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General => Ancestral Family Tree DNA Testing => Topic started by: ReadyDale on Tuesday 22 July 25 15:40 BST (UK)

Title: Ancestry DNA Match
Post by: ReadyDale on Tuesday 22 July 25 15:40 BST (UK)

Hoping a DNA expert can help me out.
I am assisting a friend who has taken an Ancestry DNA test, to trying to discover who her unknown father is. Not necessarily to try to meet, just to help my friend "know how they fit" in the world.
Anyways, she has been fortunate to get a match (and they replied) which Ancestry is describing as a "first cousin once removed" apparently.
Just wondering how much this description of the link can be taken on face value. Or whether a certain degree of latitude should be exercised?
Advice gratefully received.

Title: Re: Ancestry DNA Match
Post by: Zaphod99 on Tuesday 22 July 25 16:03 BST (UK)

Try

https://dnapainter.com/tools/sharedcmv4



Zaph

Title: Re: Ancestry DNA Match
Post by: ReadyDale on Tuesday 22 July 25 16:08 BST (UK)

Ah, so that description is not to be taken too literally then 😐

Title: Re: Ancestry DNA Match
Post by: farmeroman on Tuesday 22 July 25 16:38 BST (UK)

Quote from: ReadyDale on Tuesday 22 July 25 16:08 BST (UK)

Ah, so that description is not to be taken too literally then 😐

I'm not sure about that. Yes there is some variation, but the level of DNA that would give that match would never be sufficient for that match to be her father.

Edit: I think I probably misread your original post - were you only saying that she has a familial match to that person?

Title: Re: Ancestry DNA Match
Post by: ReadyDale on Tuesday 22 July 25 17:02 BST (UK)

Sorry, just to clarify. Ancestry is saying the match is 1C1R.
Due to the age difference between my friend and the contact, it is pretty safe to assume that my friend is the "once removed" bit, being >30 years younger.
The contact has been very helpful on sharing their grandparents info, which I am in the process of working down two generations, which (if the 1C1R bit can be relied upon) would include my friend's father. Always assuming of course no more out of wedlock events 🤪

Title: Re: Ancestry DNA Match
Post by: Biggles50 on Tuesday 22 July 25 17:44 BST (UK)

The link that Zaph posted for you is a website best included in your Bookmarks.

Whatever a specific cM is, there is always a range of possible relationships.

Think of the suggested relationship as a “starter for 10” it gives beginning.

You seem to be on the right track but if you give us the actual cM we can possibly advise further.

Title: Re: Ancestry DNA Match
Post by: ReadyDale on Tuesday 22 July 25 18:26 BST (UK)

Thanks Zeph, for the link, and Biggles for the extra pointer.
I will need to go back to my friend for the cM info, as she only said 1C1R (and I don't really know enough about DNA to ask the right questions).
It might be another week or so, as I think she has to pay her monthly Anc sub after payday (other costs took preference)

Title: Re: Ancestry DNA Match
Post by: ReadyDale on Saturday 26 July 25 22:32 BST (UK)

Ok. I have the relevant numbers now, but am not understanding what the linked diagram is saying to me (sorry).
This (alleged) 1C1R shares 686 cM (10%) with my friend.
How reliable is the 1C1R description?
Sorry again. This is a new thing for me.

Title: Re: Ancestry DNA Match
Post by: 4b2 on Saturday 26 July 25 23:06 BST (UK)

I am assuming the match is listed by Ancestry as paternal?

The suggested relationships by Ancestry are not worth paying much attention to. The pool of possible relationship can be quite large. But with the 30 year age gap and 686cM, 1C1R is most likely. So your friend's match is probably the cousin of her unknown father; meaning they would share a pair of grandparents.

What you will need to do from here is look at all the shared matches of this suggested 1C1R (using ProTools) and find out who the common ancestors are among them. You should be looking for other matches who share at least two more matches with the 1C1R in particular.

Some will have incomplete trees. Quickly open all the dead-end ancestors (with attention to ones in your relevant region), press to the search button at the top right of their profile, and find that person in public trees, or records. If you do this for all matches, you will probably find multiple matches with the same ancestors. This way you will be able to narrow down which side of the 1C1R's tree you relate to.

The relation is probably something like this:

Shared great-grandparents (e 1890)	Shared grandparents (e 1890)
Unknown grandfather (e 1920)	Macth's father (e 1920)
Unknown father (e 1950)	Suggested 1C1R (e 1950)
Your friend (e 1980)	-

But your friend has another unknown line, not shared with the 1C1R, so you'd need to go through your friend's matches listed as paternal and unknown, as briefly outlined above, starting with the closest matches. Though in about 5% of cases Ancestry gets the maternal or paternal side wrong. Find out how the matches are related, and note that down. Add a note to each one so you known who is accounted for and who is not.

Hopefully you will find close matches from your friend's other line. With the two rough lines known, you can then look for possible marriages between the line shared by the suggested 1C1R and the line he does not share. If you can do that you'll then have a list of possible sons, one of whom will be your friend's father.

If you can find both lines depends on how close the matches are, how many relatives you can establish common ancestors for, and how good you are at this research.

It's also possible your fiend's father was himself born out of wedlock, which will make it more complicated. Often DNA just gives clues and partial answers.

Title: Re: Ancestry DNA Match
Post by: ReadyDale on Saturday 26 July 25 23:20 BST (UK)

Hi 4b2

That's brilliant guidance. Makes me wish it wasn't so late today, otherwise I'd go back online.
My friend has given me access to her list of matches vast majority are maternal, apart from the one detailed above and about three others. 94/93/56 cM. So a lot smaller. Two of those are the same surname, so once I've finished working down the initial contacts branches, that may be my next target.
Let's hope a few people on that side did the "marriage before kids" bit 🤣
Thanks again

Title: Re: Ancestry DNA Match
Post by: 4b2 on Saturday 26 July 25 23:57 BST (UK)

Quote from: ReadyDale on Saturday 26 July 25 23:20 BST (UK)

Hi 4b2

That's brilliant guidance. Makes me wish it wasn't so late today, otherwise I'd go back online.
My friend has given me access to her list of matches vast majority are maternal, apart from the one detailed above and about three others. 94/93/56 cM. So a lot smaller. Two of those are the same surname, so once I've finished working down the initial contacts branches, that may be my next target.
Let's hope a few people on that side did the "marriage before kids" bit 🤣
Thanks again

93-94 are useful. They would probably be 3rd cousins, or half 2nd cousins or 2nd cousins once removed or 2nd cousins.
56 is more ambiguous. It could be a 2nd cousin to 4th cousin, with all the halves and removed too.

It seems there is enough to give strong co-ordinates at least.

Title: Re: Ancestry DNA Match
Post by: Murrell on Monday 25 August 25 22:13 BST (UK)

Hi I'm not sure how accurate Ancestry is l have a match 802 cm which they show as 1st cousin or 1/2 Aunt
Maybe wrong but to dna painted it should be 1/2 1st cousin or 1/2  Aunt Im inclined to take the dna  painter as more accurate

Title: Re: Ancestry DNA Match
Post by: Glen in Tinsel Kni on Monday 25 August 25 23:39 BST (UK)

Quote from: Murrell on Monday 25 August 25 22:13 BST (UK)

Hi I'm not sure how accurate Ancestry is l have a match 802 cm which they show as 1st cousin or 1/2 Aunt
Maybe wrong but to dna painted it should be 1/2 1st cousin or 1/2  Aunt Im inclined to take the dna  painter as more accurate

There  are 8 or 9 relationships at that amount but the Ancestry prediction will always veer to the closest (and use age information if available but often overlooks big same generation age differences), hence 1st cousin or 1/2 Aunt topping their list.

I have half siblings in their 80's but I'm in my 50's and have H1C1R's & half nieces/nephews who are older than I am. Ancestry doesn't always handle it well.

Title: Re: Ancestry DNA Match
Post by: Biggles50 on Tuesday 26 August 25 14:00 BST (UK)

Any match in the approx 80-110cM range can be very useful.

If it helps I am in my mid 70’s and in the absence of any other information then whatever Ancestry says I make a presumption that the DNA match in this range is likely to be a 3C and of an age of about c65.

Then I’ll build a wide tree around them going back to at least their 3xGGP’s if possible.

Refining the presumption along the way as needed.

As part of the process I will look at Shared Matches and try to incorporate them in the tree.

Sometimes I’m lucky but if it is a case of no joy then the relationship is revisited.

As an actual set of examples, an Irish tree of 900 and about 20 DNA Cousins all linked into it.

Another one is an Italian tree of 700 and 4 close matches linked into with over 150 DNA Cousins who fit somewhere.

Hence why the crossed flags as my icon.

Title: Re: Ancestry DNA Match
Post by: louisa maud on Wednesday 27 August 25 15:49 BST (UK)

I had a DNA  done but not with Ancestry, it doesn't show maternal or paternal line, I suppose you could call it joint , how does one go about maternal  and paternal as separate  DNA 's, hope that makes sense.
Although I have been  researching my family for years it wasn't till I was gifted a test that I showed any interest,  it didn't  come  up with what I thought it would either

LM

Title: Re: Ancestry DNA Match
Post by: Glen in Tinsel Kni on Wednesday 27 August 25 17:51 BST (UK)

Quote from: louisa maud on Wednesday 27 August 25 15:49 BST (UK)

I had a DNA  done but not with Ancestry, it doesn't show maternal or paternal line, I suppose you could call it joint , how does one go about maternal  and paternal as separate  DNA 's, hope that makes sense.
Although I have been  researching my family for years it wasn't till I was gifted a test that I showed any interest,  it didn't  come  up with what I thought it would either

LM

In MH make a group, assign a coloured dot and name it paternal, repeat to make a maternal group. As you work out which side matches fit add them to the relevant group. If you already use grouping (eg by surname or family line(, you can add matches to multiple groups. 

Title: Re: Ancestry DNA Match
Post by: Biggles50 on Wednesday 27 August 25 22:37 BST (UK)

Quote from: louisa maud on Wednesday 27 August 25 15:49 BST (UK)

I had a DNA  done but not with Ancestry, it doesn't show maternal or paternal line, I suppose you could call it joint , how does one go about maternal  and paternal as separate  DNA 's, hope that makes sense.
Although I have been  researching my family for years it wasn't till I was gifted a test that I showed any interest,  it didn't  come  up with what I thought it would either

LM

As Glen suggests, use the grouping features.

Additionally I suggest buying an Ancestry DNA kit when they are next on an acceptable deal.

You will probably have vastly more useful DNA matches on Ancestry.

For me My Heritage 3 = Ancestry 125, that is DNA matches who are now linked into my trees.

On my Wife’s My Heritage 0 = 115 on Ancestry.

Hedging bets and testing with each useful company offers the more chances of solving those mysteries.

Good luck

Title: Re: Ancestry DNA Match
Post by: ReadyDale on Saturday 30 August 25 12:18 BST (UK)

Thanks for all the suggestions/comments/experiences. They are all most useful. Some I can't follow through, as (I think) they require a more advanced Anc sub than my friend has, and money is tight.
One question (and sorry if this is naive). In the Anc matches, I have filtered on just Paternal. Within that, when I look at each matches "Shared Matches", they seem fall in to two distinct groups that share (seemingly randomly) with others within that group, but not with the matches in the other group.
Is it a reasonable assumption that these two sub groups of the paternal matches represent my friend's paternal grandfather and paternal grandmother relations?
And further, if I work up a couple of trees for each side, they "should" (could) vector in at my friend's mysterious father?

Lastly (and more of an opinion thing)...
Why do people get tests done, appear as matches, only to not have trees and not have a user name that gives any clues how they might tie in? Not having a go in any way, just curious why.

Title: Re: Ancestry DNA Match
Post by: Glen in Tinsel Kni on Saturday 30 August 25 14:01 BST (UK)

Some just test to find their ethnicity, some discover DNA  isn't as black and white as they imagined, some discover a skeleton in the closet and turn their back on any further research.

Title: Re: Ancestry DNA Match
Post by: Biggles50 on Saturday 30 August 25 14:03 BST (UK)

Quote from: ReadyDale on Saturday 30 August 25 12:18 BST (UK)

Thanks for all the suggestions/comments/experiences. They are all most useful. Some I can't follow through, as (I think) they require a more advanced Anc sub than my friend has, and money is tight.
One question (and sorry if this is naive). In the Anc matches, I have filtered on just Paternal. Within that, when I look at each matches "Shared Matches", they seem fall in to two distinct groups that share (seemingly randomly) with others within that group, but not with the matches in the other group.
Is it a reasonable assumption that these two sub groups of the paternal matches represent my friend's paternal grandfather and paternal grandmother relations?
And further, if I work up a couple of trees for each side, they "should" (could) vector in at my friend's mysterious father?

Lastly (and more of an opinion thing)...
Why do people get tests done, appear as matches, only to not have trees and not have a user name that gives any clues how they might tie in? Not having a go in any way, just curious why.

Question?
Are you OK creating and populating a spreadsheet?

If yes, then look up The Leeds Method.

Create a spreadsheet that replicates what you see in the method and populate it with the DNA matches, including the shared matches.

It should be pretty clear as to which DNA matches are the ones to concentrate further research on.

Lastly, that is the £10,000 question.

A few reasons why:-

A lot of DNA kits are gifts and the recipient is only interested in the Admixture results.

Privacy, for whatever reason the DNA results are not wanted to be effectively shared.

The DNA test and subsequent tree build is more involved than they first thought.

People searching for unknown Parent(s) or Grandparent(s).

Realisation that using DNA results is more involved than they thought.

Odd user name like Fred1234 mean nothing and it may be that they want to keep the results to themselves due to family objections (we have had this posted and I also have a relation who is against my DNA being out there).

Title: Re: Ancestry DNA Match
Post by: ReadyDale on Tuesday 02 September 25 12:30 BST (UK)

Thanks Biggles.
Yes, I'm fine with spreadsheets. I'd started mapping like that in a very lo-tech manner, which I was thinking of upgrading. But didn't want to spend time doing that, if I was not on the right lines. Now you have confirmed, I have upgraded my spreadsheet, which has speeded things up no end, and clusters are popping up for me left, right and centre  ;D
Just need to do a bit more reading up on how to combine/split clusters for slightly different branches now.
Learning so much about this at the moment.
Thanks for all your help and guidance. Much appreciated.

Title: Re: Ancestry DNA Match
Post by: Zaphod99 on Tuesday 02 September 25 15:05 BST (UK)

Dale, in case you haven't found them, there are lots of presentations on YouTube. The difficult thing is finding a presenter who doesn't really irritate you.

Zaph

Title: Re: Ancestry DNA Match
Post by: ReadyDale on Tuesday 02 September 25 15:17 BST (UK)

 ;D I'll look out for a presenter that fits the bill

Title: Re: Ancestry DNA Match
Post by: ReadyDale on Wednesday 03 September 25 20:45 BST (UK)

Another couple of questions...
I am in the process of clustering Shared Matches.
If it comes back saying "[match name] and [my friend] have no shared matches", does that literally mean that only that match and my friend share those bits of DNA. Or might some shared matches drop in when Ancestry's server has churned a bit more?
Secondly, I am mapping Shared Matches. Some are forming lovely tidy squares (everyone in that cluster matches with everyone else in that cluster), whereas others are way more jagged. Can anyone conclusions be drawn from either pattern?
Thanks in advance

Title: Re: Ancestry DNA Match
Post by: Biggles50 on Wednesday 03 September 25 21:45 BST (UK)

You seem to be making progress, alas it can be a slog at times but one stage at a time does seem to be a reliable way to progress.

DNA recombination is the process of inheritance and it is random in how it works.  The next result is a unique person and hence in siblings what segments each inherent from each of their parents is very different.  Go back to more distant DNA Cousins and they may only share limited segments with another DNA Cousin and it is even possible that a third DNA Cousin does not share any DNA with one or both.  That does not mean that they are not biologically related it is just pot luck that the measured DNA sample gives the result.

To give an example, one of my Wife’s first Cousin has a Grandson who has taken a DNA test and he is a highish DNA match to her.  His Mother is on my Wife’s Maternal line and his Father just happens to also be related but going back to a MRCA on my Wife’s Paternal line in the late 1700’s. 

From this series of branches there are two DNA Cousins (2C to each other) who have a MRCA with my Wife.  Her Cousins Grandson is a DNA match to one but not to the other, such is the random way that DNA is inherited.

In answer to your clustering query can I suggest you read this, it is a link to a MyHeritage site:-

https://blog.myheritage.com/2019/02/introducing-autoclusters-for-dna-matches/

Hope this helps.