RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Cumberland => Topic started by: Sessylt on Sunday 27 July 25 02:16 BST (UK)
-
Hello all,
I am looking into the family of Selina Row and Henry Tyson. I have records confirming their marriage in Whitehaven in 1865. Their dates of birth are vague; Selina was certainly born in the 1840s, with an unclear year and a variable age depending on the document. Nothing unusual for the 1800s, but annoying. For Henry, there are just too many Henry Tysons – this overrepresentation of the surname Tyson, even with Selina Tysons, is indeed part of what is causing this dead end. Moving on, they have a son Henry Tyson in 1866, a daughter Hannah in 1868 who dies in infancy, a daughter Catherine Tyson in 1870, and a son James Tyson in 1873 who dies in infancy. The last time Selina and Henry the older are ever seen is in the 1871 census. I know from his death certificate (obtained at the GRO) that Henry died in 1875. Catherine seems to be in the 1881 census "boarding" at school. Even if this were to imply her mother died, I can find no appropriate death for a Selina Tyson of the right age at all, even well into the 20th century. Henry the younger is a little easier to track, and I think I have him as an apprentice in the 1881 and 1891 census, but he then vanishes. Catherine seems to have married a Cecil Henry Elmes and then to have died in 1934; her death certificate mentions her middle name is Gertrude, which "clashes" with her birth certificate.
I'm left a bit puzzled with the whole thing. I cannot figure out where Selina or Henry the younger ended up, nor if Catherine Elmes is the right Catherine. The fact the GRO doesn't give marriage certificates easily (as digital images) doesn't help matters.
-
Assuming I have the correct Henry and Selina TYSON - in 1871 at Low Mill, Saint John:
Henry TYSON 55 Muncaster (farm labourer)
Selina 28 Ireland
Henry 4 Gosforth
Catherine 1 Saint John
RG10 5263/54 pg 6
I notice in the 1861 census for Henry TYSON (45, Muncaster, ploughman) it says he is a widower. (Servant with John WALKER, farmer, at Gosforth)
RG9/3953/77 page 9
Henry TYSON (31, Muncaster, farm labourer) widower, is with John WALKER at Gosforth in 1851.
HO107/2437/508 pg12
-
Who notified Henry’s death? And where was it?
-
An image for the marriage of Catherine Gertrude Tyson is on FindMyPast. It took place in India, and she is a nurse. Father is Henry.
The ceremony is Catholic.
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/image-share/98e36fe2-0ae3-4cca-8663-97ce0a17dfbd
-
Who notified Henry’s death? And where was it?
Had a look and he was in the Bootle Workhouse and the Master of the Workhouse Thomas Smith reported his death
-
Hmm. That doesn’t sound much like an Esq.
there is a Henry with a Catherine the right age, a farmer of 150 acres! But I cannot find him after 1881 either, he is not at Ravenglass :'(
1871 & 1881 Hobkin Ground, West Broughton, Ulverston, Lancashire & Cumberland, England
-
I probably reported it badly and William Smith was the Master of the Workshouse
I think this in 1861 Henry was a Widower and Ploughman age 45 b Muncaster - living at Gosforth
-
No, it was fine.
It’s just the father Henry in the 1907 marriage is said to be an Esq. of course Catherine could be elevating herself after the event.
-
I think that is probably the case. My great grandfather did the same thing when he married!!
-
Think this must be the one who married Cecil Elmes
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/image-share/8bd95ac1-e001-4c6f-b035-6ff2a4bd6362
-
I would feel happier if I could account for the other Catherine, but failing so far.
This is her birth (also with no Gertrude!)
TYSON, CATHARINE MILLIGAN
GRO Reference: 1870 M Quarter in ULVERSTONE Volume 08E Page 750
-
Ravenglass is only a few miles from Muncaster and Ulverston is much further away
-
Ravenglass is only a few miles from Muncaster and Ulverston is much further away
Yes.
But that is why I’d like to find the other Catherine later. To clearly get rid of her.
-
One tree lists her as marrying Fred Swindlehurst in 1893 in Ulverston
-
Here is the “other” Henry’s death which is AFTER the Indian marriage.
So that confirms?? The Indian marriage is the daughter of Selina?? Or at least, is not the daughter of this Henry and his wife (Sarah Milligan)
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/image-share/e3934ad9-c9ce-4b3a-84ea-473e445f008e
-
Selina 1861? Living at Egremont - all born Ireland
John Roe 60 Ag Lab
Catherine Roe 55 W Aife
Saleena Roe 15 Daughter
Added - In 1871 I think Henry and wife Selina are living next door to her married sister and family Margaret Obrien and husband Michael. In later census years Margaret lists her birthplace as Co Armagh, Ireland
-
22 June 1934 Newspaper: Yorkshire Post and Leeds Intelligencer
£2,000 BEQUEST TO THE BISHOP OF HEXHAM
For Charitable Purposes in Diocese
Mrs. Catherine Gertrude Elmes, of West Park Road, Kew Gardens, Surrey formerly of Perceval Avenue, Belsize Park, London, N. W., who died on May 15, widow of Dr. Cecil Henry Elmes, C. B. E., formerly of Calcutta, leaving £84,427, with net personalty £82,304, left:-
£2,000 to the Royal Infirmary, Edinburgh, to endow a bed or beds or cot or cots in the names of her late husband and herself.
£2,000 to the Roman Catholic Bishop of Hexham-and-Newcastle, for such charitable purposes in the diocese as he shall consider most deserving, and she expressed the hope that he will have masses said for the repose of the souls of her late husband and self.
£2,000 to St. Dominic's Priory, Southampton Road, Kentish Town, and she requested that masses be sald for the repose of the souls of her late husband and self.
Her death was the subject of an inquest, but the newspaper report on this provides no new information.
-
Thank you all for the information and help! I realised a bit late that I should probably have listed all of my sources! Here is what I had; I have only added the reference for Henry in the 1851 census, which I didn't know about (only 1861).
Selina Row
England and Wales Census, 1861 (RG09 3952/59 3)
England and Wales Census, 1871 (RG10 5263/54 6)
Re: the O'Briens, I was able to painstakingly confirm this as Selina's father John Roe's death certificate lists an O'Brien grandson as the informant.
Henry Tyson
England and Wales Census, 1851 (HO107 2437/508 12)
England and Wales Census, 1861 (RG09 3953/77 9)
England and Wales Census, 1871 (RG10 5263/54 6)
Death Certificate of Henry Tyson
The death certificate corresponds to the Bootle Workhouse Henry Tyson. I had always assumed the family was quite poor, but as I've said, the sheer number of Tysons (and Rowes) in Cumberland confuses matters quite a bit. One of the possible fathers for Henry was a known local thief. If Catherine Gertrude Elmes is the right Catherine, and did not exaggerate the "Esq.", I agree that we could probably cautiously exclude Workhouse Henry.
Henry Tyson (son)
England, Births and Christenings, 1538-1975 (1866 in Gosforth)
England and Wales Census, 1871 (RG10 5263/54 6)
England and Wales Census, 1881 (RG11 5197/76 8)
England and Wales Census, 1891 (RG12 4322/71 14)
Sorry if the birth record isn't cited in the best way, but I never quite figured out what Ancestry was actually representing with that collection.
Catherine Tyson
England and Wales Census, 1871 (RG10 5263/54 6)
An interesting possible connection I've noticed is that Catherine Elmes seems to bequeath something to members of a Bell family; Henry (son), if I have the right person in 1881 and 1891, was a boarder with a Bell family.
The other two children, Hannah and James, have their births and deaths in the GRO, but I'm not sure of the details. I do have James Tyson's birth certificate from the GRO:
6th June 1873, Church Lane Egremont | James | Boy | Henry Tyson | Selina Tyson, formerly Rowe | Farm labourer | + The mark of Selina Tyson, mother, Church Lane Egremont | 9th July 1873 | John Walter Registrar
I'm not sure his death certificate will provide much extra information, and haven't ordered a digital image of it (yet), but it's in the GRO for the next quarter of the same year. Hannah was born in 1868 and died in 1869.
As a post-script, if anyone is interested in chasing up Henry's father, I am mostly (tentatively) convinced by a marriage between a Henry Tyson and Elizabeth Benson in St James, Whitehaven, on 2 Sep 1815, but have not found the corresponding birth certificate.
-
A Bell is mentioned in the inquest report.
Free OCR text, subject to errors!
Richmond Herald, 19 May 1934
WOMAN'S SUDDEN DEATH. The sudden death of Mrs. Catherine Gertrude Elm, aged 63, late of 1, West Park-avenue, North Sheen, on Tuesday, formed the subject of an inquest on Friday, conducted by Dr. W. J. Lord (the East Surrey Coroner). Miss K. Bell, of 20, Cavendish-square, said the deceased had suffered from rheumatism and heart trouble, and had been advised to enter a hospital, but she refused. Witness said she saw Mrs. Elm on Tuesday morning and she then appeared to be quite well. Ernest Alfred Tyler, of Ennerdale-road, Kew, said that at 9.45 on Tuesday evening Mrs. Elm called at his house in a very excited state. He and his wife tried to soothe her and suggested that she should see a doctor. At this she became very violent. Witness sent for Dr. Robinson, who gave her several injections. At first these had no apparent effect and she resisted all efforts to get her to bed. Later, however, she fell into a deep sleep. At 11.50 her breathing became difficult and her face went almost black; sho died a few minutes later. Inspector Clements said that the deceased made a rambling statement over the 'phone, as a result of which he went round to the house and found her in a very violent state. Dr. Robinson said that the post-mortem revealed that the lungs were congested and the heart was enlarged. Death due to heart failure. A verdict of Death from natural causes was recorded.
Death announcement in the same edition
ELMES.—On May 15th, 1934, at 1, West Park-road, Kew Gardens, Catherine Gertrude Elmes, widow of Dr. Cecil Henry Elmes, C. B. E., formerly of Calcutta.
Catherine Gertrude Elmes buried at Richmond Cemetery, 18 May 1934
https://www2.richmond.gov.uk/lbrburials/(S(zdzbaysssj2yaeqqxltdh2e0))/DeceasedDetails.aspx?t=dec&id=255451
-
A tree (which despite having a photograph of the grave, has the wrong date of death for Catherine ) has this note
“ Catherine was 16 when her mother died she was "adopted" by her cousin Henry Tyson”
There is a very glamorous portrait too.
Same tree says
28 Dec 1879
Henry and his son, also Henry died in the Tay Bridge disaster on Dec 28th 1879. their bodies were never found.
There is a lot of other stuff that doesn’t makes sense! Won’t keep repeating it. You have probably seen it already.
-
Catherine seems to be in the 1881 census "boarding" at school.
Not sure if this has already been mentioned, Catherine is not "boarding" at school, she is in the Whitehaven Union Workhouse.
RG11/5190/92 pg11
-
Catherine Leece BELL was one of the executors of Catherine Gertrude ELMES' will. She appears to be the daughter of William and Mary Ann BELL born 1874 Millom. As mentioned, Henry TYSON (24, joiner, Gosforth) is boarding with this family in 1891.
In 1911 Catherine Leece BELL (36, hospital nurse, Millom) is at St Andrew's Club, Mortimer St, Marylebone.
Catherine Leece BELL is "of 20 Cavendish Square" in 1934 (in a Legal Notice about the estate of Catherine Gertrude ELMES)
Tuesday, July 3, 1934
Publication: The Times