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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: close1 on Friday 25 July 25 14:18 BST (UK)
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It's a bit of a addendum from yesterdays post about the marriage certificate,
I brought a marriage of Elizabeth Harris thinking it may brake a brick wall, strangely it's added a another layer.
However I can't find any records of her before the marriage such as a birth that lines up with the birth year and no censuses.
She married Charles Hands aged 20 on 10/06/1872 (Birmingham) and her father on the certificate was called Henry who was a "House Steward".
The address in the marriage certificate has another family living there in 1871 and the witnesses are unrelated to any member of the families.
Her Death Certificate says was 65 on 13/03/1917 and all the censuses after 1881 says she was born in 1852 Southall, Middlesex .
Any help much appreciated.
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There is an Elizabeth Harris age 8 bn Acton, Middx living with grandparents William & Elizabeth M Young in 1861 Acton - not that far from Southall :-\
RG09
Piece 781
Folio 34
Page 30
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In 1851, William and Elizabeth Young have two daughters with them. Caroline Hillary - unmarried so I suspect she is his step daughter age 21 and Sarah Young age 6. There is a birth reg for an Elizabeth Harris mmn Hillary Q3 1853 Brentford district.
Can't yet find a marriage for Caroline to a Mr Harris - hopefully Henry
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Caroline Hillary baptised 4th April 1830 Acton, parents George (occ-carpenter) & Elizabeth).
SS
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In 1841 Elizabeth Hillary with Caroline and other (assumed) children. Possibly widowed as George not with family.
No sign of Caroline after 1851.
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Why did Elizabeth Harris leave London for Birmingham? Did she have family there?
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In 1841 Elizabeth Hillary with Caroline and other (assumed) children. Possibly widowed as George not with family.
No sign of Caroline after 1851.
Caroline married William Henry Frapwell 1857--image on Anc*, William died the following year 1858.
SS
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Caroline married William Henry Frapwell 1857--image on Anc*
SS
Well spotted
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Maybe Caroline's a widow by 1861 in Bathwick, listed as Carole Frapwick - lodging house keeper
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1861--3, Daniel Street, Bathwick, Bath, Somerset, England
Carole Frapwell Head Widow Female 31 1830 Lodging house keeper Middlesex, England
SS
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1861--3, Daniel Street, Bathwick, Bath, Somerset, England
Carole Frapwell Head Widow Female 31 1830 Lodging house keeper Middlesex, England
SS
Yep that's the one, so did she marry again and head to Birmingham taking daughter with her?
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Possible new marriage.
Marriages Mar 1864
Cantle William Henry Bath 5c 1079
Ditcher Joseph Bath 5c 1079
Frapwell Caroline Bath 5c 1079
Thompson Selina Bath 5c 1079
SS
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Just found that as your message notification popped up ! - so husband no 3 (although I don't think she married Henry Harris)
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Caroline married William Cantle, as per 1871 census.
CANTLE, TOM HARRY HILLARY
GRO Reference: 1867 J Quarter in BATH Volume 05C Page 682
SS
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Elizabeth is with the Cantles in 1871 at Bathwick
Elizabeth Harris Niece - Female 17 Day school teacher bn Acton, Middlesex,
RG10
Piece 2478
Folio 26
Page 9
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Elizabeth is with the Cantles in 1871 at Bathwick
Elizabeth Harris Niece - Female 17 Day school teacher bn Acton, Middlesex,
RG10
Piece 2478
Folio 26
Page 9
Wel spotted rosie, I missed that.
SS
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Info only-more research needed.
HARRIS, WILLIAM ETHELBERT HILLARY
GRO Reference: 1849 J Quarter in BRENTFORD Volume 03 Page 1
HARRIS, ALICE HILLARY
GRO Reference: 1855 J Quarter in BRENTFORD Volume 03A Page 70
SS
NOT Caroline's children. Parents Alfred & Elizabeth
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Elizabeth is with the Cantles in 1871 at Bathwick
Elizabeth Harris Niece - Female 17 Day school teacher bn Acton, Middlesex,
RG10
Piece 2478
Folio 26
Page 9
Niece ???
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Niece = Step daughter of William Cantle by any other name ;D
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Info only-more research needed.
HARRIS, WILLIAM ETHELBERT HILLARY
GRO Reference: 1849 J Quarter in BRENTFORD Volume 03 Page 1
HARRIS, ALICE HILLARY
GRO Reference: 1855 J Quarter in BRENTFORD Volume 03A Page 70
SS
NOT Caroline's children. Parents Alfred & Elizabeth
Elizabeth Hillary
Father George Hillary, builder
Alfred Harris, tailor
Father John Harris, nurseryman
Marriage 22 Jul 1845 St George, Hanover Square
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Elizabeth is widowed and remarries in 1858 - might explain why any Harris children are elsewhere?
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I know it may be unlikely but could Elizabeth have being born abroad?
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I thought we already had her birth?
HARRIS, ELIZABETH
mmn HILLARY
Q3 1853 BRENTFORD Volume 03A Page 68
The various Harris chilldren are indeed split up all over the place
Alice Harris b 1855 appears in 1861 to be in a household that includes Sarah Young
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Info only-more research needed.
HARRIS, WILLIAM ETHELBERT HILLARY
GRO Reference: 1849 J Quarter in BRENTFORD Volume 03 Page 1
HARRIS, ALICE HILLARY
GRO Reference: 1855 J Quarter in BRENTFORD Volume 03A Page 70
SS
NOT Caroline's children. Parents Alfred & Elizabeth
Elizabeth Hillary
Father George Hillary, builder
Alfred Harris, tailor
Father John Harris, nurseryman
Marriage 22 Jul 1845 St George, Hanover Square
But when Elizabeth Harris married in Birmingham in 1872 she said her father was Henry Harris - house steward ???
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Elizabeth Hillary bapt 24 Aug 1828 at Acton d/o George (carpenter) and Elizabeth Mary
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Have we got the wrong Elizabeth Harris? There is another one also Q3 1853 Brentford vol 3A p 33, mmn Woodley
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That is quite possible Lizzie, it was only a suggestion that we have been trying to eliminate.
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I know it may be unlikely but could Elizabeth have being born abroad?
If her place of birth of Southall is wrong she could have been born anywhere in the UK. I would have expected her to have at least lived in that area to have given it as her place of birth.
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Morning Lizzie and Rosie, what would determine who's mother Elizabeth's mother is, the birth cert with mmn Hillary?
SS
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Elizabeth (mmn Hillary) looks like she is Elizabeth Hillary's daughter (we had all thought Caroline's) that would make her being a niece in 1861 correct, as Elizabeth Hillary was Caroline's older sister. But the father of Elizabeth (mmn Hillary ) is the wrong Mr Harris.
Now on the trail of a Harris / Woodley marriage.
Also no luck with a Henry Harris - house steward on censuses. Too many just down as servant. Tried footman and butler as occupations as he rose up the ranks to steward. Of course his occupation could have been "bigged up" on the marriage record. Seen it more than once in my family!
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The father could also have been invented :-\
At the moment SS I am not convinced that the birth certificate mmn Hillary is necessary ;)
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Thanks you for the suggestions, I did a ancestry search some of the names and I saw a tree for Adolphus.
Although their information may be incorrect, They had sources for Elizabeth Harris and it's suggested that Elizabeth was not married but may not the Elizabeth I'm searching for.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/7814/records/4911625?tid=48440187&pid=230153255471&ssrc=pt
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That link is showing Elizabeth Sarah Harris who was born at Southall Green on the census that they have attached. She was baptised at Southall with parents George and Caroline 04 Mar 1854
Marriage Mar qtr 1853
HARRIS George
OLLERHEAD Caroline
Uxbridge 3a 37
HARRIS, ELIZABETH SARAH mmn OLLERHEAD
GRO Reference: 1854 March Quarter in UXBRIDGE UNION Volume 03A Page 33
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There are census records for a single Elizabeth Harris bn c1852 bn Acton until at least 1911.
As there are 2 Elizabeth Harris births registered in Brentford RD c1853 and we have looked at one of them it may be worth you purchasing the other birth certificate as a PDF (£3) if only to establish who she is. I can't see a Harris/Woodley marriage either to confirm her parents
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Elixabeth Harris / Hands is consistent with her pob in 3 censuses and an age giving a year of birth as 1852. As the census is taken in early April, that gives a birth range of Qs 2,3 & 4 of 1851 and Q1 1852. Maybe, as has already been suggested, father was made up. But details seem a bit too specific, possibly a stepfather called Henry Harris with the occupation of House Steward/ butler/ footman/ servant
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There are census records for a single Elizabeth Harris bn c1852 bn Acton until at least 1911.
As there are 2 Elizabeth Harris births registered in Brentford RD c1853 and we have looked at one of them it may be worth you purchasing the other birth certificate as a PDF (£3) if only to establish who she is. I can't see a Harris/Woodley marriage either to confirm her parents
Ms Woodley may have been a widow and married under the name of her first husband. I can only see one child with the Harris / Woodley combination in the right area. Maybe an a 30-40 yo mother having a single child with new husband
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FWIW George and Caroline were in the Birmingham area in 1861 with dau Elizabeth b Southall and also a son. George was on the railways.
Jane :-)
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This is the father's name and occupation from the marriage certificate from the image.
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I had a situation with a family with my other side of the family tree where the a female widower remarried then when she died a few years later.
The current husband then remarried to the step daughter so maybe that Caroline had another child outside of marriage as then the mother's maiden name could be the same as her own mother's
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I think I can rule out the Elizabeth Harris born to Alfred and Elizabeth.
I found a baptism record for Elizabeth in Hillingdon, 1873
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/1558/records/4438433?tid=&pid=&queryId=a39e4d2c-a36f-48ae-84b3-3096cf20f7d0&_phsrc=dPp770&_phstart=successSource&_gl=1*6epun1*_up*MQ..*_ga*Mjg1MTExMDUxLjE3NTM2NDI1Nzk.*_ga_4QT8FMEX30*c2Q5ZGRlMmIwLTUzYzctNDM0NC04MDE2LTJmYjI3Njk2MDdhYSRvMSRnMCR0MTc1MzY0MjU3OCRqNjAkbDAkaDA.*_ga_LMK6K2LSJH*c2Q5ZGRlMmIwLTUzYzctNDM0NC04MDE2LTJmYjI3Njk2MDdhYSRvMSRnMCR0MTc1MzY0MjU3OCRqNjAkbDAkaDA.
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Just wondering, do the registry office keep the registration for the wedding. Not the certificate but the application form?
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I don't know if it's her but i may have found her. On the GRO website, there was a birth for Sarah Elizabeth Harris, Uxbridge Union. 1852 MMN Mills. I found a census record of her in 1861.
I think that on the marriage certificate that her father's name was Henry. But on the assumption that none of Elizabeth's sons had Henry as a first or second name. Her children were Joseph and Frank James. I swapped Henry's name for James and there was a baptism for Elizabeth in Norwood.
In the 1861 census, the occupation of James was Valet so I'm hoping guessing thats him
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/8767/records/8410050?tid=&pid=&queryId=e8b72390-3d6a-44b3-a028-f1a5a7a61562&_phsrc=HvT5512&_phstart=successSource
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Have you located the family after the 1861 census :-\
HARRIS, ELIZA mmn MILLS
GRO Reference: 1849 S Quarter in UXBRIDGE UNION Volume 03 Page 387
HARRIS, SARAH ELIZABETH mmn MILLS
GRO Reference: 1851 S Quarter in UXBRIDGE UNION Volume 03 Page 440
James was listed as a Servant on both baptisms
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James Harris(s) is in the household of John Crabb at Gt Baddow in 1871 without the rest of the family, also there in 1881 without the family though is noted as married on both entries.
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I think I found Elizabeth in the 1871 census, but no look for either her mother or sister yet
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/7619/records/27360100?tid=&pid=&queryId=3c8360e7-9bc6-4fa3-8398-be8b0cf485e2&_phsrc=HLi2811&_phstart=successSource
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A possible for Eliza:
25 Mar 1876 at St Marylebone Parish Church
Henry Coles f/a Bachelor, Engineer of St Thomas, Portman Square. Father: Thomas Coles, Engineer
Eliza Harris f/a Spinster of St Marylebone. Father: James Harris, Private Attendant
Both signed
Witnesses: J Baldwin, C? Drabble
1881 at 21 Blandford Street, Marylebone - RG11/143/20/32
Henry Coles 35 Engine Fitter b Sidmouth, Devon
Eliza 31 wife b Southall, Middlesex
Fredk 2 son b Marylebone
COLES, FREDERICK mmn HARRIS
GRO Reference: 1878 S Quarter in MARYLEBONE Volume 01A Page 558
ADDED: By 1891 they are in Elswick, Newcastle, transcribed on Anc. as Cales: RG12/4197/18/29
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I found Eliza in the 1901 and 1911 census.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/2352/records/36974251
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/7814/records/30516649
Still no look for her mother though
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This makes no sense at the moment, but since James was in Great Baddow in 1871 & 1881 as a servant to John Crabb it seems too much of a coincidence not to be connected.
There is an article in the Chelmsford Chronicle 31 Dec 1880 about the suicide at Great Baddow of David Spackman, coachman to Mrs Crabb (who I think is the wife of Richard H Crabb). A witness at the inquest was "Harriet Harris, wife of James Harris of Great Baddow"
The only James Harris I can see in Great Baddow in 1881 is 'your' James, and the only Harriet Harris is on the same census page, just a few properties away:
Harriet Harris 54 b Wyke, Dorset
Harriet Hansford 22 Niece b Great Power(?) Street, City, Middlesex
Beatrice Young 8 Visitor b Woolwich, Kent
By 1891 James & Harriet are back in London, at 73 Pulford Street, St George Hanover Square
James Harris 63 born Brentford, Middx, Coffee Tavern Keeper
Harriet 63 wife b Wyke, Dorset
Harriet 28 Niece b City of London
also three boarders and a servant
(Edited to correct spelling!)
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1 July 1870, Holy Trinity, Paddington
James Harris 44 Widower, Valet of 3 Woodfield Villas. Father: James Harris (deceased) Carpenter
Harriet Hansford 44 Spinster of 3 Woodfield Villas. Father: Robert Hansford (deceased) Farmer
Both signed
Wits: Robert Robertson & Ann Knowle (?)
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1 July 1870, Holy Trinity, Paddington
James Harris 44 Widower, Valet of 3 Woodfield Villas. Father: James Harris (deceased) Carpenter
Harriet Hansford 44 Spinster of 3 Woodfield Villas. Father: Robert Hansford (deceased) Farmer
Both signed
Wits: Robert Robertson & Ann Knowle (?)
That could explain why i can't find the Elizabeth the mother
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I would say so, although finding the correct death may be hard as its not exactly a common name and she could be anywhere :(
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Does anyone have a subscription to findmypast. I did a search and there is blank spaces for first and last name as well as year of birth whilst i was searching for Elizabeth.
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/search/results?sourcecategory=census%2c%20land%20%26%20surveys&collection=census&firstname=sarah&firstname_variants=true&lastname=harris&lastname_variants=true&eventyear=1871&eventyear_offset=2&yearofbirth=1852&yearofbirth_offset=2&keywords=southall&sourcecountry=great%20britain&sid=999
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Sorry I'm not sure what you're asking?
One is the 1871 census you already posted the Ancestry link for (attendant at Essex Lunatic Asylum), and the other is the daughter of George & Caroline.
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In my search, this is what i get.
Harris
Elizabeth Sarah
1850
—
1871
1871 England, Wales & Scotland Census
South Weald, Billericay, Essex, England
Harris
Elizabeth S
1854
—
1871
1871 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Warkworth, Banbury, Northamptonshire, England
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1871
1871 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Hayes Precinct of Norwood, Uxbridge, Middlesex, England
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Managed to copy the transcript link
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=GBC%2F1871%2F0003200096
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I wont see what you see because I have a sub.
The first one is the one you posted from Ancestry (the attendant at Essex Lunatic Asylum), the second is the daughter of George & Caroline and the third hasn't had her name transcribed at all but is the infant daughter of a family named Ayland and was born on the day of the census.
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Thank you for the help, when i searched on FindMyPast, I saw the last result and maybe it was Elizabeth and it wasn't transcribed properly.