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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Antony1977 on Monday 28 July 25 10:10 BST (UK)

Title: Just can’t find birth cert ?
Post by: Antony1977 on Monday 28 July 25 10:10 BST (UK)
My partners family history states that a relative of hers married in 1925, groom being 21 and bride being 12 😱

Attached cert suggests it’s true

However looking at 1939 register suggests DObS as

William george mallet bn
2nd April 1892
Gladys whitehead bn
3rd Sept 1891

Wedding 2nd April 1925

So ages at time of marriage would be early to mid 30s

I’ve checked GRO but can’t for the life of me find any certs for those dobs or even the year of birth if she was actually 12

Can anyone help with gro for Gladys and William?
Title: Re: Just can’t find birth cert ?
Post by: Marmalady on Monday 28 July 25 10:16 BST (UK)
The wedding on that certificate took place on 25th April, not 2nd (can't see year in the clip shown)
The groom was 21 and the bride was 22, not 12
Title: Re: Just can’t find birth cert ?
Post by: Antony1977 on Monday 28 July 25 10:18 BST (UK)
The wedding on that certificate took place on 25th April, not 2nd (can't see year in the clip shown)
The groom was 21 and the bride was 22, not 12

That’s what I said to my partner. But I can’t find the GROs to back me up and the 1939 register suggests they are a lot older 🤔
Title: Re: Just can’t find birth cert ?
Post by: Marmalady on Monday 28 July 25 10:27 BST (UK)
According to FreeBMD
Gladys M Whitehead and William G Mallet were married in June quarter 1914 in the Northleach district of Gloucestershire
(June quarter covers April, May, June -- so fits the April 25th date)

There are two possible births that are worth investigating:
Gladys Mary Whitehead Northleach Sept qtr 1891
Gladys May Whitehead Salford  Sept qtr 1892

but for a Sept birth , I would expect a Dec qtr registration
Title: Re: Just can’t find birth cert ?
Post by: Antony1977 on Monday 28 July 25 10:28 BST (UK)
Looking at my research from years ago ( which was minimal as I was supposed to be looking at paternal side) I had the wedding date as April 25th 1925)

It was only as a result of my partners relative saying it was well known in the family that she was 12 that I thought I’d take a look
Title: Re: Just can’t find birth cert ?
Post by: MollyC on Monday 28 July 25 10:29 BST (UK)
From FreeBMD Births (corrected):
Whitehead, Gladys Mary  Northleach  6a 378  SepQ 1891
Mallett, William George   Crediton 5b 381   SepQ 1894

(There are three others named William George Mallett 1891-95)

Bride was 23. Looks like the groom was only aged 20.  Possibly born April but not registered until July. 
What birth dates do you have in 1939?
Title: Re: Just can’t find birth cert ?
Post by: fiddlerslass on Monday 28 July 25 10:30 BST (UK)
The bride is on the 1901 census with father James a police constable and mother Rose, sister Elsie Maud. This is the birth registration of the 2 sisters, Gladys actually registered with second name Mary!

    WHITEHEAD, ELSIE  MAUD      BIGNELL     
GRO Reference: 1889  S Quarter in NORTHLEACH  Volume 06A  Page 378
   WHITEHEAD, GLADYS  MARY      BIGNELL     
GRO Reference: 1891  S Quarter in NORTHLEACH  Volume 06A  Page 378

Marriage
Marriages Jun 1882   
BIGNELL    Rose        Tetbury    6a   617    


Whitehead    James         Tetbury    6a   617   

 

Title: Re: Just can’t find birth cert ?
Post by: Antony1977 on Monday 28 July 25 10:31 BST (UK)
William george mallet bn
2nd April 1892
Gladys whitehead bn
3rd Sept 1891

That was from 1939 register
Title: Re: Just can’t find birth cert ?
Post by: Antony1977 on Monday 28 July 25 10:37 BST (UK)
The bride is on the 1901 census with father James a police constable and mother Rose, sister Elsie Maud. This is the birth registration of the 2 sisters, Gladys actually registered with second name Mary!

    WHITEHEAD, ELSIE  MAUD      BIGNELL     
GRO Reference: 1889  S Quarter in NORTHLEACH  Volume 06A  Page 378
   WHITEHEAD, GLADYS  MARY      BIGNELL     
GRO Reference: 1891  S Quarter in NORTHLEACH  Volume 06A  Page 378

Marriage
Marriages Jun 1882   
BIGNELL    Rose        Tetbury    6a   617    


Whitehead    James         Tetbury    6a   617



Thanks for your help
Title: Re: Just can’t find birth cert ?
Post by: MollyC on Monday 28 July 25 16:47 BST (UK)
Where is Gladys in the 1901 census, NW or SW England?  What age and place of birth?
I think both need their ages checking in 1911 and 1921 to form likely conclusions.

I have corrected Gladys' birth from Salford to Northleach in reply #5, but that means she was 33 at the marriage in April 1925, not 22 as on the cert, because she would have turned 33 on 3 Sep 1924 (and was probably registered in SepQ).

If William George Mallett was born 2 Apr 1892 as per 1939 register, then his birth must be the registration in Gloucester, JunQ 1892 and he was 33 at the marriage.
If he was born 2 Apr 1894 and registered at Crediton, he had just turned 31 before the marriage on 25 Apr 1925, but his birth must have been registered at least 3 months later, in the Sep quarter.

I think!  Please check my calculations.
Title: Re: Just can’t find birth cert ?
Post by: Antony1977 on Monday 28 July 25 16:51 BST (UK)
Will do in a bit

I researched Gladys dad James, he was a ex policeman at the time of the marriage of Gladys

I’ve Found he lived in the police station in Northleach with his wife rose so that would give more weight to it being northleach Gladys and not Salford Gladys

He retired in 1912
Title: Re: Just can’t find birth cert ?
Post by: MollyC on Monday 28 July 25 17:07 BST (UK)
However if they were married in 1914, then Gladys would have been 12 and William would have been 12 or 10 - which bears out your original story.

Correction: They would have been 22.  See Reply#15
Title: Re: Just can’t find birth cert ?
Post by: Marmalady on Monday 28 July 25 17:10 BST (UK)
However if they were married in 1914, then Gladys would have been 12 and William would have been 12 or 10 - which bears out your original story.
1914 - 1892 =22, not 12
She would have had to be born in 1902 to be 12 at the time of a 1914 marriage
Title: Re: Just can’t find birth cert ?
Post by: Antony1977 on Monday 28 July 25 17:11 BST (UK)
I think the entry from Fiddlerslass confirms the GRO birth certificate entry

The bride is on the 1901 census with father James a police constable and mother Rose, sister Elsie Maud.

This is the birth registration of the 2 sisters, Gladys actually registered with second name Mary!

    WHITEHEAD, ELSIE  MAUD      BIGNELL     
GRO Reference: 1889  S Quarter in NORTHLEACH  Volume 06A  Page 378
   WHITEHEAD, GLADYS  MARY      BIGNELL     
GRO Reference: 1891  S Quarter in NORTHLEACH  Volume 06A  Page 378

  

According to FreeBMD

Gladys M Whitehead and William G Mallet were married in June quarter 1914 in the Northleach district of Gloucestershire

(June quarter cover April, May, June -- so fits the April 25th date)



 
Title: Re: Just can’t find birth cert ?
Post by: Millmoor on Monday 28 July 25 17:34 BST (UK)
There is a baptism for Gladys May  Whitehaed in Northleach  in 1891

Baptism 25th October Born 3rd Sept Parents James and Rose Whitehead. Father's occupation Police Constable. Abode is Prison Stamfsnelt( place name difficult to be sure off). Presumably this is the correctional facility in the parish and where James was an employee not an inmate!

Dob therefore confirms the 1939 register.

William
Title: Re: Just can’t find birth cert ?
Post by: MollyC on Monday 28 July 25 17:43 BST (UK)
You are quite correct and I had got myself in a twist with this!  The marriage certificate must be 1914, not 1925.  Both were aged 22, the bride being 7 months older than the groom.

Looking at age at death, they would appear to be a pair who were registered in Birmingham.

Mallett William G    61    Birmingham 9c 445  JunQ 1953 - fits a birth in Apr 1892
Mallett Gladys M    77    Birmingham 9C 530  DecQ 1968 - fits a birth in Sep 1891
Title: Re: Just can’t find birth cert ?
Post by: ShaunJ on Monday 28 July 25 17:47 BST (UK)
Quote
Stamfsnelt

Hampnett.  That's where Northleach prison is.
Title: Re: Just can’t find birth cert ?
Post by: Antony1977 on Monday 28 July 25 17:47 BST (UK)
You are quite correct and I had got myself in a twist with this!  The marriage certificate must be 1914, not 1925.  Both were aged 22, the bride being 7 months older than the groom.

Looking at age at death, they would appear to be a pair who were registered in Birmingham.

Mallett William G  61   Birmingham 9c 445  Jun 1953 - fits a birth in Apr 1892
Mallett Gladys M  77   Birmingham 9C 530  Dec 1968 - fits a birth in Sep 1891

No problem , thanks for the help

Perhaps if they were more accurate on documents back then this would t have arisen, but I suppose they never thought people from the future would have an interest in them!
Title: Re: Just can’t find birth cert ?
Post by: jonwarrn on Monday 28 July 25 18:02 BST (UK)
Mallen in the 1921 census free TS?
In Smethwick (Kings Norton RD)
William George Mallen, 29 yrs 2 mo, born Gloucester, Gloucestershire
Gladys Mary Mallen, 29 yrs 9 mo, Northleach, Gloucestershire
Leslie Arnold Mallen, 3 yrs 2 mo, Birmingham, Warwickshire
Charles James Mallen, 8 mo, Birmingham, Warwickshire
Title: Re: Just can’t find birth cert ?
Post by: Andrew Tarr on Monday 28 July 25 18:17 BST (UK)
My partners family history states that a relative of hers married in 1925, groom being 21 and bride being 12 😱

Attached cert suggests it’s true

I think the handwriting doesn't suggest that at all.  Apart from the improbability of being married at 12, the written digits indicate that the writer uses a single stroke for a 1, as in the 21 above.  In any case a minister would not sanction such a marriage !
Title: Re: Just can’t find birth cert ?
Post by: Antony1977 on Monday 28 July 25 18:20 BST (UK)
My partners family history states that a relative of hers married in 1925, groom being 21 and bride being 12 😱

Attached cert suggests it’s true

I think the handwriting doesn't suggest that at all.  Apart from the improbability of being married at 12, the written digits indicate that the writer uses a single stroke for a 1, as in the 21 above.  In any case a minister would not sanction such a marriage !


Appears back in the olden days it was allowed

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Marriage_Act_1929
Title: Re: Just can’t find birth cert ?
Post by: jonwarrn on Monday 28 July 25 18:24 BST (UK)
Mallen in the 1921 census free TS?
In Smethwick (Kings Norton RD)

MALLETT, LESLIE  ARNOLD GEORGE    
Mother's Maiden Surname: WHITEHEAD 
GRO Reference: 1918  M Quarter in KINGS NORTON  Volume 06D  Page 71
   
MALLETT, CHARLES  JAMES     
Mother's Maiden Surname: WHITEHEAD 
GRO Reference: 1920  D Quarter in KINGS NORTON  Volume 06D  Page 62
Title: Re: Just can’t find birth cert ?
Post by: Antony1977 on Sunday 31 August 25 12:47 BST (UK)
Would anyone be able to help with a birth certificate ref and death certificate ref for James Whitehead , father of Gladys ? All I know is that he retired from Gloucestershire Police in 1912, I don’t know anything else about him, I would like to try and locate his grave

I don’t know where to even start when I don’t have any details , I’m assuming ( often a bad thing to do) is that he never strayed far from his birth area during his life .

He lived in Northleach Gloucs when he was a serving Police officer and that’s where his daughter was born.

We believe this to be his marriage :


Marriages Jun 1882   
BIGNELL    Rose        Tetbury    6a   617     

Whitehead    James         Tetbury    6a   617   

And this is the daughter

  WHITEHEAD, GLADYS  MARY      BIGNELL     
GRO Reference: 1891  S Quarter in NORTHLEACH  Volume 06A  Page 378

Gladys was from Windrush Gloucs on her wedding cert to William George Mallett , he has an address of Highgate Bham on the wedding cert.

Bham was where they lived upon getting married in 1955, James is listed as grooms father and ex police officer

Title: Re: Just can’t find birth cert ?
Post by: KGarrad on Sunday 31 August 25 14:12 BST (UK)
FreeBMD.org.uk is free to use ;)
Title: Re: Just can’t find birth cert ?
Post by: BumbleB on Sunday 31 August 25 14:34 BST (UK)
The banns for James' and Rose's marriage, available on Ancestry, were read on 2, 9 and 16 April 1882 at Cherrington.

Title: Re: Just can’t find birth cert ?
Post by: Antony1977 on Sunday 31 August 25 14:39 BST (UK)
FreeBMD.org.uk is free to use ;)

Hi , I know , however with out a DOB of birth and death and I would only class myself as a very basic family history researcher, I was hoping that one of the more experienced people on here would guide me using their knowledge of finding people using other relations

It’s also a very common name so I am drawing back loads, can anyone narrow it down ?!

James whitehead is named as grooms father at his sons wedding but it doesn’t say if he is alive or dead.
Title: Re: Just can’t find birth cert ?
Post by: Ladyhawk on Sunday 31 August 25 15:02 BST (UK)
Could this be his burial address on Gladys m/c Windrush

James Whitehead Age   76
Burial 14 Jul 1936 Windrush, Gloucestershire
Edit to add Gloucestershire, England, Church of England Burials, 1813-1988 - image on Anc*y

Possible entry GRO  - an instant digital image available £3

WHITEHEAD, JAMES       76 
GRO Reference: 1936  S Quarter in NORTHLEACH  Volume 06A  Page 413

Title: Re: Just can’t find birth cert ?
Post by: Ladyhawk on Sunday 31 August 25 15:13 BST (UK)
1921c James b1860 Redwick  Rose Whitehead b1859 Tetbury and married Dau Mabel Irene b1894 Northleach, Residence Windrush, Gloucestershire

Edit to add Redwick is in the reg district Thornbury possible birth entry

WHITEHEAD, JAMES       mmn ROBINS 
GRO Reference: 1860  M Quarter in THORNBURY  Volume 06A  Page 169

Whitehead/Robins Marriage on Anc*y
Wiltshire, England, Church of England Marriages and Banns, 1754-1924

George Whitehead Age 21 railway porter
Marriage 18 Apr 1857 Melksham, Wiltshire
Father   Thomas Whitehead, deceased
Spouse   Harriett Robins father Henry labourer

m/c of James & Rose would confirm his fathers name



Title: Re: Just can’t find birth cert ?
Post by: Antony1977 on Sunday 31 August 25 15:29 BST (UK)
1921c James b1860 Redwick  Rose Whitehead b1859 Tetbury and married Dau Mabel Irene b1894 Northleach, Residence Windrush, Gloucestershire

Thank you for your help , I’ve ordered the death certificate and son in law A R Wright registers the death as he was present at death, I will find out if one of the daughters married a Wright 👍🏻

What does 1921c mean?

And who is Dau Mabel Irene? Their child?

We only had these below as the children from James and Gladys

    WHITEHEAD, ELSIE  MAUD      BIGNELL     
GRO Reference: 1889  S Quarter in NORTHLEACH  Volume 06A  Page 378
   WHITEHEAD, GLADYS  MARY      BIGNELL     
GRO Reference: 1891  S Quarter in NORTHLEACH  Volume 06A  Page 378
Title: Re: Just can’t find birth cert ?
Post by: Ladyhawk on Sunday 31 August 25 15:38 BST (UK)
1921 census

Mabel Irene Whitehead is the dau of James Whitehead & Rose

Mabel Irene Whitehead
Baptism Date   25 Nov 1894
Baptism Place   Northleach, Gloucestershire, England
Father   James Whitehead Mother   Rose

Image on Anc*y
Mabel Irine Whitchead age 26
Marriage 30 Mar 1921 Windrush, Gloucestershire, England
Father   James , ex policeman
Spouse   Arnold Radway Wright
One witness James Whitehead

Added
WHITEHEAD, MABEL  IRENE     BIGNELL 
GRO Reference: 1894  D Quarter in NORTHLEACH  Volume 06A  Page 362

1901 census

Piece   2452
Folio   6
Page number   4
James Whitehead 41 Redwick, Police Constable
Rose Whitehead   41
Bessie Gertrude Whitehead   14
Elsie Maud Whitehead   11
Gladys May Whitehead   9
Mable Irene Whitehead   6




Title: Re: Just can’t find birth cert ?
Post by: Antony1977 on Sunday 31 August 25 15:49 BST (UK)
1921 census

Mabel Irene Whitehead is the dau of James Whitehead & Rose

Mabel Irene Whitehead
Baptism Date   25 Nov 1894
Baptism Place   Northleach, Gloucestershire, England
Father   James Whitehead Mother   Rose

Image on Anc*y
Mabel Irine Whitchead age 26
Marriage 30 Mar 1921 Windrush, Gloucestershire, England
Father   James , ex policeman
Spouse   Arnold Radway Wright
One witness James Whitehead

Added
WHITEHEAD, MABEL  IRENE     BIGNELL 
GRO Reference: 1894  D Quarter in NORTHLEACH  Volume 06A  Page 362

1901 census

Piece   2452
Folio   6
Page number   4
James Whitehead 41 Redwick, police Constable
Rose Whitehead   41
Bessie Gertrude Whitehead   14
Elsie Maud Whitehead   11
Gladys May Whitehead   9
Mable Irene Whitehead   6

Will have to renew ancestry in a bit, what are the images on Ancestry? We have an image of James in his police uniform , we found that via Gloucs police archives

Your help has been appreciated, just need to trace the graves now
Title: Re: Just can’t find birth cert ?
Post by: Ladyhawk on Sunday 31 August 25 15:55 BST (UK)
You can view the marriage details for Mabel, burial James and the baptisms, you will be able to view the 1921 census

https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=832955.468 - have a read at this link about renewal

1891 Piece   2036
Folio   119
James Whitehead   31
Rose Whitehead   31
Lilly R Whitehead   6
Bessie G Whitehead   4
Elsie M Whitehead   1


WHITEHEAD, BESSIE  GERTRUDE     BIGNELL 
GRO Reference: 1887  M Quarter in NORTHLEACH  Volume 06A  Page 378

GRO slow at the moment there is birth for Lily mmn Bignell

Lily Rose Whitehead
Baptism Date   19 Apr 1885
Baptism Place   Northleach, Gloucestershire, England
Father   James, Policeman Mother   Rose
Image on Anc*y Gloucestershire, England, Church of England Baptisms, 1813-1913


Title: Re: Just can’t find birth cert ?
Post by: Ladyhawk on Sunday 31 August 25 17:20 BST (UK)
I didn’t notice that Rose’s burial was on the same page as James

Rosa Whitehead [Rose ] Age 73 Burial 9 Aug 1933 Windrush, Gloucestershire
Image on Anc*y Gloucestershire, England, Church of England Burials, 1813-1988

WHITEHEAD, ROSA       73 
GRO Reference: 1933  S Quarter in NORTHLEACH  Volume 06A  Page 373

I can’t see their burial on findagrave https://www.findagrave.com/cemetery/2383658/st-peter- Church St Peter Churchyard Windrush, Cotswold District, Gloucestershire

For info.

As Transcribed on Anc*y

Mabel Grens Wright Age 29 Burial 3 Jan 1924 Windrush, Gloucestershire

WRIGHT, MABEL  IRENE     29 
GRO Reference: 1923  D Quarter in NORTHLEACH  Volume 06A  Page 470

Arnold Radway Wright Age   82 Burial 18 Sep 1976 Windrush, Gloucestershire