RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Antrim => Topic started by: Marie Baker on Monday 28 July 25 16:37 BST (UK)
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I’m really hoping someone here can give me some advice,before I start talking to myself with frustration.
I need to get the birth certificate for an Elizabeth McKeown,born 19 th June 1919 in Ballymoney, Antrim. I have found the certificate on Ireland GRO so know the necessary numbers , but because I don’t know her mothers Surname,given names,or place of residence at the time of birth, I am unable to acquire the certificate. What can I do please?
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The only Ballymoney registered Elizabeth McKeown birth in 1919 I can see is this one:
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/birth_returns/births_1919/01250/1519365.pdf
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...and of the other 3 Elizabeth McKeown births in GRONI index for 1919, none of those had a 19th June 1919 birthdate either (and places of birth were Lurgan and Newry).
@Marie Baker, have you possibly mixed up some of the info you have provided in your opening post? Can you double check and post again with any corrections?
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There is a tree on the "Ancestry" website showing Elizabeth McKeown born on 19 Jun 1919, but unfortunately the cited origin of that date of birth is the England & Wales death index, meaning that the date in question is only as accurate as the person who registered her death (under her married name of Cooper) many years later in 1991. In other words, the date may be wrong.
Can the OP provide any other information about Elizabeth that is reliable?
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There is a tree on the "Ancestry" website showing Elizabeth McKeown born on 19 Jun 1919, but unfortunately the cited origin of that date of birth is the England & Wales death index, meaning that the date in question is only as accurate as the person who registered her death (under her married name of Cooper) many years later in 1991. In other words, the date may be wrong.
Can the OP provide any other information about Elizabeth that is reliable?
Believe her surname at death was COOK
SS
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Correct, my mistake.
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Info only, month date correct, year correct, month May not june.
SS
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/birth_returns/births_1919/01247/1517974.pdf
added, there is also this birth 21st June 1919, mothers christian name Annie, wonder if the 2nd Cook/McKeown child born 1945 was named after her.
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/birth_returns/births_1919/01243/1516732.pdf
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I noticed births like these when I checked... but they are nowhere near Ballymoney in Co. Antrim.
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Thank you for your replies.we have Elizabeth’s death certificate which gives her date of birth as 19/06/1919. We connected that date with the birth in Ballymoney.
Her surname at death was Cook. She was married in England in 1941.
I have attached the birth record I found, but without the mother’s details I can’t get the certificate from GRONI. We need Elizabeth’s and her mother’s certs. As my granddaughter is having genetic testing for a breast cancer gene.
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The only Ballymoney registered Elizabeth McKeown birth in 1919 I can see is this one:
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/birth_returns/births_1919/01250/1519365.pdf
Top left see Page 102.
They have just listed it by Union rather than district
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Thank you, I’ve seen it to and it’s possible it’s correct,but without any information for the mother I can’t get the certificate to prove it one way or another! So I’m stuck!!!
No one seems to know how to get a certificate without that information.
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Presumably you have the 1941 marriage record. What was Elizabeth's father's name and occupation?
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Margaret Canning
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The only birth that fits the screen shot you posted from Find My Past in the one that's already been mentioned several times-
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/birth_returns/births_1919/01250/1519365.pdf
The birthdate is 23 May 1919 and the registration date is 13 June 1919.
The Registration district is Ballymoney (as in your screenshot) and the sub-district is Bushmills. The townland where Elizabeth was born is Ardihannon but her father's (and probably the whole family lived at Ballynaris. It wasn't uncommon for woman to go to their mother or another relative to give birth.
https://www.townlands.ie/antrim/cary/billy/bushmills/ardihannon/
Thank you, I’ve seen it to and it’s possible it’s correct,but without any information for the mother I can’t get the certificate to prove it one way or another! So I’m stuck!!!
No one seems to know how to get a certificate without that information.
Why do you need 'a certificate'? the above link is the birth registration which shows the same information you would get from looking at GRONI's database or ordering a paper certificate. If you really do want a certificate see GRONI's website.
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The date of birth on a death cert is only as accurate as the informant stated some disagree in one way or another from the actual birth cert, be it a year, month, or day out or all 3.
IrishGen and GRONI are from 2 different sources, the former the quarterly copies, the latter the original ledgers, whilst there could be transcription indexing errors on either, the chances of both doing so are slim and there is no birth for an Elizabeth McKeown on 19 June 1919 in N.I.
If you need a paper certificate you can get it from either GRONI or the Irish GRO for a birth in 1919. The old quarterly indexes (Findmypast, Ancestry, Familysearch) are no use to GRONI, they do not have any pre-partition quarterly BMD copies.
They are largely obsolete for ordering from GROI, Roscommon too. https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/view/?record_id=5fc6443d7a-445335 or see FAQ on IrishGen
You don't need mother's maiden surname at all for a cert, if tick the box on the search index. If you use the "Order a birth certificate" that has extra questions as most are ordering a recent cert for someone living.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=849427.msg7168488#msg7168488
No relationship to deceased is legally needed either on GRONI or GRO England to get a paper cert, can just enter none in the box and are presented with a payment page £15 for the paper cert.
Edit: have suggested an index amendment to mother Canning to GRONI.
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James and Margaret’s marriage 1917
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/marriage_returns/marriages_1917/09741/5534862.pdf
Margaret with her parents 1911
https://census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Bushmills/Ardihannon/127077/
Margaret’s birth
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/birth_returns/births_1895/02219/1837223.pdf
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The Canning family are in Ardihannon in 1911-
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Bushmills/Ardihannon/127077/
It looks like Margaret's mother died 1920 from heart trouble-
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1920/05125/4410599.pdf
Her father Alexander died 5 years earlier-
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1915/05261/4459463.pdf
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My worry remains that your "connection" from the birth date in the 1991 death registration to the 1919 "Ballymoney" birth registration could be unsound, quite simply because the birth date in the death registration could be wrong (eg. could be literally years out). Taking the birth date as a guide (rather than specific) and forgetting about that "Ballymoney" birth for a moment, is there any other reliable information you have about Elizabeth? There was mention of her father being called Patrick - where did that come from?
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is there any other reliable information you have about Elizabeth?
father on the Eton, Buckinghamshire marriage cert, DOB on 1939 register?
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There are about 12 trees on Ancestry listing Elizabeth McKeown born in May 1919 to father James and mother Margaret Canning. They show her as dying in Bushmills, Co Antrim. Not England. Some say she was still alive and living in Bushmills in 2009. (No precise death date and no supporting evidence). The trees might be wrong but it adds further doubt to this being the lady who died in England in 1991.
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those trees also have a death date for mother Margaret of 14 Oct 1962 in Bushmills and there is no registration nor for a James McKeown in 1962. Who started the chinese whisper is hard to tell.
https://ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/110431456/person/102612424575/facts
1964 interred in Dunluce is a different James & Margaret https://findagrave.com/memorial/255610471/james-mckeown and they were of 55 Huey Crescent, Bushmills per death notices though that is what gets mentioned as a birth location for father James in the Meeke tree long before the street & houses appeared. Children don't match headstone (mind you the headstone date for James is 10th when he died 14th according to death notice and 15th according to GRONI). Don't believe it just because its carved in stone!
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Must say thank you to everyone who has tried to help with this.
I can now say thanks to Softly Softly, I’ve finally got the correct person. The birthdate on the death certificate was indeed wrong,and should have been 21st June 1919.
So Elizabeth’s mother was Annie Maginnis, and her father Patrick McKeown. I haven’t been able to find their marriage as yet or any siblings for Elizabeth,but will keep hunting!
Once again very grateful for all the help.
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Hi Marie
The irishgenealogy website that has been cited for the birth you are looking for, will give you all the information you need. You can also just get an electronic copy from PRONI if you want to but it won't give your more information. There is no need for the additional information you say is required. You can just open an account with PRONI with a few pounds with then click on the order options for any certificates you find. But for anything in Northern Ireland before 1922, you can see the same thing for free from Irishgenealogy.
What you may not know is that you can also look up the marriage of Elizabeth's parents in Irishgenealogy as the marriage should be before 1922. From that you can get more information on Elizabeth's mother. Unfortunately you cannot use Irishgenealogy for death registrations in Northern Ireland after 1922 (or it it might be 1921). So you would need to go to PRONI for her mother's death registration. Also for any of Elizabeth's sisters (if she had any).
If you have Elizabeth's marriage certificate then you can use the farther's name, occupation and location (assuming they are all recorded) to confirm any births you find in Irishgenealogy. I would think you would be interested in following any possible sisters of Elizabeth.
If any witnesses at Elizabeth's marriage were related to her, then that could be another avenue to explore.
Best of luck to you and your granddaughter.
Linda
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Marriage of Patrick McKeown and Annie magennis.
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/view/?record_id=8f6abc883a-526603
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GRONI not PRONI
Added:
GRONI Online
Possible younger brother.
U/1921/172/1021/52/119 Edward McKeown 26th April 1921 Male Magennis Lurgan
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A brother
SS
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/birth_returns/births_1921/01187/1494509.pdf
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Possibly Annie Maginnis in the 1911 census:
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Armagh/Lurgan_Urban/Shankhill_St__Place/296739/
Patrick in 1911:
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Armagh/Portadown_Urban/Obin_Street/306253/
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I am being warned there are more replies pending but anyway I have seen two probably siblings of Elizabeth on the PRONI indexes. First is Edward born 1921 and second is Mary born 25 Sep 1923. Due to spelling variants I used begins with "Mag" for mothers maiden name. Mary's birth is under magennes.
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I am being warned there are more replies pending but anyway I have seen two probably siblings of Elizabeth on the PRONI indexes. First is Edward born 1921 and second is Mary born 25 Sep 1923. Due to spelling variants I used begins with "Mag" for mothers maiden name. Mary's birth is under magennes.
For Edward, see replies #24 & #25
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If the 1911 census is correct then these are the births of Annie(Ann) & her brother Henry, both of same address.
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/birth_returns/births_1899/02044/1782928.pdf
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/birth_returns/births_1897/02143/1813740.pdf
SS
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1901 census
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Armagh/Lurgan_Urban/Thomas_Street/1026363/
SS
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I can now say thanks to Softly Softly, I’ve finally got the correct person. The birthdate on the death certificate was indeed wrong,and should have been 21st June 1919.
So Elizabeth’s mother was Annie Maginnis, and her father Patrick McKeown.
Marie, so do you have the 1941 GRO mariage certificate of Elizabeth McKeown to Clifford Samuel Cook? Does it say Elizabeth's father was Patrick and was that marriage R.C.or perhaps Registrar Office?
https://ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/8753/records/46465149
I ask as Patrick McKeown married Annie Magennis 19 Aug 1918 in St Peter's Roman Catholic Church, Lurgan but Clifford Samuel was Anglican.
https://irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/marriage_returns/marriages_1918/09718/5525930.pdf
You have gone from a Church of Ireland father of James to a R.C one of Patrick.
Elizabeth's birth you now prefer https://irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/birth_returns/births_1919/01243/1516732.pdf
Before you order any paper birth certificate for Elizabeth you need to get the marriage cert if you do not have an original or recently purchased copy of it.
As an aside Clifford Samuel Cook born Pontypridd is with his 'step-father' William Gwilliam & mother on the 1939 register https://ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/61596/records/1383428
His father James Cook (died WW1) married Phyllis Margaret Hobbins in Ystradyfodwg Anglican Church, Glamorganshire, Wales 1905. Phyllis is listed as mistress on the 1921 scored out and changed to wife but seems to be no re-marriage.
https://ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/62105/records/1304478
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Birth of older brother Patrick, address as per Annie & Henry.
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/birth_returns/births_1884/02673/1984978.pdf
Marriage of John & Elizabeth
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/marriage_returns/marriages_1883/10939/5997967.pdf
SS
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Jon ni
Yes I have the marriage certificate, January 1st 1941, St Mary’s parish church Farnham Royal, Buckinghamshire. Father Patrick McKeown soldier. C of E, marriage.