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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Norfolk => Topic started by: petey22 on Wednesday 06 August 25 11:35 BST (UK)
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dear all,
I am searching for the birth/ christening of Harmer Rogers, born around 1753, somewhere in Norfolk. I have searched Ancestry and FamilySearch without success.
His parents are: Joseph Rogers and Elizabeth Rippingale, married 16-08-1750, Heigham, Norfolk.
possible sister: Catherine Rogers 26-08-1752, St Andrew, Norwich, Norfolk.
He marries to Elizabeth Quinton or Quintin (dob unknown) 28-10-1771 at Tibbenham, Norfolk.
I have the year of birth from an the death/ burial entry:
burial 28-01-1802 at Woodford, Essex, aged 49, thus 1802 - 49 = 1753 ::)
any help much appreciated :)
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I found Catherine that you mentioned (baptism 26/08/1752), although the record I found, had her with a K not a C and it was an original hand-written record, with Father Joseph and Mother Elizabeth. I also found on Dustydocs another possible sister Susanna Elizabeth Rogers, born to Joseph and Elizabeth Rogers (baptism 27/8/1760 Norfolk), so another possible. I guess you have probably already found a daughter for Harmer and Elizabeth.
Regards.
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These transcriptions on Freereg, there may be more but no Harmer
Norwich : St Andrew : Parish Register
Katherine ROGERS Born 25 Aug 1752 Baptism 26 Aug 1752
John ROGERS Born 29 Oct 1753 Baptism 5 Nov 1753
Richard ROGERS Born 03 Oct 1754 Baptism 8 Oct 1754
Susanna ROGERS Born 27 Aug 1760 Baptism 27 Aug 1760
See Also Sister Elizabeth Baptised At Same Time
Elizabeth ROGERS Born 27 Aug 1760 Baptism 27 Aug 1760
See Also Sister Susanna Baptised At Same Time
Colin
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I have looked for Harmer's baptism as well to no avail yet. I even checked under his mother's name in case he was baptised before she married. I also checked any Harmer forename (and variants) baptisms across Norfolk 1745-1760 and no likely baptism under Rogers or Rippingale variants.
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Son of Harmer & Elizabeth.
Harmer ROGERS Born 1 Aug 1773 Baptism 4 Oct 1773
Norwich : St Peter Mancroft : Parish Register
No luck with Harmer Rogers senior but below might be worth researching?
It may just be coincidence, or was there some family contact?
Parents Jonah & Margaret Springfield, two children below
Harmer SPRINGFIELD Baptism 29 Sep 1758
Norwich : St George Colegate : Parish Register
Jonah SPRINGFIELD Baptism 23 Jan 1750/1
Norwich : St George Colegate : Parish Register
Jonas SPRINGFIELD to Margaret HOWTON
Marriage 9 Jun 1745
Norwich : St Simon and St Jude : Parish Register
Margaret SPRINGFIELD wife of Jonas
Burial 30 Nov 1783
Norwich : St Simon and St Jude : Parish Register
Jonas SPRINGFIELD Burial 19 Dec 1778 Age 64
Norwich : St Peter Hungate : Parish Register
Colin
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Really, if accurate, an age of 49 on burial in January 1802 would make it more likely that he was born in 1752. But that would clash with Katherine born 25 August 1752. Unless they were twins and Harmer wasn't baptised with her.
Or he could have been in his 49th year perhaps.
The Harmer name comes from John Harmer, a surgeon in Norwich, like Joseph. Mr Harmer's wife was Joseph's aunt.
John Harmer's very brief will, dated 3 September 1753, leaves everything to Joseph Rogers, who is also named as executor.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS2G-676P-V?view=fullText&keywords=Joseph%20Rogers%2CJohn%20Harmer&lang=en&groupId=
John Harmer was buried at Norwich St Andrew, 21 Dec 1755
https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/68485d8b86557454051c47b3
Is Joseph's son John accounted for? :-\
Norwich : St Andrew : Parish Register
John ROGERS Born 29 Oct 1753 Baptism 5 Nov 1753
Was John named after John Harmer?
Could John later have been called Harmer, rather than John?
He would have been eighteen when he married in 1771, very young for those days (but he was obviously young anyway!)
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St Giles burials Harmer Rogers 24 November 1773 infant.
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Elizabeth Rogers nee Quinton is buried 17 February 1803 at Woodford age 49 -born circa 1755
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dear all,
thanks for your efforts and all the information, I shall work my way through everything ;D
@ ColC
I have now also checked for other possible offspring of Joseph and Elizabeth:
i. Elizabeth Rogers, bap 19-05-1751, Old Meeting (Independent) Norwich
ii. Katherine Rogers, bap 16-08-1752, St Andrew, Norwich
iii. John Rogers, bap 05-11-1753, St Andrew, Norwich
iv. Richard Rogers, bap 08-10-1754, St Andrew, Norwich
v. Diana Anna Rogers, bap 30-11-1755, St Giles, Norwich
vi. Joseph Rogers, bap 16-01-1756/7, St Giles, Norwich
vii. Susanna Elizabeth Rogers, bap 27-08-1760, St Andrew, Norwich
( Susanna Elizabeth Rogers, burial 30-08-1760, St Andrew, Norwich)
i. Curious that the baptism takes place in an Old meeting house (Independent) .The actual baptism entry reads: ' Elizabeth daughter of Joseph and Elizabeth Rogers (of Wrentham) bap 19-05-1753. Wrentham being just accoss the border in Suffolk ???
v and vi. Not so sure, why the sudden move to another Church? St. Anrew doesnt look very far from St. Giles.
vii. I believe that Susanna and Elizabeth are one daughter with a double name, at least it looks that way on the actual baptism register with what looks like an Elizabeth being added between and above Susanna Rogers with an upside down v below between and below.
@ jonwarrn
I like the 'John Harmer' name change theory. I have been nursing the idea that maybe Harmer Rogers was adopted and had something to do with the departed John Harmer, but was not very far with that. Anyway, as you say, the clue would be to see if 'John Harmer' is accounted for ! As of yet I have not looked at any of the other possible offspring of Joseph and Elizabeth, excepting Susanna Elizabeth, who didnt live for long.
Think I need to look at John Harmers family and try to put that together too :P
@Paco
Thanks for the Dusty Docs reference, I do not know this site and hope to make good use of it in the future once I get the hang of it ::)
@amondg
I had searched for Elizabeth Quintin or Quinton and had found only 2 candidates:
i. Elizabeth Quintin: parents Thomas and Margaret, baptised 29-01-1748, St Stephen, Norwich
ii. Elizabeth Quinton: parents John and Mary, baptised 15-09-1751, St Benedict, Norwich
burial Elizabeth Quinton, 25-08-1751? St Benedict, Norfolk ???
This was a far as I got, so the burial of ' Elizabeth Rogers nee Quinton is buried 17 February 1803 at Woodford age 49 -born circa 1755' Is something worth looking into with regard her origins ::)
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On googlebooks I came across the 'History, Gazetteer and Directory of Suffolk, and the Towns- Page 407' the mention of John Harmer, druggist at Wrentham in Suffolk, this is the same place as mentioned on the baptism of:
i. Elizabeth Rogers, bap 19-05-1751, Old Meeting (Independent) Norwich,
parents Joseph and Elizabeth Rogers of Wrentham.
Were Joseph Rogers and John Harmer working together back in 1751 at Wrentham, Suffolk? Still trying to work out the significance of this link ???
jonwarrn, I think you are defiantly on the right track and that John Harmer plays a large part in this story ! ::)
(I hope the link below works)
https://www.google.nl/books/edition/History_Gazetteer_and_Directory_of_Suffo/ZgxIAAAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=John+Harmer+surgeon+Norwich&pg=PA407&printsec=frontcover
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It seems that John Harmer was a practicing surgeon at Norwich, Norfolk in September of 1744:
https://www.google.nl/books/edition/Philosophical_Transactions_of_the_Royal/VUNFAAAAcAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=John+Harmer+surgeon+Norwich&pg=RA1-PA194&printsec=frontcover
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Looking at the will of John Harmer, there is not very much information other than that he is a Surgeon in the city of Norwich and leaves everything to Joseph Rogers also a surgeon of the same city.
There are 3 dates noted, it seems the will was written 08 September 1752, witmessed 29 dec(?) 1755 and executed(?) 14-04-1768. Does this mean that John Harmer died shortly before 1768?
This would be handy in working out which John Harmer is this John Harmer on my list ;D
https://nrocatalogue.norfolk.gov.uk/index.php/harmer-john-of-norwich-2
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John HARMER died in 1755
"Norwich ... On Wednesday last died Mr. John Harmer, formerly an eminent surgeon and man-midwife in this city in which he aquired great reputation. He had retired from business several years."
Saturday, Dec. 27, 1755
Publication: Read's Weekly Journal Or British Gazetteer
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Wow :o That's him, thanks very much,,, so he died on Wednesday 24th dec 1755 on Christmas eve.
I have 3x burials on my list for a John Harmer in 1755:
burial 17-11-1755 St. Margret's, Westminster, London.
burial 21-12-1755, St. Andrews, Norwich, Norfolk.
burial 20-01-1755, Southrepps, Norfolk
???
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I did find a burial on FindMyPast for a John Harmer, surgeon in Norwich St Andrews in 1755, from archdeacons transcripts, but the day and month is ??/?? However, several lines upwards, it says 25 Dec 1755. Not sure if that means all 11 burials, or just the Sarah Earl one.
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I did find a burial on FindMyPast for a John Harmer, surgeon in Norwich St Andrews in 1755, from archdeacons transcripts, but the day and month is ??/?? However, several lines upwards, it says 25 Dec 1755. Not sure if that means all 11 burials, or just the Sarah Earl one.
hiya ;D,
Well a burial for an John Harmer, surgeon in Norwich St Andrews in 1755, dec 25th would fit very nicely indeed. He dies on Christmas eve and is buried on Christmas day.
I shall have to visit St Andrews, Norwich on my next trip over to England from here in Zwolle, the Netherlands. Possibly Harmer has a gravestone there ::)
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A snippet from the page of St Andrew's Norwich burials showing John Harmer's burial.
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Oh yes, definitely John Harmer, Surgeon buried 25th december 1755 at St. Andrews, Norwich.
Many thanks, yes of course these are the Bishops transcripts and copied from the original inscriptions of the Church records. Maybe somewhere along the line mistakes where made ?
The entry of the burial at St. Andrews, Norwich on Ancestry does seem to read 21-12-1755.
I'm sorry as much as I try I cannot add an image on Rootschatm !!!! :P
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Whilst enjoying a glass of glen Scotia I got to thinking and mulled over John Harmer, surgeon of Norwich, finally having noted his demise in 1755 when a thought occurred to my somewhat muzzy brain: If he left all his Worldly possessions to his friend and colleague Joseph Rogers then he had no offspring to leave everything to and his wife must have passed before he did.
On a previous post it was discovered that John Harmer and the father of Joseph Rogers (also Joseph Rogers (dob unknown) married to two sisters:
Joseph Rogers married Mary Cross 1724 St Giles in the field, London, and
John Harmer married Catherine Cross 1717 St Bennet, Paul's Wharf, London.
I actually discovered a couple named Cross who had 2 daughters, Mary and Catherine,,, anyway, still busy with that and getting back to the point, on searching there was only one Catherine Harmer who died, St Andrew, Norwich, Norfolk, buried 15-02-1750. Looking at the document it should be 1751. Unfortunately it doesn't 'state wife of', ' age' or anthing to tie it all together but coincidence?
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Where Harmer Rogers born c1753 fits in is still a mystery. I wonder if he was adopted, and/or if he was a secret child of John Harmer by a dalliance he had with a woman and the Rogers family agreed to take Harmer on as their child. The notable absence of a baptism for Harmer Rogers is why him fitting in to the family is a mystery.
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Is Joseph Rogers who married Elizabeth Rippingale 1750 the son of Joseph who married Mary Cross 1724 ?
If so, knowing that his father's friend had no children and hopeful of an inheritance is his son John is actually John Harmer Rogers.
Have you found a will of Joseph Rogers to possibly give some credence to this. You have already found out that they possibly married sisters.
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As Harmer left all to Joseph Rogers in his will, it accrued to me that he must have had no children but also that his wife Catherine must have died before his own demise.
On searching : Catherine Harmer, buried 15-02-1751, St. Andrew, Norwich, Norfolk ;D
Unfortunately Harmer's will and notification in the newspapers do not give an age, so still cant pin down when or where he was born. I have 10 possible candidates born in Norfolk alone :P
@ Coombs, Indeed, a very plausible theory. Unfortunately besides the YOB I have found no other clues that John is John Harmer Rogers ::)
I shall look for the will ,,,,, sometimes I get lucky
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It can be frustrating when you are trying to find some definite evidence but as yet nothing, then again that is what genealogy is about, trying to find any links.
I am also wondering if John Rogers born 1753 is Harmer himself.
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Was John named after John Harmer?
Could John later have been called Harmer, rather than John?
Likewise, was Joseph's daughter Catherine named after his aunt Catherine Harmer?
Who was John Harmer?
Manorial records may perhaps help to work it out, i.e.
Nicholas Harmer (married Frances) / William Harmer (brother) / Diana Harmer (sister, spinster) / Joseph Rogers (surgeon)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-D1PQ-D5Q?view=fullText&keywords=Harmer&lang=en&groupId=
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John Harmer and Joseph Rogers being both surgeons would have surely studied somewhere, possibly together and possibly where and when they met.
Would they have had induction papers? would there be records at where they studied that may mention such things as DOB, parents names and the like :o
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So Nicholas, Diana and William Harmer were siblings.
I think they had a brother John, but I'm not sure if he died fairly young or not. Possibly.
Their father's will, I haven't read it.
https://nrocatalogue.norfolk.gov.uk/index.php/harmer-william-gentleman-of-swafield
Luckily it is NCC, so on FamilySearch
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSND-1SVK-L?view=fullText&keywords=Harmer&lang=en&groupId=
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John Harmer and Joseph Rogers being both surgeons would have surely studied somewhere, possibly together and possibly where and when they met.
Remember that John Harmer was Joseph's uncle by marriage.
He married before Joseph was born.
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You probably know about the Harmer Family Association which has a website and lots of Harmer info. It started covering the Sussex Harmers (my line), I think it was over 30 years ago, and branched out to Harmers in Norfolk and Gloucestershire, who are probably unrelated to the Sussex lot.
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This 1736 will (Susanna Bacon) confirms the Harmer/Rogers family connection through Catherine.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSJN-XSCS?view=fullText&keywords=Joseph%20Rogers&lang=en&groupId=
jonwarrn is right, there may be other clues if you use full text search on Family Search to examine the Norfolk records.
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there may be other clues if you use full text search on Family Search to examine the Norfolk records.
Another clue? From 1764
Hannah Bird, of Norwich Spinster make this my will as follows, I Give to Ann Harmer and Mary Harmer Daughters of Mr Harmer Baker in Bear street thirty pounds apiece, To miss(?) Nicholls my friend and companion one hundred pounds To, Joseph Rogers Surgeon twenty pounds
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C39F-51ZW?view=fullText&keywords=Joseph%20Rogers&lang=en&groupId=
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And this manor record suggests that Joseph inherited copyhold land from the Harmers for life after Diana died in 1771 …
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DR73-NHR?view=fullText&keywords=Joseph%20Rogers&lang=en&groupId=M9S7-W1T
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According to this record Harmer is Joseph’s eldest son
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-D1PQ-LQS?view=fullText&keywords=Harmer%20Rogers&lang=en&groupId=
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Do we know when Joseph died? He may not have been in Norfolk, as the manorial records describe him as of Pinner, Middlesex.
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Do we know when Joseph died? He may not have been in Norfolk, as the manorial records describe him as of Pinner, Middlesex.
Is this the correct Joseph ROGERS? Died in 1806.
"Yesterday se'nnight died at Swaffham, aged 84, Joseph ROGERS, Gent, formerly a surgeon and apothecary of this city"
Wednesday, Nov. 26, 1806
Publication: Bury and Norwich Post
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Typing in "Harmer Rogers" into the FamilySearch text search, I have found several results which will keep us entertained for a while. Court records for North Walsham, Paston, Knapton etc. It does seem Harmer is the son of Joseph after all, even though an obvious baptism cannot yet be found.
https://www.familysearch.org/en/search/full-text/results?count=20&q.text=%22harmer%20rogers%22
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After working my way through all the links and searching further I have come up with:
Willus Harmer c1655 and Elizabetha Payne marry 23-06-1679 at Swafield, Norfolk.
They have children:
Elizabetha Harmer, bap 13-05-1680, Swafield
Willus Harmer, bap 23-08-1682, Swafield
Sara Harmer, b 21-01-1682, bap 04-02-1682, Swafield, † buried 07-08-1690, Swafield
Johes Harmer, bap 25-01-1684, Swafield
Nicholaus Harmer, b 16-01-1688, bap 20-01-1688, Swafied
Sara Harmer, bap 17-08-1691, Swafield
Ricardus Harmer, bap 12-09-1693, Swafield
Diana Harmer, b11-08-1695, bap 16-08-1695, Swafield
So This must be the John (Johes) Harmer we have been looking for :o
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I have now also checked for other possible offspring of Joseph and Elizabeth:
i. Elizabeth Rogers, bap 19-05-1751, Old Meeting (Independent) Norwich
ii. Katherine Rogers, bap 16-08-1752, St Andrew, Norwich
iii. John Rogers, bap 05-11-1753, St Andrew, Norwich
iv. Richard Rogers, bap 08-10-1754, St Andrew, Norwich
v. Diana Anna Rogers, bap 30-11-1755, St Giles, Norwich
vi. Joseph Rogers, bap 16-01-1756/7, St Giles, Norwich
vii. Susanna Elizabeth Rogers, bap 27-08-1760, St Andrew, Norwich
( Susanna Elizabeth Rogers, burial 30-08-1760, St Andrew, Norwich)
i. Curious that the baptism takes place in an Old meeting house (Independent) .The actual baptism entry reads: ' Elizabeth daughter of Joseph and Elizabeth Rogers (of Wrentham) bap 19-05-1753. Wrentham being just accoss the border in Suffolk ???
v and vi. Not so sure, why the sudden move to another Church? St. Anrew doesnt look very far from St. Giles.
vii. I believe that Susanna and Elizabeth are one daughter with a double name, at least it looks that way on the actual baptism register with what looks like an Elizabeth being added between and above Susanna Rogers with an upside down v below between and below.
Please, did we manage to confirm that Diana Anna c 1755 and Joseph c1756/7 both baptized at St. Giles, Norwich were actually of the same family?
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Diana Ann born November [no date], bapt 30 Nov 1755, dau of Mr Joseph Rogers and Elizabeth his wife
Joseph born 16 January 1757, baptised the same day, son of Joseph and Elizabeth Rogers
It looks as if both St Giles and St Andrew were functioning at the time. They are about a kilometre apart. If Joseph (and maybe Diana) were sickly babies who needed an immediate baptism, St Giles might have been closer to the family home.