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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: seamoon24 on Saturday 09 August 25 15:15 BST (UK)
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Hi everyone - I've hit a brick wall. My ancestor is Roger Rodgers b 1845 in Great Bridgeford or possibly Tipton. He married Sarah Elizabeth Booth in 1871 at Crofts Chapel in Rotherham. The wedding cert says his father is called John Rodgers who is a stock taker at an Iron Works. He appears on the 1871 census living with his brother John in Victoria Road Rawmarsh both working as puddlers in the iron industry. Roger is in and out of various prisons including Wormwood Scrubs. Roger doesn't seem to be in any census before 1871 although he should be in the 1851 and 1861 census. He doesn't seem to have been baptised and I can't find any records of his birth. The most likely candidate for his father seems to be John Rodgers b 1819 who married Mary Ann Whitley in 1847 but the 1851 census doesn't show Roger or his brother John. Most of the public trees in Ancestry agree with this although there is no real evidence to support this theory. Can anyone help
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Could you please post the 1871 reference or full details
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It's possible he made up a fathers name or he had a step father called Rodgers.
Who were the witnesses on the marriage please? They can often be helpful if relatives.
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1871
Rodger Rodgers 27 brother with
John Rodgers 32 head
Sarah E 26
Alice 6
Henry L 4
Florence M 2
Sarah Ann Green 17 sister in law
Sarah Ann Wilson 17 sister in law
John Thos 4 months
James Daws 18 lodger
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Her are the 1871 census and wedding cert - thanks
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Sorry I attached the wrong census correction coming
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Do you have his brothers wedding certificate :-\
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I wonder if John the brother put the same fathers details when he married.
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Here's the correct 1871 census - sorry about that
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John says born in Bristol.
1861 possibly a lodger age 25 iron puddler born Bristol with James Hirst and family
Marriage to Sarah Elizabeth Lord in Rotherham Jun 1862
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I don't have his brother's wedding cert but he married Sarah Elizabeth Lord in Q2 of 1862 at Rotherham. His brother was born in 1839.
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The most likely candidate for his father seems to be John Rodgers b 1819 who married Mary Ann Whitley in 1847
This marriage is after the birth of both John and Roger. His occupation at marriage is Forgeman and he is a bachelor.
Where was Roger living when he first started offending, which year was that
.
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In the opening post Rodger is said to be born Great Bridgeford/Tipton. Posting the below (image on FindMyPast) as a back burner.
Baptism of a James Edward Rogers 12th June 1853, parents John & Elizabeth, occupation Boat Builder, abode GREAT BRIDGE, cannot find a GRO birth for chap>
SS
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I don't have his brother's wedding cert but he married Sarah Elizabeth Lord in Q2 of 1862 at Rotherham. His brother was born in 1839.
It may be an idea to get this certificate to see if the same information has been given for their father
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I agree rosie99 re getting the brothers marriage cert.
SS
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He appears on the 1871 census living with his brother John in Victoria Road Rawmarsh both working as puddlers in the iron industry. Roger is in and out of various prisons including Wormwood Scrubs. Roger doesn't seem to be in any census before 1871 although he should be in the 1851 and 1861 census.
He was in prison somewhere according to his records - moved to Portsmouth late April 1861
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I looked at his prison records and think this is Roger 1861 as R. R. Wakefield Prison
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01twx/
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Next of kin according to prison document in 1863 is Mary Rogers of Great Bridge
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There’s also this record
Roger Rogers
Criminal Admission Age 18
Occupation Puddler
Criminal Charge Larceny
Sentence 3
Criminal Admission Date 26 Jun 1860
Criminal Admission Place Hampshire, England
Jail Portsmouth Prison
Source Description Portsmouth Prison, Hampshire: Registers of Prisoners
UK, Prison Commission Records, 1770-1951 - Image on Anc*y
Some info from record
Dates of Receptions in different prisons
Wakefield 21 July 1860 Portsmouth 23 April 1861
No relationship given under heading
Residence of convicts family or next or kin
Ann Rogers , Great Bridge Stafford
Wondering if this might be Ann Rogers and due to age of William could this be a second marriage for John Rogers, GRO birth indexes Benjamin, John & Ann mmn OWEN
Possible deaths Benjamin died 1864 age 11, Ann died 1854 age 4
1861 c
John Rogers 43 Head
Ann Rogers 37 Wife
William Rogers 21 Son
Benjamin Rogers 7 Son
Ann Rogers 6 Daughter
John Rogers 4 Son
John Snr born West Brom & William born Worcester occupation iron moulders
Ann Rogers is a widow in 1871 and has another child Esther
Esther Rogers
Baptism 2 Apr 1865 Wednesbury, St John, Staffordshire
Religion Anglican
Father John Rogers, Moulder mother Ann
Wonder if this is Ann Owen bpt Wednesbury 1827 father William mother Esther
Ann is on 1841 census with her parents and siblings, William, Esther, Benjamin but she is not with them in 1851
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Roger looks to be in prison in 1861 (sentenced in 1860 for 3 years) so I think I need to find out where he was in 1851 when he was about 6 years old. He is not on the 1851 census for John Rodgers b 1819 and his wife Mary Ann Whitley who is a candidate for Rogers father. I think finding John's brother's wedding cert would help too as would finding Roger's birth cert. Thank you everybody for your help.
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You would need to purchase that wedding certificate for John.
Marriage Jun qtr 1862
Lord Sarah Elizabeth
Rodgers John
Rotherham 9c 522
The 522 number is in the higher section of marriages for that qtr in Rotherham so possibly Registry Office or Registrar attended so unlikely to be available to view online.
Marriage locator has
GRO Index 1862 quarter 2, volume 9c, page 522:
Sorry, we cannot locate the church for this marriage. The entry is located between entries for Wicker Holy Trinity (RD: Sheffield) and Austerfield St Helena (RD: Doncaster).
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His records have 2 different next of kin :-\
Ann Rogers c1860
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01twy/
Mary Rogers Oct 1863.
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=tna%2fccc%2fpcom3%2f649%2f00580&parentid=tna%2fccc%2f2b%2fpcom3%2f01481805
I would have thought that if his father was still alive (or not invented ::) ) he would be named as next of kin.
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The wedding cert says his father is called John Rodgers who is a stock taker at an Iron Works. He appears on the 1871 census living with his brother John in Victoria Road Rawmarsh both working as puddlers in the iron industry. Roger is in and out of various prisons including Wormwood Scrubs
If Roger was ever in Pentonville, there is a photo of him.
It seems he indulged in quite a lot of criminal activity, including as a youngster (newspapers)
He is supposed to have been 18 in 1860.
1871 census transcript
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/6450250bf493fdbe223cc38b
His birthplace there is generally transcribed as Dowles. There is a Dowles in Shropshire? Or any chance it was really meant to be Dowlais in Glamorgan? :-\
It's possible he made up a fathers name or he had a step father called Rodgers.
Or he just may not have remembered his father's name. Could John and Roger have simply adopted the Rodgers name themselves, for whatever reason?
This may be desperation, but why not!
In Tipton in 1851 is a Sheen family, with the parents being Roger (labourer in iron works) and Ann. I think their ages are well out here.
Among the children are John, 15, born Bristol, and Roger, 10, born South Wales
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGG6-T6S
Likely in 1841 they are in Gelligaer, Glamorgan, not far from Merthyr, as Shane?
Rodger Shane, 30, Labourer, and family
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7WS-XTR
No Roger junior, youngest is Margaret, 1, who may have died soon after :-\
John older here and born Ireland, but he just might be the Joannes Sheehan baptised in Bristol (Catholic), 27 May 1833 (image on ancestry)
What happened to them?
In an area with perhaps not that many Sheens or similar around, there is an Ann Sheen death registered in Dudley, Dec 1858. Age 61.
Could that be the wife of Roger, with her age out again? :-\
Ann Sheen burial at Christ Church, West Bromwich, 24 Oct 1858
Abode Great Bridge
https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/5d9e6439f493fd6e78c582ca
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In Tipton in 1851 is a Sheen family
Living in Eagle Lane
Parish Tipton
Village of Great Bridge
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Reply #4: "Crofts Chapel"
Note: marriage according to the Rites & Ceremonies of the Wesleyan Methodists. This was later known as Talbot Lane Chapel. It may be that the marriage with a high page number in Reply #20 was at a Methodist chapel, and baptisms also.
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Following on from jonwarn posts and in for a penny
Baptism 23rd April 1853 Franciscus Shee, parents Roger & Anna Mclecuddy (transcript on FindMyPast)
Does Roger alternate christian names.
SS
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That's a pretty incredible find, SS!
Food for thought, indeed.
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Think this might be Edward from 1851 census
GRO deaths
SHEENE, EDWARD age 2
GRO Reference: 1852 S Quarter in WEST BROMWICH Volume 06B Page 373
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Was intrigued by this one 1861,
Great Bridge Street East Side, West Bromwich
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01tx1/
Mary Rogers b. Dublin wid. 40
Henry b.West Brom. 10
Francis b.West Brom. 6
Ann b.Bristol 15
and these popped up in the search
1871 Bridge, Great Canal Side, West Bromwich
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01tx3/
Mary 52, Henry 22, Frank 16, boys born Greatbridge
1881 7 Canal Side
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01tx2/
Mary 60 and son Frank 23
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Gosh, willsy, that's incredible, well done!
You seem to have found the missing link :)
Thus Mary could be the next of kin that was named on one of Roger's records.
How did they go from Sheen to Rogers, that's the puzzle. All I can think of is they began using Roger senior's first name as a surname :-\
GRO deaths
SHEENE, EDWARD age 2
GRO Reference: 1852 S Quarter in WEST BROMWICH Volume 06B Page 373
Another good find.
Likely this is him buried at West Bromwich, 24 September, age 2 years 8 months
https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/685614c68655747a97d289
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It took a while!
Was wondering if the Roger Sheen in Wales 1861 onwards is the right man and I have no idea about daughter Hannah but it might account for the 2 names Roger jnr. mentions. There's also some prison records for a Henry Rogers, Staffs,
Henry Rogers/Rorgers in 1894 has occ. as boatman...3mths
and the paperwork refers to convictions in
1878...18 mths
1883 occ. is labourer...5yrs
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Possibly daughter Ann from 1861 census?
Marriages Dec 1862
Chester Joseph W Bromwich 6b 949
Rogers Ann W Bromwich 6b 949
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1871
Piece 3002 Folio 23 Page number 39
Household Members (Name) Age Relationship
Joseph Chester 29 Head
Ann Chester 27 Wife Born Bristol
Joseph Chester 3 Son
Alice Chester 1 Daughter
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CHESTER, JOSEPH mmn ROGERS
GRO Reference: 1867 D Quarter in DUDLEY Volume 06C Page 42
CHESTER, ALICE mmn ROGERS
GRO Reference: 1870 J Quarter in DUDLEY Volume 06C Page 53
SS
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If that is Ann then she remarried George Trow in 1877,
Name Ann Rogers Chester
Gender Female
Age 36
Birth Date 1841
Marriage Date 26 Nov 1877
Marriage Place Walsall, St. John, Stafford, England
Father
John Rogers
Spouse
George Trow
1881 census ref 2823 64 1
1891 11, Wolverhampton Road, Walsall Foreign, Walsall, Staffordshire, England
George Tron Head Married Male 58 1833 Carpenter Painswick, Gloucestershire, England
Ann Tron Wife Married Female 54 1837 - Great Bridge, Staffordshire, England
John Tron**** Son Single Male 14 1877 Carpenters apprentice Great Bridge, Staffordshire, England
****
CHESTER, JOHN ROGERS
GRO Reference: 1875 S Quarter in DUDLEY Volume 06C Page 49
Deaths Sep 1893
Trow Ann aged 52 Walsall 6b 467
Deaths Mar 1901
Trow George aged 68 Walsall 6b 474
SS
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That's really excellent, SS.
So that accounts for Ann, who I presume was Hannah Sheen in 1851.
It looks like Roger Sheen = John Rogers.
How, why, we may never know!
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Returning back to 1851 census
Roger Sheen 34 Head
Ann Sheen 30 Wife
John Sheen 15 Son-----------------details known
Jeremiah Sheen 14 Son*** born South Wales
Roger Sheen 10 Son---------------details known
Henry Sheen 4 Son
Edward Sheen 11 Mo Son---------details of death known
Hannah Sheen 6 Daughter---details know
*** Married Bridget Rush 1866 West Bromwich
1871 census
Piece 2974 Folio 74 Page number 21
Jermiah Rodgers 25 Head --Born South Wales.
Bridget Rodgers 22 Wife
Elizabeth Rodgers 4 Daughter
Jermiah Rodgers 2 Son
1881 census ref Piece 2718 Folio 147 Page number 5
POB Wales NK
1891 census ref Piece 2264 Folio 86 Page 16
POB transcribed as Aberryschur, Glamorgan, Wales
1901 census ref Piece 2718 Folio 147 Page number 5
POB transcribed as Aberrncke, Wales
Death
Name Jeremiah Rogers
Age 62
Estimated Birth Year abt 1846
Registration Quarter Jan-Feb-Mar
Death Registration Place Bromsgrove, Worcestershire, United Kingdom
Death Date Mar 1908
Inferred Death Place Worcestershire, United Kingdom
Volume 6c
Page 239
Newspaper article--can't read, may not be him
Name Jeremiah Rogers
Topic Other
Residence Date 15 Feb 1881
Residence Place Birmingham, West Midlands, England
Publication Date 15 Feb 1881
Publication Place Birmingham, West Midlands, England
Newspaper Title The Birmingham Daily Mail
SS
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Deleted
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This could be daughter Margaret from 1841 looking at the Reg. Dist.
Gro deaths
SHEENE, MARGARET 1
GRO Reference: 1841 J Quarter in MERTHYR TYDFIL UNION Volume 26 Page 322
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Can anyone help
Well, we've done our best!
Do come back and let us know what you make of it all.
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Thank you everyone for all your hard work. I will be searching for evidence such as a birth cert for Roger. Incidently I searched the GRO with no area specified so that it searched the whole of England. It returned one result. A Roger Rogers born to Sarah Rogers (no father) in the Union Workhouse at Madron, Penzance on. 20th Aug 1845. Perhaps Roger's father is unknown and the Rodgers name carried on through the female line.
I will work through all the suggestions and let you all know if I discover more. Thanks again
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It is possible that there is no birth registration for Roger, it was not unusual that early in registration.
ADDED
Going back to earlier posts you really need to be getting the marriage certificate for his brother John in case that gives further clues. There is no obvious Roger Rogers on census that fits prior to his marriage and it does look as though Jonwarrn's suggestion that the family changed their surname could be correct.
The Roger Rogers born to Sarah in Madron in 1845 died the following quarter
Birth Sep qtr 1845
Rogers Roger
Penzance 9 215
Death Dec qtr 1845
Rogers Roger
Penzance 9 125