (no sign of husband)
Bertha Friese 3 daughter born shoreditch
Elsie Friese 0 daughter born Shoreditch
Births -
FRIESE, BERTHA DOROTHY Mother - ALLEN
GRO Reference: 1908 M Quarter in SHOREDITCH Volume 01C Page 108
FRIESE, ELSIE ISOBEL Mother - ALLEN
GRO Reference: 1910 S Quarter in SHOREDITCH Volume 01C Page 85
- No marriage for Bertha Allen to FRIESE found.
- No sign of Bertha or children in 1921 census.
Bertha ALLEN aka Bertha FRIES
married Edward R MORRIS
1927 St George Hanover Square 1a 1150
1939 Reg for 6 Lindore Rd Battersea
in the home of Bertha MORRIS (1880) widow
With Eloise I Freese b July 1910 dressmaker
August W Frees born 20 Aug 1920 a pipe tester
(ALL living at same address as Bertha BURKET who went on to marry Woodhouse)
Exemption from Internment card from Nov 1939
August Wilhelm FRIES
Birth 20 Aug 1920 Dortmund Germany
Address 6 Lindore Rd Battersea
Occupation Pipe Tester
I am thinking that Bertha Allan / Fries went off to Germany with her 2 girls sometime after 1911 census. While there she gave birth to a son, August Wilhelm, and her daughter Bertha Dorothy married a German called Mr Burkat.
Bertha Fries came back to England before 1927, because she married then.
Did the daughter Bertha Dorothy stay on in Germany? She was back in England by 1938 when she appears on the electoral roll under the surname Burkat. She is the right age to have a son called Theodore Arnold born in Germany in 1933, who came to England at a later date?
All speculation. Marriage certificate is needed.
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Where does Nelly fit in to all this?
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1911 census Shoreditch
Bertha Friese 32 born Ham Hampshire, dressmaker. Married 11 years (so sign of husband)
No Ham in Hampshire. I think she is the Bertha d/o Alfred and Mary living in Cliddesden road Basingstoke in 1891. Not with family in 1901 when she would be abt 21. She says she's been married 11 years - so abt 1900. Not found in England / Wales, so possibly Germany (or they never married) Then she has Bertha Dorothea and Elsie Isobel born in London. Did she go back to Germany after 1911, have August Wilhelm in Dortmund in 1920 and come back to England before 1927 ? She married again in 1927 in London (as a widow or divorcee?) Or is August not her son but a relative of her husband?
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Potential birth?
June qtr 1879
South Stoneham Registration District vol 2c, page 47
Allen, Bertha Rosina Mother's Maiden Name: Fisher
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It would be good to hear from Pburkat.
It may be that Nelly and Bertha Dorothea Burkat are sisters in law.
As we have said, the marriage certificates would hopefully help - Nelly’s certainly.
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Another possibility
Bertha Allen Q2 1880 Basingstoke Volume 2C Page 195
mmn Spiers
This matches with marriage of Albert Allen and Mary Spiers. Basingstoke district is better match to the pob that Bertha gives in 1911 (NOT Ham) and where the family is living in 1891
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There are some trees on Ancestry have the Bertha I found marrying in 1902. But this is a different Bertha d/o James b Shipton Bellinger
901 Piece number 1114. Folio 58 page 8
and married to William Henry Smith in 1911
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWQB-NPF?lang=en
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Info only
Marriages Sep 1949
Burkat Nelly Thomas Caerleon 8c 491
Thomas Donald D H Burkat Caerleon 8c 491
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THOMAS, DONALD DAVID HENRY 1927
GRO Reference: DOR Q4/2010 in NEWPORT (8361A) Reg 1A010 Entry Number 504086739
SS
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Info only
Marriages Sep 1949
Burkat Nelly Thomas Caerleon 8c 491
Thomas Donald D H Burkat Caerleon 8c 491
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THOMAS, DONALD DAVID HENRY 1927
GRO Reference: DOR Q4/2010 in NEWPORT (8361A) Reg 1A010 Entry Number 504086739
SS
Nelly's husband born in 1927, unless Nelly was very much older, she couldn't be Theorore's mother (b 1933)
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Info again.
Births Jun 1950
Thomas **** * Burkat Pontypool 8c 338
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THOMAS, TONY CHRISTOPHER DOB 1950
GRO Reference: DOR Q3/2018 in KENT (564-1G) Entry Number 517762457
SS
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Not sure if this has been posted - confused with the various references to Bertha
Baptisms St Thomas, Bethnal Green
2nd December 1915
Birth 21st January 1908
Bertha Dorothy
Same date
Birth 24th July 1910
Elsie Isabella
Parents Frederick August and Martha Fries, 14 Henrietta Street. His occupation - chef.
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Info only
Marriages Sep 1949
Burkat Nelly Thomas Caerleon 8c 491
Thomas Donald D H Burkat Caerleon 8c 491
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THOMAS, DONALD DAVID HENRY 1927
GRO Reference: DOR Q4/2010 in NEWPORT (8361A) Reg 1A010 Entry Number 504086739
SS
Nelly's husband born in 1927, unless Nelly was very much older, she couldn't be Theodore's mother (b 1933)
Exactly my thoughts about age, Theodore 1933, so Nelly aged min 16=1917, if she married Donald Thomas and son born 1950 she is aged approx 33.
SS
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Not sure if this has been posted - confused with the various references to Bertha
Baptisms St Thomas, Bethnal Green
2nd December 1915
Birth 21st January 1908
Bertha Dorothy
Same date
Birth 24th July 1910
Elsie Isabella
Parents Frederick August and Martha Fries, 14 Henrietta Street. His occupation - chef.
Well found
Now we have Mr Fries name
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Could be a red herring but
1881 piece number 453, Folio 34, Page 2
ADDED
Not this one, he was Frederick Christian, married Florence Ashdown and turned into a hairdresser
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It is more confusing
1911 has August F, the chef, with wife Martha and children - not Bertha and Elsie.
We are investing a lot of time in researching Bertha, yet we do not know how or if she is connected to Nelly.
The daughter though is Eleanor …but marries elsewhere - not Nelly.
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He's on the 1901 census with Martha and children, still a chef, b Dusseldorf, listed as Fritz
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It is more confusing
1911 has August F, the chef, with wife Martha and children - not Bertha and Elsie.
We are investing a lot of time in researching Bertha, yet we do not know how or if she is connected to Nelly.
The daughter though is Eleanor …but marries elsewhere - not Nelly.
There's a birth of a Nelly Fries reg Islington 1899 mmn Hahse
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Until Pburkat comes back and decides what to do re the certificates (sorry to mention that again) we are possibly wasting our time.
It is intriguing though. 😉
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Until Pburkat comes back and decides what to do re the certificates (sorry to mention that again) we are possibly wasting our time.
It is intriguing though. 😉
Hi everyone!
My apologies, I now live in western Australia, my grandfather theordore died when I was 7 and I only met him 3 times, after that I along with my dad never met that side of the family again
I cannot offer any insight to any other family member, meaning Nelly or Bertha, the Welsh of that time were fierce and my dad said you never dared ask their age or history, he didn't even know how old his father was.
It is only when theodore died and this german/Austrian birth certificate came out of the closet (literally) along with a German military helmet that we had any idea of the history.
My Nan paying a visit to Germany was so out of the norm it's not funny, this woman never ever left Wales, a holiday to her was 5 miles up the road and she never disclosed why she went.
Unfortunately she took the secrets to the grave to protect the family.
Can you receive these certificates online if I ordered them?
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I think you have to order by post. Here is the GRO site with an email address for help.
https://www.gov.uk/order-copy-birth-death-marriage-certificate
Someone else may know more information.
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There is a Probate for Theodore available for purchase and download for 1.50 GBP which is about $3 AUD which might be worth looking at.
https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/
Last Name: BURKAT
First Name/s: Theodore Arno
Date of Death: 18 June 1997
Date of Probate: 11 September 2001
Probate Numer: 758954
Document Type: ADMINISTRATION
Registry Office: Cardiff
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There is a Probate for Theodore available for purchase and download for 1.50 GBP which is about $3 AUD which might be worth looking at.
https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/
Last Name: BURKAT
First Name/s: Theodore Arno
Date of Death: 18 June 1997
Date of Probate: 11 September 2001
Probate Numer: 758954
Document Type: ADMINISTRATION
Registry Office: Cardiff
Administration usually means no will. You would probably get the name of who applied for LOA but no more
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Info only.
Fritz/Frederick Fries was registered with surname Frier in 1896. This was corrected in 1929 and re-registered as Frederick Fries. Also at the same time his sister Eleanor Maud was re-registered., both with mmn Harrison.
HARRISON, MARTHA mmn SLATER
GRO Reference: 1870 M Quarter in DUDLEY Volume 06C Page 88
SS
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Just musing.
Bertha Burkat is with her mother in late 1930s -1939 register and electoral registers.
Then she marries in 1945 in Caerleon. Why the move? There were evacuees there but Bertha was an adult.
Nelly Burkat marries in 1949 in Caerleon.
It is thought by the family that ‘Burkat’ was a made up name - yet two women in the same place shared it.
Nelly’s marriage certificate should give her previous name and father’s name.
Theodore’s marriage certificate should give his father’s name.
It has already been asked but what about Otto?
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I think you have to order by post. Here is the GRO site with an email address for help.
https://www.gov.uk/order-copy-birth-death-marriage-certificate
Someone else may know more information.
Yes. Unfortunately marriages have not been digitised, and also can’t be ordered as a PDF as births and deaths can.
You will have to get the reference numbers for the marriages from FreeBMD. Plug them in to the order certificate section at GRO (you have to register, at least that part is free!) and wait for the post to arrive.
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/
Following with great interest.
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We are investing a lot of time in researching Bertha, yet we do not know how or if she is connected to Nelly.
But there's likely to be a connection as Ernest Burkat is living in the same house as some of Bertha's Woodhouse stepsons in 1964
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Mabel, Ernest is Bertha’s son so living with his step brothers.
Really, it is Nelly and her son Theodore who is the focus. A son Otto is also mentioned.
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I have just remembered the child born to Nelly and Donald Thomas - reply #26
He has mother’s maiden name of Burkat - was Nelly a Burkat by birth?
Sorry, if this was discussed earlier.
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Are we all thinking that Fritz or Mr August Frederick FRIES b. 1868 Dusseldorf Germany (occupation cook) had two families on the go at the same time. ?
• With “wife” Martha HARRISON (1870-1940) he had 2 children born 1896 and 1897
• With “wife” Bertha ALLEN (1880- ) he had another family, with children born 1908-1920.
Possibly others?
No death found for him in England.
Did he run away back to Germany?
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Are we all thinking that Fritz or Mr August Frederick FRIES b. 1868 Dusseldorf Germany (occupation cook) had two families on the go at the same time. ?
• With “wife” Martha HARRISON (1870-1940) he had 2 children born 1896 and 1897
• With “wife” Bertha ALLEN (1880- ) he had another family, with children born 1908-1920.
Possibly others?
No death found for him in England.
Did he run away back to Germany?
I wondered that, but why were Bertha's children baptised with Martha as mother?
reply#27
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I wondered that, but why were Bertha's children baptised with Martha as mother?
Both women appear in the census - obviously 2 different individuals.
Children's births registrations with 2 different mother's maiden names.
Makes one wonder WHO baptised the 2 girls in 1915, long after their birth.
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I love this post.
1 question, do we know when Bertha Dorothy/Dorothy Bertha Woodhouse died, have i missed that? known 1962
Who's this guy.
Births Mar 1948
Woodhouse Granville R Fries Pontypool 8c 402
Marriage 1969
WOODHOUSE GRANVILLE R ********* DARTFORD 5F 587
Death
WOODHOUSE, GRANVILLE ROBIN 1947
GRO Reference: DOR Q4/2021 in KENT (564-1O) Entry Number 523164378
SS
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Presumably he is the brother to the one you found the other day, SS.
I think I am getting the families mixed up!
I wish we could find Nelly as easily.
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So sorry guys, so in all of this, what do I/ can I do to help this, bearing in mind I'm in Western Australia
What certificates should I get?
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My personal choice would be the marriage certificate for Nelly burkas to Donald Thomas. It should record hopefully her age, fathers name and occupation.
SS
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Yes, good starting point.
Theodore’s marriage should give his father’s name but maybe that is not as important yet.
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Presumably he is the brother to the one you found the other day, SS.
I wish we could find Nelly as easily.
the one I found the other day was born surname Thomas, mmn Burkat.
SS
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Does the certificate show the place of birth?
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No.
It gives the names of the parties; their status -single, married etc; occupations; residences; fathers’ names and occupations.
The witness names can be helpful too.
The birth of the child from the Thomas/Burkat marriage is Burkat which implies that would be Nelly’s birth surname so that is an added interest.
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Presumably he is the brother to the one you found the other day, SS.
I wish we could find Nelly as easily.
the one I found the other day was born surname Thomas, mmn Burkat.
SS
I just realised that SS and crossed through my post - scrolled down and here you are!
Apologies.
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1953 census Nellie D Thomas and Donald D Thomas living at 13 Chapel Farm Terrace, Abercarn. Could just be another couple with similar names. Abercarn was mentioned before wasn't it.?
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Google translation...
"After this attack, the flag in the building was lowered and burned, and a swastika was hung in its place. After that day, the building was used to meet the housing needs of SA forces. The seizure of all trade union buildings now meant the end of the unions and the socialist labor movement, in and around Siegen. Meanwhile, Fritz Fries, one of the labor leaders, was secretly murdered in Nazi torture houses.
At the local parliamentary meeting held in the Municipality of Siegen on May 8 [1933], the seats of other representatives were empty, except for the Nazis.
The political organs and unions of the labor movement were thus destroyed around Siegen, Wittgenstein and Olpe."
https://yenihayat.de/2-mayis-1933-siegen-wittgenstein-ve-olpe-cevresinde-isci-hareketi-ve-sendikalarin-yok-edilisi-2/
IF the Burkat family was related to the Fries family, could this be the reason why they had to flee from Germany?
On the other hand, what did Bertha's status of "non-refugee" mean?
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Forgive me for stating the obvious – that is, obvious to some, but perhaps not to others? I can still remember my own complete surprise when I found out that the Nellie/Nelly in my own family was actually an “Eleanor”. And of course, an “Eleanor” can also become an “Ellen”.
Something to bear in mind when searching for an elusive Nelly/Nellie?
This Topic mentions the name “Eleanor” twice:
Heywood:
1911 Census August F. with wife & children.
The daughter though is Eleanor….but marries elsewhere – not Nelly
****
softly softly:
Fritz/Frederick Fries was registered with surname Frier in 1896. This was corrected in 1929 and re-registered as Frederick Fries. Also at the same time his sister Eleanor Maud was re-registered., both with mmn Harrison.
****
Perhaps everyone except for me has always been aware of this, but just thought that I would point it out in case it somehow helps.
UKgirl
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Bertha Dorothy and not Eleanor had the Burkat surname, but maybe he could have been raised by Eleanor or her sister Elsie Isobel (aka Nell, Nellie)?
Did Eleanor die in the UK or did she go back to Germany? I can see her in East Sussex until 1963.
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Thanks UKgirl - good point. Those of us of a certain age, with aunties and neighbours called Nelly are with you. 😉
I thought she had married in 1955 but if she is in East Sussex in 1963, perhaps not, PatLac.
If I recall, she is Elsie in 1921 with her mother, Martha.
Bertha’s daughter /sister was also Elsie so it is all a bit of a muddle.
I have wondered if Eleanor was Nelly and half sister to the younger Bertha but then why have the surname Burkat and am now confused.
It’s the heat!
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1953 census Nellie D Thomas and Donald D Thomas living at 13 Chapel Farm Terrace, Abercarn. Could just be another couple with similar names. Abercarn was mentioned before wasn't it.?
There was a census in 1953?
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1953 census Nellie D Thomas and Donald D Thomas living at 13 Chapel Farm Terrace, Abercarn. Could just be another couple with similar names. Abercarn was mentioned before wasn't it.?
There was a census in 1953?
sorry meant electoral register. Ancestry have censuses and electoral registers in same section
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Patience is a virtue. Lets wait and see what Pburkat89 wants to do about certificates. I think we have accounted for nearly all the parties involved except for Nelly.
SS
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On the other hand, what did Bertha's status of "non-refugee" mean?
My guess is that as a British born person of British parents, although automatically assuming German nationality and losing her British status on marriage as per the law in those days, she was able to return to the UK without having to claim refugee status. She was still deemed an alien on outbreak of war, but deemed sufficiently safe not to be interned
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Unfortunately some recent posts to this thread are very confused, and have just added outlandish guesswork with mention of Nazi torture houses, etc. Not helpful.
The first sign of Nelly in the UK is her marriage in 1949.
We have no evidence of Nelly in the UK in 1939 or before.
We don’t know when she was born.
Nelly has no Internment Exemption card, like Bertha Dorothy Burkat (British born but married to a German), or August Wilhelm Fries, because she wasn’t in the UK at that time.
It is possible that Nelly and Bertha Dorothy Burkat nee Fries were sisters-in-law; some family link seems probable. It seems likely that Nelly came to the UK after WW2, or at least late in the war.
If Pburkat89 wants to take the investigation further, then marriage certificates for both Nelly and Theodore will be needed.
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Oh well, you really like to harass me don't you? No worries, I won't post anything on here anymore. You won, Neal, are you proud of yourself?
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I thought she had married in 1955 but if she is in East Sussex in 1963, perhaps not, PatLac.
If I recall, she is Elsie in 1921 with her mother, Martha.
Martha and Eleanor/Elsie are together in 1939 and yes, she married in 1955, but they are not together on electoral rolls.
Debra :)
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The first sign of Nelly in the UK is her marriage in 1949.
We have no evidence of Nelly in the UK in 1939 or before.
We don’t know when she was born.
Nelly has no Internment Exemption card, like Bertha Dorothy Burkat (British born but married to a German), or August Wilhelm Fries, because she wasn’t in the UK at that time.
It is possible that Nelly and Bertha Dorothy Burkat nee Fries were sisters-in-law; some family link seems probable. It seems likely that Nelly came to the UK after WW2, or at least late in the war.
The first record of Nelly as Nelly Burkat was he 1949 marriage, but if she left Germany with her two sons Theodore and Otto disguised as girls, the family is likely to have travelled on false papers with different names. So maybe there are Internment exemption cards for them, we just don't know what names to search for. We know Theodore was born in 1933, we don't know if Otto was older or younger. What is the maximum age a little boy could be and still pass for a girl? My guess would be around 6 or 7, so came to UK early in the war. If Otto was the older brother it would likely be just before the war started.
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Neale1961
From the beginning of the thread, your points have been suggested several times and Pburkat has enquired on here re certificates so hopefully in a few weeks time we might get closer.
Bertha and family have been discussed at length, which at times has been a bit confusing and digressing going into her past history.
It seems as though her mother went to Germany - maybe with Frederick/Fritz who knows.
If August Wilhelm is her son and the younger Bertha’s brother/half brother, he gives his father as August Wilhelm Bose which hopefully doesn’t complicate matters more or adds to further searches but adds to the complexity of the family.
He is not yet directly linked to Nelly, our subject.
Lizzie makes a point that records may be under a different name. We have been told that Burkat is thought to be a false name.
Lastly, PatLac posted that account of a ‘Fritz Fries’ in Germany - perhaps a quite common name.
Again, though, as there is the possibility of a ‘military’ connection and a possibly extreme reason for leaving, PatLac might have thought it helped.
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1953 census Nellie D Thomas and Donald D Thomas living at 13 Chapel Farm Terrace, Abercarn. Could just be another couple with similar names. Abercarn was mentioned before wasn't it.?
That is the correct couple, Donald's sister and her husband are at the same address.
Debra :)
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1953 Nellie D Thomas and Donald D Thomas living at 13 Chapel Farm Terrace, Abercarn.
Possibly then
1954 - 1958
Polling District Crosspenmaen (Croespenmaen?)
Parish Abercarn
20 Melin Place
Donald D Thomas
Nellie D. Thomas
No number 20 listed in 1959
Number 20 Melin Place is back in 1960
Donald D Thomas
1961 -1963
Donald D Thomas
Nellie P Thomas (P not D!)
1964
Donald D Thomas
Marriage, March 1964 Caerleon 8c 321
Donald D Thomas
+
Edith G L Watkins
1965 -
Polling District Pontywaun
Parish Risca
17 Garden Suburbs
Donald D Thomas
Edith G L Thomas
Edith G L Watkins was at that address in 1964
Donald D Thomas at 6, Garden Suburbs, Pontywaun, Cross Keys, until 2010 ER
Edith G L Thomas there in 2011
Possible probate? :-\
Edith Gwyneth Louise Thomas, died 22 July 2013
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jonwarrn, rats, Iv'e just typed up all as per your last post only to see your already there. Well done. :)
SS
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So sorry, SS :(
My psychic powers deserted me!
Good that we agree.
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Can't see a likely death for Nelly / Nellie in 1963 ???
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Edith at address in Garden suburbs back to 1952. A Harry Watkins is with her then
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So sorry guys, so in all of this, what do I/ can I do to help this, bearing in mind I'm in Western Australia
What certificates should I get?
Also the Full Death Certificate of Theodore A. Burkat, the person your famiy actually knew (the person your relative found a foreign Birth Certicate for) and see what information was given to the Registrar at Death.
It may confirm husband of, or Widower of, or other information known by your family at the time of his Death, or it may just record the death. But many give useful snippets or a clue?
You also say you were refused sight of, or never seen that Death Certificate?
My late Mother registered a Death in the 1990s and the Death Certificate gives date and Village of Birth and also the Nearest Registration Town at the time of Birth. It also says Widow of and gives her late Husband's name who died 20 years earlier.
Because it was within the last 50 years you may need to apply to the local Registration District Register Office?
Mark
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Because it was within the last 50 years you may need to apply to the local Registration District Register Office?
Mark
No, it’s available at GRO, the only hitch is you have to order a full certificate rather than one of the less expensive options.
BURKAT, THEODORE ARNO 1933
GRO Reference: DOR Q2/1997 in BLAENAU GWENT (8331) Reg 20A Entry Number 17
Order this entry as a: Order Certificate of selected entry