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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Down => Topic started by: pat77 on Sunday 27 July 25 18:32 BST (UK)
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I believe my great grandfather Thomas Wilson was born in County Down, 1868/1869. His parents were a Joseph Wilson and Mary Sloan. I cant find a marriage for them anywhere even in Emerald Ancestors etc. As for Thomas the only birth I can find around he right time with the right parents is Hans Wilson born 3rd October 1868. I know folk can grow up being called something different. My fathers siblings 4 of them are called something different from their birth certificate, For Instance my Uncle Enda, only found out when he died his real name was Lorenzo Kevin so what chance do we have . lol
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i have shinn, Newry came up and i see Joseph Wilson there in the Griffiths Valuation
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Here is the birth of Hans Wilson- for information.
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/birth_returns/births_1868/03423/2256049.pdf
The residence is Shinn.
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I believe my great grandfather Thomas Wilson was born in County Down, 1868/1869. His parents were a Joseph Wilson and Mary Sloan.
Where does this information come from? Ages can vary from record to record.
What religion were the family? Did The family stay in Ireland?
As for Thomas the only birth I can find around he right time with the right parents is Hans Wilson born 3rd October 1868.
Here's the birth you found- Shinn townland (Newry is the registration district, Donaghmore the sub-district)
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/birth_returns/births_1868/03423/2256049.pdf
https://www.townlands.ie/down/lordship-of-newry/newry-down-portion/ouley/shinn/
Note that the current Finnard road goes through the lower end of Shinn.
Which brings me to a submitted tree on Family Search which shows another son Thomas born 1869 Finnard-
https://www.familysearch.org/en/tree/person/details/L1XV-9WX
I haven't yet found Thomas' birth registration.
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The Valuation Revision books show Joseph Wilson as tenant living in a house in Shinn townland (from the first book in 1866 until crossed out in 1880).
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The Wilsons were protestant , On scottish records and census thats where this Shinn comes from. I beleive you are right with the 1869 and Hans was a brother, Also he seems to have had another brother Samuel who lived in the same row of houses in Netherton New Kilpatrick doing the same job so maybe Samuel got Thomas the job at his brickworks, Thomas was a lodger with my gt,gt,gt grandmother and my great grandmother lived with her. Thomas got her pregnant and the rest is history. he beat her every time he was drunk which was often.
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I should say that Thomas and Samuel both married and died in Glasgow, Scotland. Don't know what happened to the parents Joseph and Mary after they left Shinn in 1880
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I can't see a marriage in Ireland and also checked Scotland in case the parents married there but nothing showing up in either place.
It's possible that Thomas Wilson was actually born before the start of civil registration in Ireland (1864).
Have you checked Scottish census records to see if you can spot parents also in Scotland after 1880?
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Have you seen these in the census search forms?
https://censussearchforms.nationalarchives.ie/search/cs/details.jsp?id=21758
https://censussearchforms.nationalarchives.ie/reels/c19/007246687/007246687_00389.pdf
https://censussearchforms.nationalarchives.ie/reels/c19/007246687/007246687_00390.pdf
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Brilliant find, gaffy, and certainly explains problems finding marriage of parents as it seems they married before civil registration (1845 for non-Catholic marriages).
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Thanks again. That's the right family right enough. x
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I think I maybe found Samuels parents deaths, They disappeared after 1880 from Shinn. I found a death for Joseph Wilson on 4th April 1888 and Mary in 16th Jan 1879 at Gransha, Donaghmore, Newry which I think is is the right locale x
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....and Mary in 16th Jan 1879 at Gransha, Donaghmore, Newry...
Mary Ann died on 23 January 1879.
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1879/06532/4882561.pdf
Gransha townland
https://www.townlands.ie/down/lordship-of-newry/newry-down-portion/ouley/gransha/
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I might be on the wrong track here but the ages don’t seem to link up.
Joseph Wilson’s age is given as 80 yrs in 1888.
His son Joseph is the informant.
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1888/06180/4766966.pdf
In the death record posted by Kiltaglassan, Mary Ann is 68 yrs in 1879.
These seem old for births in late 1860s.
Am I mixing generations here?
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I think the ages in the death registrations are the problem here and that Joseph and wife Mary weren't quite as old as registered.
Looking at the census abstracts from 1851 census that gaffy found (reply #8) there were TWO couples named Joseph & Mary Wilson in Gransha townland at the time (possibly both men were cousins). In his application Samuel listed his parents as Joseph Wilson & Mary Sloan and said the children who should be found in 1851 were Margt, Elizth, Samuel & James. This would be the 2nd couple-
Joseph Wilson m.1843 Mary
Margt Wilson born c1843
Elizth Wilson born c1845
Samuel Wilson born c1847
James Wilson born c1849
We know that there was also a Thomas and Hans (1868) born after 1851.
If Mary was 68 when she died in 1879 she would have been born c1811 and thus married aged 32 which seem unlikely given the ages of the children.
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Thanks aghadowey.
I was thinking the same about the ages -often there are discrepancies.
It is still confusing.
The children you list are at regular intervals in the 1840s.
As yet no children found in the 1850s but then a possibility of one or two - Thomas and Hans in the late 1860s.
I am aware though, from my own family, even in recent times, that there can be gaps of 20+ years between the oldest and youngest in families.
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would the first joseph and mary married 1828 be the parents of the second joseph who married in 1843?
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Are your Thomas’ parents shown as Joseph and Mary Sloan in marriage and death records?
There is a Joseph Wilson in Gransha, in Griffiths Valuation.
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Yes, Joseph Wilson and Mary Sloan
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I looked again for every Thomas born in Ireland 5 years either side
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The death of Thomas
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That census was from here . Also note that when my great gran Maggie died in 1910 one year later Thomas again married to a woman who i believe was a relative, He had 6 children in the house and had to work so I think this women who was of or married to his mother's Sloan family was sent to help. Living in one room and kitchen with 8 people i guess its inevitible they married within a year
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I should say that Thomas and Samuel both married and died in Glasgow, Scotland. Don't know what happened to the parents Joseph and Mary after they left Shinn in 1880
I see that Samuel’s mother is given as Sloan on his death in 1926. Is she Mary?
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That census was from here . Also note that when my great gran Maggie died in 1910 one year later Thomas again married to a woman who i believe was a relative, He had 6 children in the house and had to work so I think this women who was of or married to his mother's Sloan family was sent to help. Living in one room and kitchen with 8 people i guess its inevitible they married within a year
The marriage was to Margaret Sloan - nee Smith, so if there was a Sloan connection it would be through her husband.
I think this may be her in 1911 in Newry.
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Newry_North_Urban/Mount_Pleasant/256151/
She married David Sloane in 1897, Newry
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/marriage_returns/marriages_1897/10452/5806216.pdf
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I hadn't seen that census before but its definately her. Six months later she was married to Thomas. Thomas was a horrid man. Drunk, wife beater. Margaret the second wife seemingly was a lovely women and the kids all liked her. She didn't put up with him for long and left him to return to Newry. My Granda was would have been around 5 going on 6 then and his brother 2 years older. She wanted to take the two youngsters back to Newry with her but Thomas wouldn't let her. I had found the David Sloan marriage a couple of years ago. Thanks
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So if there was a Sloan connection, it looks as though it was likely through her husband.
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Yes, that's right .David was most likely a cousin on the maternal side