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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Perthshire => Topic started by: dunvr on Friday 08 August 25 06:37 BST (UK)
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Hi would it make sense Mungo Haldane 13th of Gleneagles who was baptised 10th Mar 1636 at Kilmadock Perthshire to have had a son named Mungo Haldane? There is not one recorded to him and his wife Ann Grant but that is due to lack of records. The couple had at least two sons John & Patrick Haldane born in the 1660s. You think there should be a son named Mungo as well?
My ancestor Mungo Haldane married 24th April 1692 to Janet Leishman at Auchterarder, Perth. He would be born 1660s or 1670s and would be a perfect candidate to be another son of Mungo Haldane and Ann Grant.
Problem is there does not seem to be a record to prove it. How likely is the link? My grandfather always suspected our Haldane line connected to the Gleneagles line.
Any thoughts?
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You could try looking at the testament dative of Mungo Haldane of Gleneagles dated 11-2-1686, which is available on Scotland's People. However, being a testament dative and not a testament testamentar, it won't contain a latter will, but the executor confirmed might be said to act "in name and behalf" of the children, who might then be named.
Also, did your Mungo own any land? If so, any surviving sasine might mention his father's name.
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Thanks for the clue I will take a look and see if I can find that. Not sure if my Mungo owned land at all where would I even look for that?
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If you find him described as "of" such and such a place in the records of his children's baptisms, it means he owned it. If it says he was "in" such and such a place, he was the tenant.
Another possibility is to look at the minutes of the kirk session and see if there are any references to him there.
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Have a look through these and see if there is anything of use.
https://catalogue.nrscotland.gov.uk/nrsonlinecatalogue/overview.aspx?st=1&tc=y&tl=n&tn=n&tp=n&k=mungo+haldane&ko=p&r=&ro=s&df=&dt=&di=y
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I can't decipher the place name on one of the baptisms of one of the daughters of Mungo, see attached its not saying of but there is a place name, also mentioned of Mains of Cardross? on other baptisms.
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I don't know if this is a clue it came up in the results you sent
Signature of the lands of Kippens granted to Mungo Haldane (Hadden, Haldan, Halden, Haldin). 16 Oct 1673
Signature of the lands of Carbeth etc granted to John Haldane and Mungo Haldane (Hadden, Haldan, Halden, Haldin). 22 Apr 1708
The baptism of another daughter Jannet Haddan in 1708 is done at Kippen.
The name Hadden is being used, also so Mungo died 1686 and lands are granted to his son John and a Mungo Haldane, a brother?
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I can't decipher the place name on one of the baptisms of one of the daughters of Mungo, see attached its not saying of but there is a place name, also mentioned of Mains of Cardross? on other baptisms.
You might find this of interest?
https://www.geograph.org.uk/article/Mains-of-Cardross-and-Castle-Hill
Colin
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Could they have had a Still born, or premature baby; unbaptised in kirk, chapel or church by official and therefore not given witness to his birth? Or perhaps an unterior motive against naming a child by this title? Not satisfactory, but perhaps to be acknowledged if all other avenues are traced and no evidence found? Sorry to dampen and dash your hopes of finding a link. Hope I'm wrong.... and you do find the missing link to your satisfaction.
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What I have is
Mungo Haldane [Hadden] married 24th April 1692 to Janet Leishman at Auchterarder, Perth.
Issue: David Haldane / Haddan 17th Feb 1701 Port of Menteith.
Jannet Haldane 2/11/1707
John Haldane Bp 28th April 1706 at Port of Menteith (my ancestor).
Agnas Haldane (sic) Bp 12/2/1703 at Kippens
Mungo would be born about 1660s or 1670s
The Christian name Mungo was used in the glenagles Haldane line at that time.
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Hi, I think the name is in Dykehead of Cardross, so not the estate, I think this is it here.
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/boundaries/#zoom=16.3&lat=56.15348&lon=-4.26299&b=11&o=100&dates=1880&point=56.1532,-4.3266
See also
https://www.scottish-places.info/towns/townfirst891.html
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Thanks yes Dykehead seems to be the place so a small village he was therefor not a land owner, I found a twin son of David named John in 1701 so he died in infancy. Still no luck on the birth of Mungo 1660s or 70s. I think there should be a couple more of his kids born between 1692 & 1700 but the records are using different spellings of the surname so I can't find them and no image of the 1692 marriage cert.
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Hi, well, I had a thought.
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/roy/#zoom=14.7&lat=56.14906&lon=-4.25961&layers=0
Looks like there was a name change, perhaps when Brucehill was built, so perhaps was a bigger farm / estate, but he was “in” not “of” but that might just mean leased from a major land owner. Haldanes of Gleneagles had been leasing land there 200 years before, so ….
Have you seen Mungou Haldan marriage in 1692 in Gargunnock?
Use wildcard Ha*d*n* on SP
Also Jannet born in 1707 in Kippen.
Also interesting M*g* H*d*n* family in Dun, search baptisms, 40 years before, if they had land they might have moved.
Lots of searching to be done!
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Thanks! Yes I have Janet 1707 all of the following children there should be a couple more between 1692 & 1700. I'll try wild card on SP good idea.
John Haldane / Haddan 17th Feb 1701 Port of Menteith twin died in infancy before 1706.
David Haldane / Haddan 17th Feb 1701 Port of Menteith.
Agnas Haldane (sic) Bp 12/2/1703
John Haldane Bp 28th April 1706 at Port of Menteith died aged 81 in Colmonell.
Jannet Haldane 2/11/1707 at Kippen, Stirling
I did see the Mungou Haldan marriage in 1692 in Gargunnock and another Mungo marriage in 1694 to Elizabeth. This maybe the Gleneagles Mungo grandson of Mungo Haldane 1636 of Gleneales, he had a son David who had a son Mungo that married Elizabeth.
I noticed also those Haldane / Hadden in Dun but have not linked them.
I need more answers.
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Looks like there are lots of wills to go after, there is a Ha*d*n* Will for someone in Cardross in the 1670’s also other nearby parishes, Mungo seems to be a popular name!
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The Mungo Haldan marriage banns from 1692 gives no clues don't know what the wording at the end means after Janet's name
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Seems to be several Mungo's a couple of marriages in 1690s
HALDAN
MUNGO
ELIZ. THOMSON/FR100 (FR100)
21/10/1694 Auchterarder
The one you mentioned
HALDAN
MUNGOU
MAGDALLAN MITTCHELL/FR310 (FR310)
01/09/1692 Gargunnock
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Couple of wills but am I even going to be able to read them
Haldane
William
23 / 8 / 1688
in Mains of Gleneagles, parish of Blackford
and the one you spotted
Haldane
James
26 / 10 / 1670
lawful son to umquhile Robert Haldane in Cardross
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Fuzzy match brings a good possible parents for Mungo if David has a brother. Only found 3
HADANE
DAWID
MWNGO HADANE/MARGRAT GREAM
23/12/1666
HALDAN
JANAT
MWNG. HALDAN/MARGRAT GRAGAME
13/06/1669
Auchterarder
HALDAN
JEAN
MWNGO HALDAN/MARGRAT GRAHAM
17/10/1672
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Took me a moment as well abbreviated- parishioners of parish proximo.
Which begs the question, why not in their own parish.
Gleneagles is in Blackford the next parish over. But in does not say Blackford parish, so why not, further away even?
It suggests links to Auchterarder, there were three marriages there in quick succession?
I think you need to build trees for all the families and see where it takes you.
Happy Hunting
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I am very suspicious Mungo's parents were Mungo Haldane and Margaret Grahame. Dykehead is only 5 miles from Gleneagles, Its to bad that marriage entry did not say from Blackford. Thanks for the help. I'll keep snooping I suspect all the Auchterarder ones are related.
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The Mungo Haldan marriage banns from 1692 gives no clues don't know what the wording at the end means after Janet's name
It ends "parochioners procl: pro: jmo". "parochioners" (= parishioners) tells us they were both resident in the parish. "procl:" is an abbreviation of "proclaimed", in other words had their banns read. "pro: jmo" is an abbreviation of the Latin "pro primo" meaning "for the first time" - it is not unusual for all three readings of the banns not to be recorded.
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A mention of Viscount Haldane and Mungo Haldane of Gleneagles............might be of vague interest ......
The Perthshire Advertiser, etc.
Perth, Tayside, Scotland
Sat, 26 Nov 1921
Page 11
https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-perthshire-advertiser-etc/178580523/
Sandra
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Thanks gr2 always good to learn.
I’m a bit out of practice as well!
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Red Books of Scotland, 1600-1939 for Mungo Haldane
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Thanks for the info on Haldane of Gleneagles I have the book authors copy Haldane of Gleneagles which I got from my grandfather who claimed we we related to the Gleneagles lot. One wonders how come these Mungo's are appearing so close by to the Gleneagles estate yet no baptism found. I am beginning to wonder if Mungo of Gleneagles had an illegitimate son as some of the wealthier lairds did in those days. It is the case with another Scottish family I descend from who had a son with an unmarried women. He tried to hide it very well. Maybe Mungo is like this an illegitimate son or grandson of Gleneagles Haldane's? Just cannot find the baptism of my Mungo.
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It may be the parish records have not survived.
While Auchterareder records go back that far Blackford, do not seem to, have you checked the dates for the relevant parishes?
Also were Covenanters recording BMD?
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Haven't got around to checking the dates I think for Auchterareder there are gaps in the 1600s there should be Mungo baptized 1660s / 70s but there isn't. There is possible siblings though the couple Mungo Haldane and Margaret Graham seem to be a good fit to be his parents.
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MUNGO HALDAN & ELIZ. THOMSON 1694 marriage at Auchterarder I extracted it just for a look and looks like a different place name.
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No place name there, just proclaimed that I can see.
But as I said earlier, you need to build trees for them all and find where they were if possible.
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That one may very well be the grandson of Mungo Haldane of Gleneagles who married an Elizabeth see in list below. I may have to look at all the families I am not sure on the one in DUN with father Mungo.
Mungo Haldane of Gleneagles
Born c.1636 died 1685.
Married 1st to Anne/Anna Grant who died c.1662 with whom he had three children:
1. John his heir who married Mary Drummond.
2. David who married Mary Graham
3. Margaret who married Patrick Murray of Ochtertyre
Married 2nd to Margaret Gray who died c,1680
with whom had one child
1. Janet who married Patrick Smythe
David (above) Born 1661 died 1738 had three children with Mary Graham
1. John (died 1736) married Anne Ross with whom had three children
a. David, b. Patrick died (c. 1735), c. Elizabeth
2. Patrick
3. Mungo married Elizabeth ??? with whom had three children
a. John (died 1803), b. George (died 1758)
c. Robert (died1826),
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One wonders how come these Mungo's are appearing so close by to the Gleneagles estate yet no baptism found.
The simplest answer is that the record of the baptism, if such a record ever existed, has not survived.
Possible reasons for a baptism record being missing
- the parents omitted to have the child baptised
- the child was baptised in a religious denomination other than Church of Scotland and no-one reported it to the C of S
- the minister baptised the child but forgot to tell the Session Clerk about it
- the Session Clerk neglected to make an entry in the register of baptisms
- a record was made but part or all of the register was lost or damaged
The further back you go, the more records have failed to survive.
The important thing is never to assume that, just because something looks right and there's no other likely candidate in the surviving records, it actually is right.