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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Herefordshire => Topic started by: NorthernGeezer on Monday 04 August 25 23:03 BST (UK)
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This post a year ago kind of got resolved to a degree on the Lancashire page but..............
I've just found out that the Thomas Davies from Burghill with a father James Davies who is a Cooper I was researching is NOT the correct Thomas Davis :-\ :-\
The Thomas Davies I should be researching is from Holmer and born in 1855 to a James Davies farmer :o :o
I think what's thrown me is the Cooper thing, my Thomas Davies is listed on a marriage certificate to a Sarah Tremble in 1876 in St Helens lists his occupation as a Cooper and is listed as such on subsequent census records onwards so you can see where the confusion occurs.
Now, his sons marriage certificate, Thomas Davis, in 1930 lists his father Thomas Davis as a famer, deceased.
I've spent the last few days looking for both Thomas and his father James in Holmer in 1855 and for census records that match and I cant find either of them.
Now, 1855 Thomas appears on my records in 1876 and subsequent census records after this but I cant find him from his birth in 1855 up to the 1871 census, I cant find find anything on father James at all.
There is a lot of info on previous posts which is correct, specifically those from 1881 but I'm struggling for anything prior to his 1876 marriage so any help in tracing him back would be a great help.
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What and where is the previous thread? Is it this one?
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=883284.54
What information do you have that IS correct? You have not said.
Your opening post above, is really quite confusing, so it is difficult to know how to help.
When Thomas married Sarah Tremble in 1876 his father is recorded as James Davies (a cooper).
Is this the correct marriage?
Why do you think James Davies should be a farmer?
You seem to have your Thomas's confused - or you have jumped a generation?
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Did you check the 1881 census
His birthplace is Holmer Herefordshire & he is a sheet glass maker. Birthyear shown as 1855
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Why have you discounted the Thomas Davies living in Burghill, with father James, a cooper?
Holmer and Burghill are 3 miles apart.
1861
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M75H-3LS?lang=en
1871
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:V55V-WZ7?lang=en
1851 Same family
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGPH-8T8?lang=en
James Davies in 1841
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M77D-ZNL?lang=en
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MARRIAGE 16 January 1845 Burghill, Herefordshire,
James DAVIES to Sarah TRILLOE
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NK86-1LF?lang=en
James DAVIES baptised 8 May 1817 Hope under Dinmore
son of Uvedale and Harriett Davies
Uvedale DAVIES - A clock and watch maker
See here
https://herefordshiregenealogy.com/2022/04/16/52-ancestor-uvedale-davies/
Previous Thread
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=891548.msg7655798#msg7655798
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Something strange
1881 has a 9yr old son Thomas b Haydock. Baptism shows he was born Feb 1870 but only baptised 1875. Parents Thomas - occ collier & Sarah
GRO birth online shows mmn Yardley
1876 marriage between Thomas DAVIS & Sarah Yardley
However - dtr Emily has mmn Tremble but no birth for 1yr old dtr Sarah with mmn Tremble or Yardley
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You say his son Thomas married in 1930??
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In 1891 Thomas Davies 37 occ Cooper b Holmer is in Herefordshire with wife Cecelia also 37 b St Helens (Transcribed as St Ellens)
1885 marriage St Helens Thomas Davies to Celia Wildbore nee Ashton
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In 1891 Thomas Davies 37 occ Cooper b Holmer is in Herefordshire with wife Cecelia also 37 b St Helens (Transcribed as St Ellens)
1885 marriage St Helens Thomas Davies to Celia Wildbore nee Ashton
This information is posted on previous thread.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=883284.54
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Neale1961
Firstly, thanks for the quick response, I'll answer the questions seperately as I get to them rather than do it en block, this has proven to be a complicated search.
Yes, that is the correct previous thread in your reply #1
You are also correct, James Davies on the marriage certificate of Thomas and Sarah in 1876 is a Cooper, on my grandfathers marriage certificate, Thomas's son with Cecilia, in 1930 its listed as farmer.
I too was convinced by the Cooper link but its been pointed out to me by another person researching the same family that the Thomas Davies born in Burghill in 1854 is NOT the same person as the Thomas Davies born in Holmer.
Another fact pointed out is by this person is that her Thomas Davies born in Burghill is married to a Mary Saunders, the Holmer Thomas was married twice, Sarah Tremble and Cecilia Ashton/Wildbore.
I believe everything after the 1876 marriage to Sarah is correct, the 1881 census has him in St Helens with his place of birth as Holmer not Burghill, the 1891 census physically has him Holmer with his new wife Cecilia and everything after that up to his death in Hereford in 1922 ties in too.
I now believe that the fact there is a Thomas and James Davies in Burghill who are both Coopers is just pure coincidence, the Mary Saunders marriage has convinced me of that.
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CaroleW
I believe the 1881 census is correct.
At this point in time I know nothing about Holmer Thomas, I was convinced Burghill Thomas was the right man.
I believe the 1876 marriage to Sarah is also correct, this means that at some point between his birth in 1855 and the marriage he himself moved to St Helens or James the father took the whole family.
I'm also happy that the 1891 census which has him back in Holmer with Cecilia is also correct.
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Neale1961
I agree completely with your posts at #3 and #4 for the Thomas born in Burghill, its what I had all along till the Holmer fact raised its head and the marriage to Mary Saunders.
The occupation farmer of James Davies on my grandads wedding certificate raised questions too, however, I accept that they could be one and the same, given the short distance between villages and whilst I havent checked the census records for Burghill Thomas after 1891 I'll get in touch with the other person and ask her the question.
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CaroleW
Sarah Yardley is a new one on me.
I have the marriage certificate of Sarah Tremble, widow, to Thomas Davies, cooper not collier in 1876.
I also have the the 1881 census showing Thomas as a sheet glass maker born in Holmer and William age 9 born in Haydock.
Further research has found that Sarah Makin married a John Tremble in 1870, the son William born a year later.
John Tremble died in 1872, the 1776 marriage of Sarah to Thomas shows her surname as Tremble.
Both Emily age 4 and Sarah age 1 are listed on my 1881 census as born in St Helens.
William is also listed on this census age 9 with the surname Davies.
My grandfather, Thomas James Davis was born in Holmer in 1888, this would have been following the move from St Helens back to Herefordshire, Holmer Thomas married Cecilia Ashton/Wildbore in 1885 in Prescott so the move back to Holmer must have been after this date.
Grandad married Elsie Bell in 1930 in Salford.
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Thomas Davies born 1855 Burghill married Matilda Mary Saunders in 1880.
His father was Thomas, a labourer and thatcher.
His mother was Mary BRACE.
Have you thoroughly checked the other person’s claim, through documented evidence and sources?
Are you aware that there are 2 Thomas Davies born about 1 years apart in the same area. One is the son of James ,and the other is the son of Thomas.
You still appear confused about the 1930 marriage, and who was married and who was his father.
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Neale1961
The relative of Burghill Thomas is actually a professional genealogist who works at the Herefordshire County Council archives so I'm pretty sure she'll be pretty sure of her facts.
In my recent search two names came up as potential mothers to Holmer Thomas, a Sophia Seymour and an Alice Atkins.
Looking back at last years posts, Ladyhawk came up with two potential mothers also, Thomas Davies, born September 1855, Hereford, MMN Brace, GRO 6a/402, also June 1856, MMN Preece, GRO 6a/431.
1930 wedding, I have the certificate, Thomas James Davis ( my grandfather) married Elsie Jane Bell on 26th December, father listed as Thomas Davis, deceased, occupation listed as farmer.
I would hazard a guess that my grandad was named after his father with a middle name after his grandfather.
Forget about the no letter ';E' in Davis, the family story is he had a falling out with his family and dropped that letter from our surname.
Also, your reply at #8 is correct, whilst the story proved inaccurate, Thomas met Cecilia in St Helens, not the other way round, the evidence is correct.
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Have you thoroughly checked the other person’s claim, through documented evidence and sources?
Please post the supporting documents or links to the sources.
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Neale1961
I'll ask her if she'll share what she's got.
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I now believe that the fact there is a Thomas and James Davies in Burghill who are both Coopers is just pure coincidence, the Mary Saunders marriage has convinced me of that.
But you haven’t seen the that marriage certificate to know what is recorded. So how do you know?
Working from here-say and assumptions is not effective. You need FACTS.
The occupation farmer of James Davies on my grandads wedding certificate raised questions too,
James Davies occupation is NOT a farmer on any wedding certificate. You keep saying you are looking for James, a farmer. WHY?!
In your words (reply 14):-
“1930 wedding, I have the certificate, Thomas James Davis ( my grandfather) married Elsie Jane Bell on 26th December, father listed as Thomas Davis, deceased, occupation listed as farmer.”
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This is the relevant birth certificate. PLEASE POST IT BELOW.
This will tell you where & when he was born, his parents’ names and his father’s occupation.
DAVIES, THOMAS JAMES Mother - ASHTON
GRO Reference: 1888 S Quarter in HEREFORD Volume 06A Page 464
This is the relevant marriage certificate. PLEASE POST IT BELOW.
This will give you information about his father. Does it match his first marriage?
DAVIES Thomas WILDBORE Celia 1885 Prescot Register Office or Registrar Attended Prescot R/37/183
WILDBORE Celia DAVIES Thomas 1885 Prescot Register Office or Registrar Attended Prescot R/37/183
This is the 1st marriage posted below.
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Morning Neale1961
The GRO birth record for Thomas James Davies is correct, I have a copy of his birth certificate which lists his father Thomas's occupation as Cooper and Journeyman.
The attached marriage certificate to Sarah Tremble is also correct, although Sarah is not the mother of the above Thomas.
I believe the marriage details regarding Cecilia Wildbore/Ashton are also correct.
Apologies, I cited James Davies farmer at your reply #18, I meant Thomas Davies is listed as a farmer
I've asked the other person for proof of the Thomas Davies/ Matilida Mary Saunders marriage, not just the GRO record 6a/782.
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Images for parish register appear to be on FamilySearch, but only viewable at an affiliate library.
https://www.familysearch.org/en/search/catalog/79366
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You are correct mckha489. Thanks. :)
Transcript of the marriage is available.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NK86-1DS?lang=en
I posted details in reply #13.
Unfortunately, I don’t think NorthernGeezer has followed up on any of it yet, or obtained the necessary documents to provide accurate information.
I don’t think there is much more I can do to help.
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I've emailed the lady in question, she's at work at the moment but will see what she has when she gets home, she seems pretty sure of her facts though and the Family Search record probably confirms it.
I have access to her family tree on Ancestry and its pretty conclusive, she's very thorough people wise but a little light on the details, Burghill Thomas is there, married to Mary and a shed load of kids too.
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Well well well, news about Matilda Mary Saunders................. my contact accepts she married A Thomas Davies, other than the evidence on Family Search and the GRO record, she cant confirm its THE Thomas Davies from her, and possibly my family.
She's going away to revisit her evidence, I've asked her to consider the Burghill/Holmer link, given the fact they are only a few miles apart.
That still leaves us with Grandad Thomas citing his fathers occupation as a farmer but if we disregard that, it hopefully leaves us with Thomas married to a Sarah Tremble and a Cecilia Wildbore/Ashton and his father being James Davies.
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Again, I draw your attention to my reply #13.
There are 2 Thomas Davies born around the same time, and in the same Burghill - Holmer area. One is the son of James (a cooper), and the other is the son of Thomas (a labourer and thatcher).
They are not the same person!
I believe the marriage details regarding Cecilia Wildbore/Ashton are also correct.
If you do not have the actual document, you will not know what it says. It doesn’t matter what you “believe" it might say. The indexing of a document does not give you the detail that is on the document.
That still leaves us with Grandad Thomas citing his fathers occupation as a farmer ……
Again, I encourage you to look at and consider the evidence you have for the occupation of his father.
Birth certificates of children,
2 marriage certificates,
numerous census records,
perhaps even newspaper mentions.
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Thomas Davies living in Burghill, with father James, a cooper
1861
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M75H-3LS?lang=en
Birth registrations in Hereford RD for all the other children, mother's maiden name Trilloe.
Baptisms for them in Burghill.
But nothing at all for Thomas :(
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1871
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:V55V-WZ7?lang=en
And another free transcription on FreeCen
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5e610240f4040b121d20049c/
Place of birth for Thomas is Hereford St Peter(s)
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Place of birth for Thomas is Hereford St Peter(s)
Yes, I suspect the family moved into Hereford for a short while during which time Thomas was born.
The census records show that the family moved about a bit, but never too far.
Place and date of birth according to Census (1861 and 1871 information provided by parents)
1861 - Thomas Davies 1854 born Burghill
1871 - Thomas Davies 1856 born Hereford St Peter
1881 - Thomas Davies 1855 born Holmer
1891 - Thomas Davies 1854 born Holmer
1901 - Thomas Davies 1855 born Hereford
1911 - Thomas Davies 1855 born Hereford
1921 - Thomas Davies 1855 born Hereford